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Re:Apple M1 Ultra by outworlder on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:05PM (#30607819)
Too bad that historically Apple has not given any attention to Mac gaming.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by bobbylarrybobby on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:13PM (#30607936)
Part of Apple's historic MO has been to not invest in areas they don't see themselves having a competitive advantage in. Now that they can make gaming happen with a very low wattage budget they may well try to enter that space in earnest.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by altairprime on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:24PM (#30608092)
The difference between an Apple TV and a Mac Mini is essentially how powerful of Apple silicon it has, whether it runs tvOS or macOS, and whether it has HDMI out or not.

The Studio is a more compact form factor than any modern 4K gaming console. If they chose to ship something in that form factor with tvOS, HDMI, and an M1 Max/Ultra, it would be a very competitive console on the market — if game developers could be persuaded to implement for it.

How would it compare to the Xbox Series X and PS5? That’s a comparison I expect to see someday at WWDC, once they’re ready. And once a game is ported to Metal on any Apple silicon OS, it’s a simple exercise to port it to all the rest; macOS, tvOS, ipadOS, and (someday, presumably) vrOS.

Is today’s announcement enough to compel large developers like EA and Bungie to port their games to Metal? I don’t know. But Apple has two advantage with their hardware that Windows can’t counter: the ability to boot into a signed/sealed OS (including macOS!), load a signed/sealed app, attest this cryptographically to a server, and lock out other programs from reading with a game’s memory or display. This would end software-only online cheating in a way that PCs can’t compete with today. This would also reduce the number of GPUs necessary to support to one, Apple Metal 2, which drastically decreases the complexity of testing and deployment of game code.

I look forward to Apple deciding to play ball with gaming someday.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by neetdeth on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:51PM (#30608403)
This all makes sense, and in that context it’s unfortunate that Apple’s relationship with the largest game tools company, Epic, is... strained, to say the least.

They could always choose to remedy that with a generous buyout offer.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by madars on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @10:37PM (#30610638)
Won't there be a Pluton-based anti-cheating solution? Seems like a natural opportunity for Microsoft.

Edit: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/01/pluto... says

> Microsoft already used Pluton to secure Xbox Ones and Azure Sphere microcontrollers against attacks that involve people with physical access opening device cases and performing hardware hacks that bypass security protections. Such hacks are usually carried out by device owners who want to run unauthorized games or programs for cheating.

So initially you could have Pluton-only servers and down the line non-Pluton hardware will simply be obsolete.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by altairprime on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @12:12AM (#30611172)
Yep. On the plus side, anything with Apple silicon or a T2 chip has this available today already in macOS, so that's every shipping Mac starting in what looks like 2018: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

They won't have the Ultra GPU, but Apple's been shipping for years and Microsoft is just now bringing Pluton to market. I do wish them luck, but that's a lot of PC gamer hardware to depreciate.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by derac on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @08:31PM (#30609962)
Seems unlikely that the general population would spend 2-4k on a console.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by antifa on Thursday March 10, 2022 @06:49AM (#30625879)
If you could spend 2-4k on a special playstation or xbox with double/triple/quadruple graphics capability, it would sell. The games will work fine on the cheapest m1 mac mini, not everyone and every game will need max settings on 4k at 144hz to be a great experience.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by altairprime on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @12:14AM (#30611184)
Well, only the macOS users would be spending a thousand dollars or more for their console-capable Macs, which are general purpose computers with absurd amounts of memory. TV users could spend a lot less for an Apple TV 4K with M1 inside, assuming Apple released it with less of this or that.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by ralfd on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @11:00AM (#30615894)
The Apple TV (A12 chip) is currently $199. The new iPad Air with the M1 chip costs $599.

They also don't need the display, camera, microphone. And could sell it at a loss and make the margins with TV+ and game sales.

But they would need their own bundled controller/accessories and get serious about AAA gaming.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by philistine on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:22PM (#30620144)
Apple has never sold a hardware product at a loss. Never.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by codyb on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @10:09PM (#30610482)
Don’t gamers spend tons of money on gaming PCs?

Also, might be cheaper a couple years down the line.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by afavour on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @11:43PM (#30611030)
PC gamers do. Console gamers don't. And there are a lot more of the latter than the former.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by ralfd on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @10:41AM (#30615656)
> I look forward to Apple deciding to play ball with gaming someday.

I wish.

But playing ball is more than hardware. It is spending billions to buy Activision or Bungie. And I can't honestly imagine Apple having the cultural DNA or leader aspiration to make a game like The Last of Us where the player is brutally beating zombies to bloody clumps.

In video games the business side demands having exclusives, or timed exclusives, to sponsor twitch streamers playing your game and cutting special deals with studios. This is very different to the App store where Apple emphasizes their role as a neutral arbiter and a dev having the same deal as any other dev. Can you imagine the complains here on hn if Epic Games would get a a special deal just because they are a bigger fish and Fortnite is popular?

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by t3rabytes on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:58PM (#30609113)
A recent keynote compared an Apple series chip to an Xbox One S, can’t remember which though.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by fomine3 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:04PM (#30610154)
Pippin atmark again!
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by kllrnohj on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:21PM (#30608051)
The gaming performance of the existing M1 GPUs is, well, crap (like far behind the other laptop competition, to say nothing of desktop GPUs). The Ultra probably isn't changing that, since it's very unlikely to be a hardware problem and instead a software ecosystem & incentives problem.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by kitsunesoba on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:59PM (#30609125)
I don’t think the performance is that bad. On a whim I tried running WoW on a 16” M1 Pro MBP and it consistently got FPS higher than the refresh rate (120hz) with the game rendering at 1x scale and most effects maxed out. Granted, that’s not as good as what you’d get with a mobile RTX 3080 or something, but it’s nothing to sneeze at for a laptop that doesn’t get scorching hot and doesn’t sound like a leaf blower when being pushed.

I could definitely see the Max and Ultra with a beefier cooling system (like the Studio’s) having pretty respectable performance.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by kllrnohj on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @08:34PM (#30609986)
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...

M1 Max struggles to keep up with an RTX 3060 mobile.

Now that's with the overhead of Rosetta 2 and all that, so it's of course "not fair" for the M1. But that's also the current reality of the market, so ya know.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by ohgodplsno on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @02:13AM (#30611745)
WoW isn't exactly the pinnacle of demanding performance. It's like saying you can run counter strike at 200FPS: congrats, so can everyone else, without paying $2000
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by Croftengea on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:37AM (#30614812)
Yes, it's "crap" not because GPU is slow but rather that most triple A title games are optimized for Windows. So it's difficult to expect a good performance from a game that runs with API conversion layer(s) (Windows -> Mac) and then CPU emulation (x86 -> arm).

So publishers/developers need to make more native games. Even though every Mac port will probably make 1/10th revenue of a Windows title I guess Mac users would be happy to pay more for better games. I certainly would.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by gameswithgo on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @10:35AM (#30615589)
It is a video memory problem. Unified memory is nice but you need GDDR6 to feed a powerful GPU. But you don't want GDDR6 for the cpu.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:06PM (#30610169)
$4000-$6000 is a toy for a tiny number of rich people or a work machine for a well paid professional.

In the PC space the average spend is $800 and a PS5 is $500.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by torginus on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @03:20AM (#30612139)
This has been always very strange for me. Apple chips used in smartphones were very consistently near the top of the pack even in terms of GPU performance, and unlike their Android counterparts, they rarely throttled, and could deliver said perf with decent battery life.

Yet the iOS 'gaming' scene, despite being one of the major revenue drivers, consists mostly of low-quality F2P games.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by novok on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:56PM (#30610413)
Every god damn child has an iPad already to keep them entertained and the hardware is plenty good enough. Going one step further in the age ranges to get big game revenue like the switch will help them capture more.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by arvinsim on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:41AM (#30612645)
Or maybe Jobs was just salty about the Halo buyout?

In any case, it's a moot point. Apple clearly doesn't care about desktop gaming and it shows in both their hardware and software.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by miohtama on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:32PM (#30608201)
Apple has now too much money and is running out of core business areas. Expect more investing in non-Apple areas like gaming, cars, etc.

Though every video game company on the planet hates them because of App Store terms.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by flipgimble on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:09PM (#30608609)
"every video game company" = Epic Games, and mostly because they don't like to pay overhead for their Fortnite loot boxes that most parents wish they could have some control over. I don't have allegiance to either company mostly because they don't care about me, just my money.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by lostlogin on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @12:04PM (#30616940)
> I don't have allegiance to either company mostly because they don't care about me, just my money.

This criticism is something that is a positive to me. Opposing companies are often dependant on adverting money and the things this leads to are a whole lot worse in my view.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by t3rabytes on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:59PM (#30609126)
Epic doesn’t do lootboxes, next.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by derac on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @08:34PM (#30609987)
In the spirit of his argument, they do use time-gated content and other methods to psychologically exploit their users into buying things.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by codyb on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @10:10PM (#30610489)
They used to? At least Rocket League had them for a long time. Unsure how long after Epic purchased it they had them though.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by jen20 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:55PM (#30608458)
> Expect more investing in non-Apple areas like gaming, cars, etc.

I remember people saying this about phones in 2006.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by nr2x on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:39PM (#30608276)
The first half of the event was old wine in new bottles - I reckon that’s the main growth area they are squeezing.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by lostlogin on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @12:08PM (#30617003)
Or was it last seasons wine in old bottles?
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by kllrnohj on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @07:07PM (#30621660)
The "new" display is an 8 year monitor whose updates were a better webcam & integrated speakers, and they're charging more for it than ever before. More like rotten wine in old bottles.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by onethought on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @07:34PM (#30609472)
Except when Bungie was going to release Halo on Mac[0] and Microsoft swooped in bought them and made it an Xbox thing.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrme9yWens

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by lostlogin on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @12:10PM (#30617048)
The Marathon days were really great. That jump was a huge loss to me, even if it wasn’t to Apple.
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by xbmcuser on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @11:08PM (#30610827)
Once they are confident of their graphics advantage I think they will enter the console market against Microsoft and Sony with Apple tv console
Re:Apple M1 Ultra by hajile on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @11:52PM (#30611067)
Apple is the world's biggest and most profitable gaming company. For every AAA gamer, there are a hundred casual gamers (one reason why Nintendo consoles run circles around Sony and Microsoft).

Apple has invested billions into their gaming division. The big thing they need right now is a new version of Metal that gets feature parity with Vulkan or DX.

Also of note, there are very persistent rumors of an upcoming VR headset. Their M1 alone would blow away competition like the Quest. A Pro or max chip with some disabled CPU cores wouldn't cost a ton due to being scavenged cores and would positively stomp the competition.

Re:Apple M1 Ultra by pjmlp on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @01:45AM (#30611602)
In what concerns developer productivitiy, it is Vulkan that needs to get feature parity with Metal.