News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by reaperducer on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:05PM (#29989431)
It's worth noting that the definition of "Native American" varies over time. In addition to people self-identifying for various political, social, and economic reasons, the tribes can decide their own level of generic purity. One tribe can specify that you must be ¼ indian to qualify for their tribe, while others can make it far less or more.

All of this leads to the old joke, "What do you call 64 Cheyenne in a room?" "One indian."

The linked article unfortunately bases its conclusions on "self-identification," which is problematic. When the federal government sent the tribes billions of dollars in COVID relief money, suddenly there were newly-minted, self-described "indians" crawling out of the woodwork trying to get a check.

Also realated, there's currently a bunch of people on a reservation outside of Seattle who are being kicked out of their homes because they're not tribal enough. The tribe changed its definition, and because these people are from a related tribe up in Canada, they no longer qualify.

/Friends with a lot of indians. Subscribe to two indian newspapers. And yes "Indian" is correct. It's only white people and city indians who embrace the term "Native American." Rez indians call themselves "indians." Proudly.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by AlotOfReading on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:49PM (#29989752)
As an archaeologist for whom the topic of names comes up a lot, why in the world would you give general advice on "Indian" naming? It's obviously specific to individual preferences and you should generally prefer identifying people with nations anyway.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by rayiner on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:33PM (#29990004)
“Indian” refers to Indians as a whole, especially with respect to their political relationship with the United States. Indians themselves use the term in that context, and it’s the preferred term in, for example, the field of Indian law.

It’s like the term “Asian.” Few people identify as generic “Asian” and it would be incorrect to equate it with a nationality or specific culture. But it does work at a high level to address a group of people who have something in common on a political dimension.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @02:09AM (#29990830)
It would be nice if the Canadian term First Nations was adopted for the political sense.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by wolverine876 on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:15AM (#29990240)
Where did you learn that?
[dead]
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by SamoyedFurFluff on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:06AM (#29990183)
Asian was a good label to use during the hate crimes, fwiw.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by mbg721 on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:25AM (#29990298)
Okay, well, if it helped, it helped.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by rayiner on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:54AM (#29995239)
In fact the opposite is true.

1) The label was overbroad, since the attacks were on East Asians, not south Asians.

2) The whole thing was manipulated by white liberals for their own purposes. They blamed Trump and “white supremacy” for the attacks, when in reality the attacks where happening in liberal cities like SF and NYC, and most of the attackers were non-white themselves.

In fact, the “Asian” label and identity was used to undermine the interests of Asians. Progressive identity activists used it as an opportunity to attack white conservatives, while reaffirming the need for reduced policing. But that’s not what actual Asian voters in these cities wanted: https://www.slowboring.com/p/yang-gang. They wanted more policing and measures to control the homeless. In NYC, for example, Asians overwhelmingly supported Andrew Yang, who was attacked for expressing moderately law and order views. And in the general election, heavily Asian communities in NYC voted in significant numbers for the Republican candidate, even though the Democrat also ran on a law and order platform: https://www.thecity.nyc/politics/2021/11/11/22777346/chinese.... The Republican candidate was otherwise a complete joke (even the NY Post endorsed the Democrat). But he got 46% of the vote in Brooklyn’s 70% Asian China town.

Sometimes these broad, politically constructed group labels are unavoidable. But labeling a group and getting people to identify with that label is also a tool for manipulating people. Indeed the term “Asian” to refer to a bunch of unrelated nationalities—who often have deep animosity towards each other—was coined by Berkeley political activists: https://time.com/5837805/asian-american-history/

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by reaperducer on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @08:58AM (#29993659)
why in the world would you give general advice on "Indian" naming?

I'm not. I'm reiterating what has been told to me by close to a dozen Navajo, Hopi, and Zuni indians.

Why would some random archaeologist decide for a large group of people what they should be called, when they call themselves something else?

I happen to have the January 6, 2020 edition of The Navajo Times on my desk. Just skimming the headlines (because I haven't read it yet), I see the following:

"Phoenix Indian Center," "Gallup Indian Medical Center," "Indian Health Service," "Santa Fe Indian."

The Four Corners region of the United States is called "Indian Country" by the indians who live there.

What give you the right to tell people what they can call themselves?

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by AlotOfReading on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:18AM (#29995622)
I'd encourage you to re-read what I wrote, because I've very intentionally avoided telling anyone what they can call themselves.

Part of this whole respecting preferences is that individual terms have to be treated separately. "Indian" is different than "American Indian" which is again different from "Indian country" or "Indian law". Someone may dislike some or most of these without necessarily disliking the others. The ones with specific technical meanings we're unfortunately stuck with in context.

Another popular example of this sort of issue is "Navajo" itself, as many would prefer to be called Diné or some derivative thereof.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by deanCommie on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:47AM (#29990417)
CGP Grey made a very convincing video on the argument that at least in the US, unexpectedly enough, "Indian" is probably the most appropriate term to use for Native Americans for a multitude of reasons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh88fVP2FWQ
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by skywal_l on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:51AM (#29990741)
Interesting but there is only a Part 0. Unless it is some sort of inside joke, I was hoping for more.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by depaya on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:20AM (#29994700)
There is more coming, he's been working on the topic for years. I think the extra long delay between this and the next in the series is due to a combination of his rather slow rate of production, recent American politics, and Covid (both videos inspired by Covid, and Covid preventing visits to America).

He's also put out a number of tangentially related videos inspired by his research work on Indians:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABMV4wXx6Xo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCeMCwxayp0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsWr_JWTZss

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by deanCommie on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @07:13PM (#30002401)
> There is more coming

Well....maybe. 2 years is a long gap, even for Grey. I would assume he had hoped to put out much more by now. That he didn't is probably a reflection not just to COVID productivity but also lost motivation.

I hope that's not the case, but who knows...

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:12AM (#29994571)
> identifying people with nations anyway.

Always awkward after conquests.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:28PM (#29989595)
I am not white or a city Native American and I use Indian for people from the country of India, because it results in less confusion.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by runarberg on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:57AM (#29990464)
If you want to prevent ambiguity you can use "American Indians" and "People from India". But usually it is clear from the context what you mean.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by runarberg on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:35AM (#29994935)
Whoa, sorry, I posted this under the wrong post. This was supposed to go under https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29989643
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by seshagiric on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:37PM (#29989659)
On a trip to the Monument Valley, our guide explicitly told us they hate being named as Indian. They seem to prefer their tribal name or if I remember correctly, First Nation).
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by cmckn on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:49AM (#29990424)
It depends, these groups of people are not a monolith. US federal legislation and agencies often use “Native American” or “American Indian” on signage, etc. and some groups use similar, others don’t. I have found “indigenous” to be the most widely-accepted contemporary moniker.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by protomyth on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:00PM (#29989801)
First Nation is Canadian, and I would point out the number of reservations that have high school teams named "Indians". Those names are local.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by seshagiric on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @09:32PM (#30003663)
My bad. Our guide told us the Navajo believe they were one of the first humans on the Earth, maybe I mis-remembered it as first nation.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by bluedino on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @07:13AM (#29992648)
Cubans, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans are all hispanic or latino but don't confuse them.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by protomyth on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:59PM (#29989793)
Although, if you are not an enrolled member of a tribe and you say you're an Indian on a reservation, expect some serious backlash. Harvard may accept you but the tribes will not.

That being said, some tribes use their enrollment offices as a power play on some members. I do wish the federal government would step in some way. Its a tricky subject.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by coldtea on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:12PM (#29989882)
>I do wish the federal government would step in some way

Yes, what Native Americans could use is more federal meddling in their lands, tribes, and affairs... /s

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by ipaddr on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:49AM (#29990722)
In Canada tribal offices get money from the federal government and they get to decide how to spend it. Some tribes equally share, others hire family and the money never trickles down.

You can't take the easy way out and ignore the problem because you are part of the problem.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by protomyth on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:16PM (#29989907)
Its not like they don't interfere all the time anyway, might as well do something positive for once.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by boppo1 on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @07:34AM (#29992787)
The boarding schools sere considered positive when implemented. Not so much.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by brag on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:35PM (#29989643)
What about the Indians from India? What do they call them?
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by protomyth on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:55PM (#29989775)
Slang wise, I've heard the phrase "beads not feathers". Generally, when talking on a reservation, its pretty obvious, but "Indians from India" was another. Depends on the crowd. You also have to remember that Native Americans talking about other Native Americans will use slang (not for outside use) or refer to the other's tribe.

1) I remember a band that I thought was called "Beads and Feathers" that had Native Americans and Indians.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by thaumasiotes on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:01PM (#29989807)
I've always seen "feather" contrasted with "dot", not "bead". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindi_(decoration)

I've gotten the sense from Brown Pundits that among themselves they refer to themselves as Desi. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi )

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by protomyth on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:08PM (#29989857)
Dot works too. I heard beads at some meeting from an Indian from India speaker. I've heard Dot too.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by systemvoltage on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:57PM (#29989786)
In the movie, Good Will Hunting, clarification is made with “Dot, not feathers” which seems more accurate since both a dot mark and a feather are forehead ornamentations.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by ncmncm on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:30AM (#29991219)
I have heard "Sari not sorry". Dunno where that came from, but I think I like it.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by sterlind on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:47PM (#29989734)
I dunno, but I've seen/used American Indians before to disambiguate (unless talking about specific nations/ethnicities), and Indian-Americans for Americans from India. for (non-American Indian) Indians in India, maybe Indian Indians? subcontinental Indians? that last sounds wrong to me but I dunno what else to use!
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by screye on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:39AM (#29995980)
I never disambiguate. my accent is thick enough to give away which type of Indian I am.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by nirav72 on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:28AM (#29995790)
As someone of Indian origin - I just call myself South Asian. This seems to be accepted term by many of us who were either born or raised in the west. That could include people of Pakistani heritage, Sri Lankan, Nepal and Bangladesh.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by alisonatwork on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:37PM (#29990024)
East Indians. In rural parts of Canada and the US where indigenous North Americans are the largest minority, restaurants that serve South Asian food (if they even exist) tend be self-described as serving East Indian cuisine.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by alisonatwork on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:51AM (#29992473)
I'm not sure why this comment has been downvoted. It's a simple fact that anyone traveling in the prairies can confirm. Like it or not, in parts of Canada and the US, "East Indian" is a common term used to refer to people from the country of India. Here is just one example of a restaurant that describes itself that way: http://www.redchillis.ca
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by Ichthypresbyter on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:02AM (#29994428)
Even where I live, in a county which probably has 10 times more Indian-Americans than American Indians, the relevant section of the ethnic food aisle in supermarkets is described as "East Indian".
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by rayiner on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:37PM (#29990020)
I suspect it doesn’t come up that often.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by izend on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:25PM (#29989582)
Indian is definitely not used in Canada nor is Native American as it turned into a very derogatory term. The preferred term is First Nations and Inuit.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by cwp on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:09PM (#29989864)
I once had a girl ask me if she looked Indian. I said no, she got pissed off, and it was quite a while before I realized she didn't mean "from India." Turned out she was from Whitehorse, "full blooded Indian" she said.

First Nations is what they say on the CBC, but "Indian" hasn't been stamped out completely.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by ravenstine on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:40PM (#29989684)
In all seriousness, I wonder how long it will be until "First Nations" and "Inuit" become derogatory. I didn't even know "Native American" was bad, to be honest.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by AlotOfReading on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:53PM (#29989769)
There are already people who consider terms like "Inuit" homogenizing and insulting. There are thousands of indigenous groups in the Americas and every person in them can have their own preferences and opinions. There isn't a singular term to refer to the totality of their identities any more than there is for "Eurasians".
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by coldtea on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:15PM (#29989896)
>There are thousands of indigenous groups in the Americas and every person in them can have their own preferences and opinions.

Well, the same is the case with Europeans, Asians, and so on, so?

We have smaller identities, and larger group identities, it's not belonging or being categorized in one precludes the smaller more unique identity...

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by AlotOfReading on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:49PM (#29990079)
It's not a higher level label, they simply don't consider themselves Inuit in the same way Canadians generally don't consider themselves "American".
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by coldtea on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @04:37AM (#29991634)
That's not much a problem, usually a characterization is for use by others, you don't necessarily have to agree. Germans don't consider themselves living in "Germany" either. Or, names like "Balkans" are not necessarily preferable by those there, but that's life.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by detaro on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:34AM (#29995896)
It's more as if you decided to call Austrians "Germans" too because you can't be bothered to make the distinction.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by coldtea on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:59PM (#30000030)
Well, we could have just as well. That's just like my second example of "the Balkan nations".
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by Zababa on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:32AM (#29990341)
Lots of people living in Europe don't consider themselves europeans.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:56PM (#29990118)
The problem there is that "American" has two meanings. Not that it's homogenizing.

Does "Inuit" have two meanings?

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by detaro on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:43AM (#29990395)
It's more like if you took American to just mean "people of the USA". So it's more like "Canadians don't consider themselves part of the people of the USA". Inuit refers to a specific subgroup of people which have it as a word in their language. Many of those not in it, if you apply the label to them, they view it as if you insisted Canadians were part of the US people because "they live in the roughly same area and live kind of similarly".

Part of it is the word Eskimo. Not popular and falling out of fashion, people look for a replacement, and grabbed what a large subgroup of the people called that calls itself. And thus mislabeling those that are not in that subgroup.

To stretch the analogy again, lets assume for some reason "North American" has become a word to avoid, so lets just call all North Americans what the people from the USA call themselves to be more considerate. And the Canadians aren't happy with that.

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by HWR_14 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:33PM (#29990001)
Logically, being characterized at one level doesn't prevent categorization into finer or coarser levels. In reality, there is a finite amount of information that can be conveyed, and the level of characterization is often whatever you lead with. There are important trade offs to be made with fitting in with a larger group vs being characterized as the mixture of traits of said larger group.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by orthoxerox on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:06AM (#29991102)
Eurasians sounds like a neat way to group people who are given a handicap when they apply to Harvard.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by runarberg on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:54AM (#29990449)
I have never heard anyone taking offense to the word Inuit. It simply means "people" in Kalaallisut.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by AlotOfReading on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:22AM (#29990606)
Greenland is quite far from places like Utqiagvik and Chukotka, where indigenous locals speak entirely different languages. Is it any surprise some people wouldn't want to be labeled that way?

I'll admit "inuit" is pretty widely accepted nowadays, but it's not universally so. The relevant ANLC page gives a good summary of the situation: https://www.uaf.edu/anlc/resources/inuit_or_eskimo.php

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:03AM (#29992178)
Native American is giving them the name of an Italian man who helped colonize them, it's not difficult to see why that's a poor name choice.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by __s on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:21PM (#29989937)
Meanwhile in Canada I have an Indian Status Card

I've heard plenty Indians call themselves Indian. Probably tied to locality

When my father was in school in Northern Ontario they were having students cross out "savages" in text books & write in "Indians". While I was growing up the term was moving to aboriginal

Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by protomyth on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:07PM (#29989839)
The same is not true in the US. Although in the late 80's, I almost got into a fight in Winnipeg because someone asked my Dakota classmate what "reserve he was from". Neither of us had ever heard the term, and it was not, initially, accepted as a friendly inquiry. "You think I'm an animal wasi'chu" did get the guy thinking there was a bit of terminology mismatch.
Re:How the Native American population changed since the last... by AlchemistCamp on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:15PM (#29989897)
Much of my mother's side of the family is Navajo and they do use the term Indian. Inuit is a completely different group much, much further north.