News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by iso1631 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @04:49AM (#30683023)
Americans consider sport to be

* American Football

* Basketball

* Baseball

* Ice Hockey

Of which Ice Hockey is the only one really played outside of America (and I believe even that's mostly Canada which is basically America)

And why not city would ever fund a private team's stadium (like PSD or Tottenham), they do sometimes fund national stadiums (like Wembley)

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by umanwizard on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:39AM (#30685098)
Basketball and baseball are both extremely popular in many countries outside of the US and Canada.

This is typical reverse-American-exceptionalism sneering, where someone assumes that because something differs between the US and the few countries they’re familiar with (usually all in Northern and Western Europe), it must be unique to the US.

Baseball is one of the most popular sports in at least Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, and Cuba.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by CRConrad on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @10:06PM (#30706766)
> Basketball and baseball are both extremely popular in many countries outside of the US and Canada.

Basketball, sure. But:

> Baseball is one of the most popular sports in at least Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, and Cuba.

Where "at least" is also simultaneously "at most", AFAIK. Six is not exactly "many". And, hey, since you're writing from an American perspective, Cuba doesn't exist, so it's only five. And Venezuela? Four. Taiwan will probably be part of the PRC soon, so we're down to three... And how significant is the Dominican Republic, really, in a global perspective? So you're left with pretty much just Japan and South Korea. And are any teams from there even in the "World" Series?

So, sorry -- and yes, I'm from Northern Europe and everything -- but you guys really make this "typical reverse-American-exceptionalism sneering" all too easy all too often. :-)

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by qq66 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:03AM (#30683110)
Basketball is a major sport worldwide, honestly probably #3 after soccer and cricket and ahead of tennis because of its popularity in China. Baseball and ice hockey are region-specific (Japan/DR/Cuba/Venezuela for baseball and Canada/Russia/Scandinavia for ice hockey).
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by CRConrad on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @10:16PM (#30706838)
> Canada/Russia/Scandinavia for ice hockey

The Nordic countries -- Finland is not in Scandinavia. Also Czechia, Slovakia, and perhaps Germany and Switzerland should also be counted. (Surely there can't be fewer hockey players there than there are baseball players in the Dominican Republic?)

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by toyg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:31AM (#30683303)
I'd be surprised if cricket was the second sport worldwide, it's not played outside the old British colonies. Granted, one of those ex-colonies is India...

Basketball is the second sport in Europe by number of participants, for sure.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by anon_123g987 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:40AM (#30684142)
By size of fan base, cricket is worldwide #2, basketball is #7.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport#Popularity

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by rjsw on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:09AM (#30683916)
Cricket is also played in places that Indians have emigrated to, like the US.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by sidr on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:49AM (#30684197)
It is played, almost exclusively, by said immigrants from the Indian subcontinent. So only in a handful of cities where there's a critical mass of them that are somewhat recently immigrated (and there is room for grounds).
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by dagw on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:47AM (#30684183)
"Played" as in a bunch of friends get together have a friendly game in the park on weekends or "played" as in a has an active pro league and a national teams that competes in major international tournaments?
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by Bhilai on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:33AM (#30685821)
Several (and by several I mean hundreds) leagues exist across various cities just in USA. They have properly organized tournaments and winners win prize money. Its not a bunch of friends who play in the park. These leagues have to maintain fields, proper playing gear and so on...

Here is just one example - http://www.bayareacricket.org/

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by arethuza on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:47AM (#30683785)
"Basketball is the second sport in Europe by number of participants, for sure."

Any references for that?

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by toyg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:38AM (#30684127)
(I should have said team sports, apologies)

It's the second most popular team sport in most European countries, including the major ones. It's the second one even in England, despite low visibility and significant competition by sports that don't really exist elsewhere [0].

[0] https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/news/36244/12069769/ba...

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by atchoo on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:40AM (#30685116)
Hmm. I know someone who works in the UK basketball industry and it's very niche as an organised sport. Attendance at local events is really low. Something that sums up basketball in the UK for me is that I have a local basketball court but the kids only play football on it. There will be ethnic/regional variation though so I'm interested in the real figures.

These are the only hard figures I can find and it puts basketball behind cricket:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/899184/basketball-partic...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/899199/cricket-participa...

It's ahead of rugby union but about the same if combining with the league variant (ignoring recent covid years).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/899308/rugby-union-parti...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/899302/rugby-league-part...

Something to bear in mind when comparing it as a "team sport" is that it's not quite like for like. Basketball is much more accessible like tennis - it can be played casually with a couple of friends. A lot of homes will have a hoop in the garden or driveway.

Cricket and rugby will mostly be organised teams, dedicated pitches etc. If the question was "do you play in a local sports team" then I expect basketball to not be comparable. There might be more people playing with a frisbee in a park than are members of a local rugby team but calling it "a more popular sport than rugby" would feel misleading by failing to account for different level of commitment/organisation required.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by notahacker on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:58AM (#30684661)
Number of participants isn't really the best gauge when we're talking about stadia. Basketball might be played in most British schools and casually by many more people in yards with a hoop, but few British people could name a single UK basketball team; our basketball league is essentially ignored by mainstream media. Rugby takes a lot more organization due to being an inherently dangerous sport especially without competent technique and refereeing, but international games see sellout crowds of 80,000 with millions more watching on TV.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by arethuza on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:07AM (#30684309)
Fascinating, thanks - I had no idea basketball was that popular - where I live I'd have said rugby was the obvious candidate for the second most popular team sport with other sports like shinty far behind it.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by beaconstudios on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:50AM (#30684208)
Yeah I would think it would be rugby. There's a fair few basketball courts in the UK (often combined with tennis courts) but professionally it's not on the radar at all. Less so even than ice hockey.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by toyg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:49AM (#30684586)
Rugby has minuscule participation rates outside of Britain, Ireland, and France. Which is why Italy can continue to take part in the 6 Nations despite being abysmal: because there is nobody else.

Even in England, by participation rates it edges rugby, because it's the second sport in populous inner cities.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by arethuza on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:38AM (#30685083)
I believe our friends in New Zealand are quite good at it too... ;-)
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by toyg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:15AM (#30686344)
The fact they insist on living in the other hemisphere kinda stops them from applying for the 6 Nations though ;)
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by beaconstudios on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:58AM (#30684667)
Do you have a source for that? I've just looked into it and while the data is sparse and the list after #1 Football varies in order, basketball doesn't make an appearance at all in the articles I've seen.

It does appear that basketball is very popular outside western Europe though, so I learned something today! It makes sense, I do enjoy basketball myself and think that a lot of sports in Europe persist on the weight of tradition moreso than their fun factor.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by astura on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:34AM (#30684093)
>Ice Hockey is the only one really played outside of America

So people really believe this shit?

Brittney Griner, a mega star in the WBNA, is currently being detained in Russia on drug charges. What was she doing in Russia in the first place? She was there playing professional basketball for a Russian team. She makes a magnitude larger salary playing in Russia than she does in the WBNA.

Baseball is a major sport in Japan and the Caribbean. There's even an MLB team in Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organized_baseball_lea...

A game very similar to American football (Canadian football) has been played in Canada since the late 1800s.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by llbeansandrice on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:58AM (#30686934)
> Of which Ice Hockey is the only one really played outside of America

This is hilariously false. Baseball is wildly popular outside of the US, in particular in Japan and the Dominican Republic. Basketball is also incredibly popular outside the US.

Just because it's not soccer and the people aren't white doesn't mean it's not popular. By that same metric baseball isn't even that popular in the US.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by srhngpr on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:16AM (#30683189)
Soccer is the most popular sport in the world and is now arguably the 4th most popular sport in the US placing it ahead of NHL (Ice Hockey) and it is fast expanding in reach and popularity across the country. Part of the reason for this is that it is generally a very accessible sport to both play and watch as a spectator. Even for the casual attendee, it provides a fun atmosphere to experience - you don't need to be a hardcore fan to enjoy it.

The most recent expansion team, Austin FC, sold out 100% of every home game in their inaugural season with an average of 20k+ attendees in a privately-funded city-owned stadium.

Also let's not forget about the USWNT who are the most successful team in international women's soccer.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by spullara on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:22AM (#30683231)
Of all the sports that sportsball people watch, this one is by far the most boring. Kind of amazing really.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by TulliusCicero on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:26AM (#30683249)
Really? I'm not into watching pro sports, but if I had to pick the most boring one it'd definitely be baseball. People barely even move, and at least in golf they manage to hit the ball somewhere basically every swing.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by mauvehaus on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:06AM (#30684304)
“Baseball is a slow, sluggish game, with frequent and trivial interruptions, offering the spectator many opportunities to reflect at leisure upon the situation on the field: This is what a fan loves most about the game”

- Edward Abbey

For what it's worth (vanishingly little), I say that basketball is the most boring sport: everyone runs to one end of the court and somebody shoots and does or doesn't score, then everyone runs to the other end of the court and the same thing happens. This repeats until the last minute or so on the clock, which takes an unbounded amount of time to play because of fouls and free throws.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by alistairSH on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:23AM (#30684910)
True for the NBA and most of the college season. But March Madness is always entertaining. IMO, of course.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by brewdad on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @04:08PM (#30690840)
This is why I stopped watching NBA. It's largely become a 3 point contest with an occasional dunk from a fast break or defensive lapse.

At least the college kids sometimes miss their shots. :)

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by smcl on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:05AM (#30684297)
May I introduce you to: Cricket

Like a more sedate baseball but slower and longer

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by lordnacho on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:26AM (#30684425)
Yeah, a sport where you wear a sweater during the summer. For five days.

This is also the best sport to show in an office, because people don't watch anything but the wickets. I used to work on a trading floor where they showed it all day on a screen, no problem.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by lostlogin on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:09AM (#30684762)
> Yeah, a sport where you wear a sweater during the summer. For five days.

Not sure you’d wear that in NZ or Australia during the summer. Or maybe the purists would, strange game.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by smcl on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:44AM (#30684563)
The sport is not my cup of tea but I recently listened to a (sadly paywalled) episode of the TrashFuture podcast which gave me a newfound respect for Cricket. There's a ~10 minute preview of it here: https://trashfuturepodcast.podbean.com/e/preview-britainolog...

Oh speaking of tea, a thing non-Cricket-knowers might enjoy is that a cricket match will traditionally stop for "tea" during the game. Players will go into a pavilion, have some cakes and sandwiches then resume play a little later.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by alistairSH on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:21AM (#30684885)
Professional cycling. 4+ hour races, where 3.5 hours are people "just riding along" (granted at speeds that us mortals can only dream about). The sprints and the climbs are exciting, but everything in between is seriously boring for anybody who isn't a cycling geek (I am, my wife is not; she likes the 20 minute highlight reel, I spend most of July on the couch watching the Tour).
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by umanwizard on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:42AM (#30685136)
That assessment is 100% subjective, and anyway millions of people disagree with it.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by twic on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:34AM (#30683681)
Not American Football, where they regularly stop and bring out a whole new team?
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by dagw on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:12AM (#30684331)
That's the whole 'charm' of American Football. Every player is hyper specialized to do exactly one thing (I guess you can say American Football follows the Unix philosophy in that point). I mean they have two entirely different sets of players dedicated to kicking with each one specializing in a particular type of kick.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by xxs on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:12AM (#30683159)
The only one that's not played outside the US is the American Football. Basketball is second (to football) in quite a lot of European countries, and in some like Lithuania, likely the #1. So is Ice Hockey. Baseball is massive in Asia as well.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by rascul on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:31AM (#30685002)
American football is also played in Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Japan, and even Europe a little bit. Certainly not as popular as other sports outside the US, though.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by revolvingocelot on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:19PM (#30689960)
>American football is also played in Canada

Well, sorta. That statement is sufficiently true, but technically incorrect; it'd be a stretch to call Canadian and American football different sports entirely, but the differences, even if minor, are multitudinous enough to merit consideration.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_American_and_Can...

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by User23 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:27AM (#30685739)
I have met precisely one German fan of American Football. He rooted for the Stuttgart Stallions[1] who I had never heard of before. So, it’s definitely niche, but there are European leagues. Somewhat amusingly to me they call it “Football” as Americans do.

[1] https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_Stallions

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by toyg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:12AM (#30683530)
Without "likely", I'm fairly sure it's n.1 in the Baltic region as a whole. It used to be n.1 in Yugoslavia too but I think football has since claimed that spot.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by jasonwatkinspdx on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:56PM (#30687710)
American Football is played outside the US and is growing in popularity. Watching NFL games in bars in Mexico City is a lot of fun, and I'm not much of a sports fan.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by Loranubi on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @04:59AM (#30683082)
Baseball is huge in Japan and other Asian countries and has been for a long time.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by toyg on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:32AM (#30683309)
Also Cuba.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by astura on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:15PM (#30687153)
And the Dominican Republic.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by avar on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:19AM (#30683206)
Ice hockey is mostly a Canadian and northern European sport, the US last became world champions in 1960. Even the Czech republic is ahead of the US in rankings.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by djmips on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:34AM (#30683331)
America is a top hockey country who is a threat for a medal or world championship any time their best players are allowed to participate.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by throwawayboise on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:12AM (#30686308)
America has some great hockey but as a popular sport it's much more dominant in Canada.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by TulliusCicero on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:21AM (#30683222)
Does winning the Olympics in 1980 not count as world champion? And getting the silver in 2010 isn't exactly terrible imo.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by xxs on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:31AM (#30683293)
>Does winning the Olympics in 1980 not count as world champion?

Olympics (used to) disallow professional athletes in some team competitions. The US basketball dream team of '92 was so fabled b/c it was the 1st time to allow NBA players to partake. So in that regard Olympics don't really count as 'world champion' in pretty much any team sport event. 1980 hockey was no exception and featured "amateurs".

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by CRConrad on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @10:38PM (#30707010)
> 1980 hockey was no exception and featured "amateurs".

Where the definition of "amateurs" differed wildly depending on which side of the Iron Curtain you were from... Up to about 1985 the ice hockey World Championship was mostly about who would come second after the Soviet Union (usually Czechoslovakia). The Soviet Union's national team was largely identical to CSKA MOCKBA[1], whose players were all officers[2] who probably didn't do much else while on the clock than play, practice, or exercise for playing hockey.

___

[1]: Club Sport Krasnaja Armija, the Red Army Sports Club Moskva (Moscow)

[2]: Long-time goalkeeper Vyacheslav Tretyak ended up a full colonel, IIRC.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by eCa on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:34AM (#30683321)
> Does winning the Olympics in 1980 not count as world champion?

No. That makes them Olympic champions.

The world championship is an annual competition[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_World_Championships

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by CRConrad on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @10:42PM (#30707034)
But AIUI many -- perhaps most? -- other sports than ice hockey skip the WC in Olympic years and count the Olympic champion(s) as world champion(s) for those years.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by twic on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:33AM (#30683676)
Although the government did fund the Olympic stadium in London, and then converted it and leased it to West Ham on ludicrously generous terms, which effectively works out as funding a private team's stadium:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/02/west-ham-...

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by fredoralive on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:31AM (#30685790)
It's weird that London 2012 did reasonably well trying to avoid Olympic white elephants with facilities that could be downsized, use of existing sites etc., but really messed up what to do with the main stadium itself.

I think the only other major team stadium involving government stuff in the UK was the Coventry Building Society Arena (previously the Ricoh Arena) that used to be partly owned by Coventry City Council alongside a charity. But that was more notable for a long rent dispute between Coventry City FC and the stadium owners and various threats to move / build new stadiums etc., so was presumably less of a gift to the team financially. It's now owned by the Wasps rugby team, who also ended up in some sort of rent dispute with Coventry City FC leading to them playing at Birmginham City's ground for a couple of years.

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by User23 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:16AM (#30685583)
> Of which Ice Hockey is the only one really played outside of America (and I believe even that's mostly Canada which is basically America)

I hear hockey is popular in Russia too, which is hardly “basically America.”

Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by throwawayboise on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:09AM (#30686274)
Ice hockey is far more popular in Canada than America.
Re:Cities should not pay for new stadiums by throwaway6734 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:20AM (#30684385)
Baseball is also played in Japan and central America