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Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by 0_____0 on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:29AM (#30374112)
This doesn't answer the question of why you'd want to put people on Mars in the first place.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by dahfizz on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:52AM (#30374382)
Why did Homo Erectus leave Africa? Why did early humans cross the land bring into the Americas? What could have possibly possessed the aborigines to cross the ocean to Australia?

Because its cool. Because its interesting. Because it is baked into our monkey brains to want to explore.

If people want to push the frontier, why are you such a grump about it?

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:07AM (#30374615)
I'm positively certain that in all of your examples people have pushed into new areas because of food, to find new land to live on, to find riches, to find the promised land or other mythological reasons. Somehow I don't imagine aborigines crossing the ocean because "it's cool".

You know what we're going to find on Mars? Rocks. A whole lot of radiation. No breathable atmosphere and freezing temperatures.

Imagine the most hellish place on Earth - that's still better for humans than the most pleasant place on Mars.

Would it be "cool" to stand on Mars? To stand on another planet? Of course it would. And I firmly believe that we should continue our planetary explanation - but making plans for human habitation on Mars when we haven't even been back to the Moon in 50+ years is literally just stupid. Put a base there, learn how to make it self sufficient and then let's talk about Mars.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by signatoremo on Thursday February 17, 2022 @01:53PM (#30377052)
> I'm positively certain that in all of your examples people have pushed into new areas because of food, to find new land to live on, to find riches, to find the promised land or other mythological reasons

First of all, you can’t be positively certain of those. We don’t have access to the reasoning of why the Vikings decided to cross the Artic to America, or Polynesians crossing the Pacific.

Second of all, let’s say they did go to look for food. Are you sure they ran out of land to grow food, or forest for hunting that they had to look for new land? The answer is quite resounding no. Likewise, we don’t have to exhaust all of the resource on Earth before exploring other planets.

Finally, what were those mythological reasons you listed there, if not the desire of human being to explore?

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Friday February 18, 2022 @06:37AM (#30384498)
>>Are you sure they ran out of land to grow food, or forest for hunting that they had to look for new land? The answer is quite resounding no.

The answer is an absolute and resounding yes, because that's exactly what hunter gatherers do - they move with the herds and where the food is. This isn't just an educated guess, we know this because there are still hunter tribes on Earth right now which do exactly this.

>>Finally, what were those mythological reasons you listed there, if not the desire of human being to explore?

We have historical records of entire tribes moving purely due to religious reasons, either believing that land somewhere else is sacred, or that the land they are on currently is condemned. If you think your deity lives over the horizon, then you get on your boat and go in that direction. Yes ultimately it's a desire to explore, but it's not just because it's "cool".

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by maxerickson on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:09AM (#30374634)
Like if you could build something awesome on Mars it would pretty much universally be easier to build it in North Dakota.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ceejayoz on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:30AM (#30374951)
Sure. It's easier to build in North Dakota than it is in the Swiss Alps, too, but people do that in part because they like the Alps.

There are going to be people for whom the idea of a frontier life in a place of natural, untouched beauty appeals. We've always had those folks. Some of them find life is harder than they expected; some thrive.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by maxerickson on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:58AM (#30375427)
There has always been new opportunity at frontiers.

Mars is just harsher than anywhere on earth. There's less of everything other than space and harmful radiation (and you sort of have to make the space that you want/need when you get there...)

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ben_w on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:32AM (#30374148)
Disaster recovery, the penultimate in off-site backups of humanity itself.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by jeffreygoesto on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:57AM (#30374452)
With a "humanity" like this, maybe a bad idea... Maybe fix some of the bugs first with that money? Mars does not run away, you know...
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by m4rtink on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:49AM (#30375277)
Mars might not, but the technological/resource window of our civilization could. And we should not risk it.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:35AM (#30374174)
If that really is your goal then build a colony at the bottom of the ocean or deep under ground here on Earth - at sufficient depth there is literally nothing that could endanger such colony, it's functionally equivalent to being on mars without the idiotic travel cost.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ben_w on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:40AM (#30374238)
Plausible, but I remember when I did my degree, one of the examples given about the importance of choosing a good site for “off site backups” was a company whose main site was one of the WTO twin towers, whose off site was the the other tower on the grounds that they couldn’t conceive of anything that would affect both without also destroying civilisation as a whole.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:47AM (#30374318)
Well sure, but that's always a question of what are you trying to defend yourself against(what kind of scenario is the backup helping with). Twin towers are probably good enough for any kind of fire/electrical failure/theft/vandalism, but not for a meteor strike, war or as we've seen - terrorism. It's not that people in your example were stupid and didn't see it - just that most likely they didn't consider those dangers as important to have a backup for(if a war breaks out or a meteor strikes New York you probably have bigger problems).

It's the same here - most of the "human extinction"-scale events really don't touch a base that's 10km under water or under ground. Nuclear war or meteor strike? nope. Earthquakes? There are places safe from that. Solar flares? Nope. Deadly virus? Quarantine everyone arriving like you would with the journey to Mars.

Terrorism remains the main risk, but it would have been the same risk on Mars too.

And most importantly - it teaches us how to run an independent colony deep underground, which is important because despite all the Sci-Fi films showing us otherwise, the base on Mars would really have to be underground because of radiation risk.

So yeah, sure, run an underground base for a few decades then you can just transplant the technology to Mars - don't start with Mars first.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ben_w on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:53AM (#30374393)
> don't start with Mars first

On that part we definitely both agree :)

Although, I would say that developing the tech to colonise Mars can be a useful rallying point for tech useful to Earth (if you can put a city of a million on the red planet, you can also put it in the middle of the Himalayas or Antarctica or the Sahara), in the same way that Tesla is useful as a rallying point for electric cars despite all the people I hear complaining about the build quality.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by jmyeet on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:57AM (#30375399)
Wouldn't earthquakes and even volcanoes still be an issue? I also imagine being at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico was of no help when the dinosaur-killing asteroid hit.

Plus where does your energy come from? You don't have solar. You need to make your own light to grow food. Geothermal is possible I guess but the ocean is terrible for corrosion and building. The high pressure at the bottom of the ocean makes everything worse.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by merpnderp on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:50AM (#30374346)
Except 8 billion starving desperate people trying to get it.

For instance if people were starving or hiding from fallout, those doomsday shelters the rich are building for themselves would likely be overran by the locals who helped build them or heard all about them from town gossip.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:11AM (#30374657)
How are those 8 billion starving people getting into a base 10km below the surface of the ocean which requires a specialized submarine to get to? How is this any more realistic than 8 billion starving people getting to Mars?

And finally - I hope you aren't suggesting that the base on Mars is a way to escape "8 billion starving people".

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ceejayoz on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:33AM (#30375004)
You don't have to get to it to affect it. Eight billion very pissed off people can probably figure out how to drop rocks on the rich billionaire haven in an ocean trench.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by merpnderp on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:43PM (#30381908)
A few of those people getting access to a submarine or just building a robot to go down there is a lot more likely than them building a vehicle and equipment to land on Mars and assault the habitat there.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Friday February 18, 2022 @05:39AM (#30384174)
I think we're talking about different kinds of scale here. A habitat that could be destroyed by "a few people building a submarine" isn't a backup policy for humanity. Not here, not on Mars, not anywhere. I'm imagining a proper city-sized habitation for few million people - with industry and agriculture to support it. A truly separate colony that trades with the rest of Earth when it needs to, but can survive on its own.

Also I really don't like how the arguments so far are about preventing the starving people from coming over and messing things up. It strikes me as very "we need to keep the pleb out" kind of thinking, no different than what some rich people are doing.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by rthomas6 on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:51AM (#30374360)
I can think of some things that would require them to stay there, unable to surface, for thousands of years. Having the ability to mine asteroids and create additional colonies and space stations seems better to me.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:56AM (#30374434)
....just mine around your base? Create tunnels that span the entire planet if you must? How is all of this not easier than something as exotic as asteroid mining?

Even if the entire surface is irradiated(somehow) you can still launch things into space with underground railguns. It's not what we currently use, but it's easier to imagine this than building a base on Mars with current(or near future) technology.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by 0des on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:37AM (#30374202)
Just put the DC backup in that rack in the corner, should be all we need.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by bayesian_horse on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:01AM (#30374534)
We're better off riding it out in a bunker or something on earth. It's easier to build something self sustaining on earth that can survive anything, than build the same thing anywhere else.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ben_w on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:12AM (#30374669)
We can do both. Even Musk’s plan is aiming at 10s of hours of 2020 global GDP spread over the best part of a century.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by finnh on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:53AM (#30374394)
What's the ultimate, then?
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ben_w on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:56AM (#30374438)
Interstellar
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by finnh on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:44AM (#30375195)
Heck yes
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ericmay on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:51AM (#30374365)
Why do anything?
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:09AM (#30374638)
This is a very flippant comment, but I will try to respond anyway - we simply haven't achieved a post scarcity society yet. Maybe we will at some point, but we just aren't there yet. So right now our time, money and natural resources are quite simply limited. So maybe it's not that we shouldn't have a base on Mars - it's just that maybe that shouldn't be the first step in human habitation in space.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by bostonsre on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:59AM (#30375445)
What about motivating humans to strive for greatness? Being curmudgeon underground mole people sounds a lot less likely to inspire the next generation to strive to excel at STEM education. I think even just trying to colonize mars could inspire tens of millions of the next generation when they look up at the sky. A large majority of those won't go into the space colonization field and most will instead contribute to improving our lot and maybe even attempting to get to a post scarcity society.
Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by thoms_a on Thursday February 17, 2022 @08:38PM (#30381174)
I genuinely had a good laugh at the idea that simply by building an underground colony, the inhabitants would become "curmudgeon underground mole people".

I would personally love such a habitat, and would market it as a Safe Space for The Curmudgeonly(TM).

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by ericmay on Thursday February 17, 2022 @12:11PM (#30375651)
I don't see how it's any different than the parent comment in terms of being flippant. Should one meet any thing that humans may strive for with "why do that if we haven't done X first"? Why start a new startup if you haven't solved post-scarcity society?

We don't need to have a post-scarcity society before progressing science and technology by trying to and succeeding in colonizing Mars. Similarly we create plenty of technology while also not solving the post-scarcity "problem". Adding more resources or more people to solving a problem doesn't mean that it makes the problem easier or more likely to be solved. So you're creating this idea that we can't do X until we've done Y, when the truth is we can do X and Y.

Strategically I think we should create an international moon base first before going to Mars, but we can do both.

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by signatoremo on Thursday February 17, 2022 @01:58PM (#30377121)
How long do you think until we can set up a base on Mars? Let alone other planets in the Solar system? 50 years, 100 years at the very least. If we don’t get started now, when will be the right time?

We flew to the Moon 50 years ago, logically there would have been human on Mars by now. That didn’t happen, so the next best time is as soon as possible. Like now.

As for limited resources, how much money do you think we spend for space exploration? We waste a lot more money and resource for other things. We should cut down those instead. Let’s take a trivial example. Do you think gaming is a waste of resource? Why don’t we cut down gaming?

Re:Design of a rapid transit to Mars mission using laser-the... by gambiting on Thursday February 17, 2022 @02:18PM (#30377354)
That's not my point, I think either I didn't explain myself properly or people are missing it. What I want to say is that currently we have very limited resources(on the planetary scale) - no we don't have to wait for post scarcity to try, but I just don't understand why we're trying for Mars first instead of the moon, which is simply more achievable, cheaper, and fulfils all the goals of getting kids and adults excited about science again.