Aside from what you mention, since basically you providing your own heat for yourself, you have to put or take off layers depending on physical activity. And so naturally this process involves too-hot and too-cold periods that are less than pleasant. Still, I survived to tell the tale.
I mean, we could all live like the hero of To Build A Fire, at least until we died.
That (and 45 degrees) are strawperson arguments against turning down the thermostat a little and putting on a sweater (and let me recommend shoes). My sense is that many people generally (I don't know the parent commenter) shoot down any individual action, because it's individual action - it's reactionary, ridiculing any 'liberal' idea.
However I have a bunch of other "personal comfort issues", related to health. so often leave the heat at seventy while I deal with these.
But even more, I do think the "liberal spirit" of trying to solve or pretending you can solve social or environmental issues with exhortations to individual action is reactionary in the end. The only solution to global warming or pollution or etc is action by the state involving the regulation of private enterprises. These "if we all consumed less" positions are kind of the flip side of telling people who make minimum wage they're poor 'cause they drink a soda at lunch or have netflix etc.
Edit: TL;DR; Exploring what you're comfortable with is a good, even suggesting other explore this good. But the spirit of "the problem is you-all consumer too much" is problematic.
The idea that individuals are powerless is antithetical to democracy, which IMHO is why the reactionaries push it. They say the same thing about protests (despite a long history of success) and any other individual/collective action. Democratic government is a form of collective action, and so they decry that too. They want you dependent on strongpersons and corporations, and IMHO by buying into it, you are surrendering your power and (unwittingly for most) doing nothing less than fighting agaist freedom and democracy. Collective action is quite powerful - ironically, the reactionary movement uses it heavily, and is the foundation of a free society, as is individual responsibility. (It's also the foundation of a free market and SV-style entrepenurialism - individuals doing something in their garage and changing the world.)
Communities, society, depend on everyone doing their part as individuals. You can't prevent trash on the streets in your community by obstaining from littering yourself, but we do keep the streets clean in large part by each person not littering (and we also obey the law, help people in need, etc. etc.).
Reality is quite the opposite of reactionary propaganda: Individuals acting works incredibly well. The Minutemen in the American Revolution were volunteers, who defeated the subjects of the British King. After centuries of unprecendeted success in human history, it's incredible that people abandon it simply because of propaganda.
> I'm actually pretty progressive
I don't know you, of course, and it's just one comment in one moment in your life, but the parent comment is clearly anti-progressive.
Stopping climate change is not a “liberal idea”, at least not in the mainstream liberal sense. Airplanes are still filled with liberals even quite far left on the spectrum in the US (even AOC flies all over the east coast because her time is “too important” to be disrupted by climate change).
Those that criticise individual action are most often the ones that can't bring themselves to sacrifice even the smallest pleasure or convenience, but still feel a small pang of guilt whenever they see other people doing their best to do their part.
When our gas went out in the summer, taking a 'cold' shower was bearable, some days even enjoyable.
In the freezing winter? Tried it once, never again. I'm not even sure it would be safe to shower in water that cold for any long periods of time.
Hold up - do you mean to tell me that people do not turn off the water while lathering? I've showered this way all my life, is this not the norm?
I’ve had little luck converting friends and family to it, though.
I can understand it for people that like a long shower, maybe.. except that surely it's the water they enjoy rather than just the process, so being there with it off wouldn't be any fun?
Obviously newer/better boilers come up to temperature quicker but you don't always have the luxury of choosing your boiler.
Perhaps you'll be surprised to hear that I also turn off the lights in rooms that I am not in, or that I don't keep cars running when I'm not using them to move around.
Counter-question: why would you ever keep the water running when you're not utilizing the water?
In the summer I take cold and cool showers. It struck me that it's a bit insane to consume energy cooling my home, and then using hot water to heat myself up again. Just leave home a little warmer and the cool shower feels great - less AC, less water heating, and happier results.
Also, I took a trip to a poorer country where people, lacking plumbing, bathed using buckets and a big cup. I tried it and it worked fine[0] - almost no drawback at all, just a different habit. I need far less water to shower than I imagined and if I can, turn the water on and off as I shower. Unfortunately, it requires a shower control that is one lever that retains its heat setting; resetting the temperature every time is too cumbersome.
[0] To be clear, I am not at all implying that those people shouldn't have plumbing (they should) or that I was trying to experience poverty in any way (a ridiculous notion, considering where I came from and where I was returning to). I just saw that it worked fine and tried it.
People often don't pay much attention to their toes but they're pretty important for balance. It must be difficult living with that injury.
Even here in -20 temps, I typically sleep in a t-shirt and shorts. Heat from my body warms up the little enclosed space under the blankets quite quickly and the overall temp is a lot more comfortable than being wrapped up in multiple layers that restrict movement.
In extremely cold, drafty situations (living in unheated bus) with only blankets rather than a sleeping bag, putting on clothes is necessary.
Of course, if you have a good sleeping bag, as little clothes as possible is how to sleep outdoor.
Note that I was living in a school dormitory with bedding provided by the dorm, so it met a local standard of reasonableness.
They're almost like fingerless gloves, but more comfortable and easier to manage.
You might be worried "but it's the fingers that are cold anyway, so fingerless gloves are not what I need." I thought that too, but trying them immediately proved me wrong and I never had an issue with cold fingers again. I'm fairly sure it's because warming your wrists/palms keep your blood from losing heat in those areas, so your fingers get much warmer circulation.
For something less than $10, it's probably the best purchase I've made for working in the winter
this is calling back to the recent post on Dickensian poverty for me. Everyone not well to do in A Christmas Carol was cold and had layers on and fingerless gloves and stood around shivering. But the rich people were heating the spaces (except Scrooge of course)
Still need to solve the cold yet damp (from sweating?) feet and sweating armpit issue although.
As others had noticed, the cold hand / feet thing is mostly a computer thing for me. Also probably due to me restricting my eating at times.
The price is higher compared to cotton or synthetics, but it's possible to find good values by shopping sales. The daily rewards of wool (in every season) are worth the extra effort.
Also found that it's perfectly OK to wear thin wool inner layer all the time. It doesn't really get too warm as long as you don't wear warm clothes over.
We can sit and imagine problems with every course of action, and never step forward.
In my life, I've never had the quoted problem and I've never heard anyone else say it's a problem. On my list of things to worry about, this ranks near the bottom. No clothing I know of has special cool spots, beyond outdoor recreation equipment (e.g., mountaineering gear with pit zips), yet somehow we all do fine. I expect our bodies adjust fine to such variations.
> While if the room is all one consistent warm enough temperature, you don't get these cold & hot spot effects.
That doesn't add up: No clothing (with the exception mentioned above) has such cooling spots. If our bodies couldn't adjust, a constant temperature would be the same, sweater or not.
EDIT:
> If your slippers have sheep's wool in them, like ugg slippers, then they often sweat a lot or feel a little wet while simultaneously feeling cold at times, or warm enough.
It's incredible that Ugg sells any slippers!
Well, you assume these are fake problems, and so the GP is being disingenuous.
The problems he mentions basically only happen if you stay at a computer, or such unphysical activities that form the basis of modern work. As you properly notice, these problems are mostly nonexistent if you do "real" physical activities, but you can still suffer from them. E.g. while doing inconsistent physical exercise in cold winters , your temperature will rise up a lot, so you may sweat a lot and then get cold fast again in your wet clothing. Any construction worker knows this can be quite a hassle.
He then mention "cold hands". This is called "Raynaud syndrome", and affects 4% of people. This is very difficult to deal with, especially if your primary work is typing at a computer. There are many types of gloves you can buy: compression gloves, fishermen gloves, spandex ones, with 1 to 5 exposed fingers. Each has particular downsides to deal with, none are perfect.
You can get silver-threaded clothing too, although that is quite expensive. Managing good comfort while minimizing room-heating is not easy at all, and that does not even address other "house" issues (at an extreme, water-pipes exploding because of freezing water).
That is what most people I know do for a living, and often during personal time, including me - it's probably the most common job activity among HN readers. And what are we doing now to post these comments? And yet, I've never heard those complaints.
Also, I think you have things reversed: Active people are the ones who like to buy clothes with pit zips.
> your temperature will rise up a lot, so you may sweat a lot and then get cold fast again in your wet clothing
Tangentially: You can avoid this problem with the proper materials: Don't wear cotton in these situations - it is worse than nothing if damp; it chills you. Wear breathable materials that insulate when wet and dry quickly. Wool is probably best, and then 'fleece', which is effectively synthetic wool. Down (e.g., from geese) is even better but if it gets wet, it clumps up into useless balls; however, I've never seen it do that from perspiration, only from external water sources (rain, falling in a river, etc.). Synthetic down can be very warm and still insulates when wet; I suspect it's warmer per liter or per gram than wool, but I'm not sure.
Also, wear a wind-proof outer shell. Preventing the convection of wind does as much as anything to keep you warm.
> Managing good comfort while minimizing room-heating is not easy at all
In fact, it's very easy and people have been doing it for most of history: Put on a sweater. Are we really debating how hard that is? I mean, we can make anything hard, but ... wow.
You are either very disingenuous, or have trouble with reading comprehension. The point is, if your hands get cold easily it's not possible to go too low in temperature without discomfort. Of course while having sufficiently warm clothing to have a warm core, as you said earlier.
The 4% figure I mentioned is from the Wikipedia abstract; I haven't bothered to check the research, but I believe it grounds this firmly in the "common" territory instead of the "I never heard of such a thing in my life".
Yeah I am already wearing a sweater, warm pants, wool slippers with socks and a beanie / hat. The hands are unexposed and I'm thinking at this point I need a different slippers that are bit more breathable. Also staying warm with breathable fabrics can be somewhat deceptive, because your dehydrating yourself faster via sweat your not perceiving.
Wool doesn't work well for me due to skin issues unless I cover it with a layer of nylon / cotton. Yes I've tried good merino wool, and it's still minorly irritating. I've given up on most wool that touches my skin.
Also my apartment is in a fairly temperate place, and what is hot / cold is a bit weird. The floor is a fairly cold hardwood floor, and I think it sucks a lot of heat out somehow. I'm not in a place that is consistently cold, it's only cold for like 4 months, so places here are not very well designed for it. It's also not carpet which probably solves a lot of the cold floor problems via it's built in insulation.
Also I'm more perceptive about my body state than probably most people and try to avoid wearing antiperspirant when I know I'm not going out that day with WFH. Your are probably blocking a lot of the sweating your armpits would do in this modern age as a result, and I believe we should making clothing that keeps that area a little bit more cool.
My internal body temperature can run hotter if I start eating a lot of carbs and more calories, but then I start consistently gaining weight so I don't do that.
I'm also more doing this as a challenge, I can definitely afford to just heat my room to t-shirt levels and put rugs everywhere, but I'm trying to figure out clothing that would work well without it while using a computer for hours. I'm not raynauds level of issues, but it makes sense this is mostly an computer worker issue too.
Take the commentor you replied to and myself as people with this problem. Its not for not trying - growing up counting pennies, not in poverty but money was tight, lead to a layers based heating mentality. One of the greatest benefits of the extra wealth afforded to the software career is to heat the space I'm in.
On the flip side I'm also sensitive to hot spaces - I keep my house in the 16-19 celcius range during the day, and colder at night.
I have the quoted problem. Sitting working at the computer at home. Armpits especially. Groin can be similar.
Think about the problem. In a proper typing position with elbows by your side, the part of your upper body where flesh touches flesh is the side of your chest and your upper arm. It's no wonder the armpits are warmer than elsewhere.
I ameliorate the armpits by using a gilet over thinner layers. It keeps my core warm, but does nothing for poor circulation in my hands. And I find even the thinnest gloves slow my typing.
Anecdotally I've 100% had the slippers problem. Although it is more or less solved by using socks within then.
No and no. The temperature in my home is set just warm enough that a sweater (and let me add, shoes - insulation from the coldest air and surface in the room) keeps me comfortable. My hands don't get chilled at that temperature.
FWIW - from wilderness experience - it is widely believed that the best way to warm your hands is often to warm your core. Your body naturally prioritizes your core (probably better to keep your heart at 37 C and let your hands get a little chilly than vice versa!); keep that warm enough and energy/blood will be diverted to keeping your extremities warm.
It’s perfectly viable to keep a living space just above freezing. You however need gloves to stay comfortable at 3-4C (38f).
Another factor is just getting up and doing some light exercise every 30 mins or so. 5 push ups, or jogging up and down the stairs a few times, is enough to keep your circulation reasonably balanced.
An alternative is also, as it is mentioned in the article, to warm certain spots in a room instead of the whole of it.
I could skip buying a coffee and more than make up for it.
For the average HN reader in north america? Probably not. For the median person in europe right now? Maybe not (thanks to what's happening in ukraine affecting gas prices).
I worked in an ice cream factory for a bit, was hard to find socks/shoes that would keep you warm not sweat/freeze. That job was wild like nostrils frozen, break every 45 mins.
There's the old saying: "cold feet? wear a hat."
dress with the right layers. I always put a layer of synthetic beneath cotton.
Nice socks help your body deal with cold quite dramatically. "Darn Tough" brand merino wool socks are pretty exceptional socks that keep your feet warm and (importantly) dry.
still end up with cold-ish fingers though which feels similar enough to cold hands. im thinking what i need is something like mittens but instead of something that wraps around your fingers, it would just rest on top and keep the air off while your fingers are free to move underneath
I wonder if it causes cancer cause it works so well I’m surprised no one talks about it.
If you want to wear gloves, then finger and hand mobility is effected, and usually with hands, it's the fingers that are cold anyway, making fingerless gloves not feel that useful.
While if the room is all one consistent warm enough temperature, you don't get these cold & hot spot effects.