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Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @11:31AM (#29908876)
In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back.

Zeppelins next!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by mabbo on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:47PM (#29910245)
This sort of system is used today in many modern industrial facilities. Case in point: Amazon warehouses.

Lots of the mechanical automations inside some of those warehouses are powered by compressed air in open loop systems. As the conveyor pushes the item off, onto a different lane, there's a distinct hiss of air escaping. The movement of the machine was powered by compressed air.

Out in the parking lot in these facilities, you'll see a huge compressed air tank (or many), constantly being refilled. Tubes from these go into the building like arteries in a body. Often inside the building there will be buffer tanks to help ensure constant pressure.

Source: worked for a few years with guys who maintained these systems. Some of what I learned may be wrong, so feel free to correct me.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by enginoor on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:53PM (#29911933)
The common term is "pneumatics" and the components are prevalent in all automation and manufacturing. The air required is typically compressed on site.

Pneumatic actuators are relatively inexpensive, have a binary state that is easy to control, and offer a high power density.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by laurent92 on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:42PM (#29912400)
How do they avoid bacteria/mould from growing in tanks and flocking the pipes and releasing in the room? Do such systems ever get cleaned up?
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by HPsquared on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:55PM (#29912537)
The air in industrial pneumatic systems is filtered and dried, which would prevent these issues.

Pneumatic systems often use small orifices and valves to control the air flow which would be quickly clogged by any debris, so cleanliness is important.

An aside: PID control was, back in the day, mostly implemented in pneumatic control systems (using a set of levers, bellows springs and nozzles). Pneumatic control systems were (and still are) used a LOT in industrial control systems where e.g. flammable environments where electrical equipment is too much of a risk.

https://control.com/textbook/closed-loop-control/pneumatic-p...

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by diarrhea on Thursday January 13, 2022 @02:49AM (#29917926)
Mechanical, i.e. pneumatic, PID controllers were one of the most incredible things to learn about in university.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by bumby on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:27PM (#29910888)
They aren't really the same types of systems.

Pneumatic "muscle pressure" is common in lots of industrial applications, especially those that operate in austere environments. But those are different than the tech being researched in the article in large part because the mechanical compressors in industrial applications are hugely inefficient. Many constant volume compressors have 90%+ of the energy as waste heat.

I believe the article is referencing isobaric (constant pressure) compressed air energy storage (CAES) that have much better efficiencies.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by mabbo on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @04:48PM (#29913164)
Oh I agree it's not quite the same as in the article. I was comparing to what the parent comment was saying about large pneumatic tube networks in ages past.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by cinntaile on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:22PM (#29911577)
How does this work? How can you compress air without raising the pressure? Are you sure you don't mean adiabatic?
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by ryan_j_naughton on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:22PM (#29912232)
According to PV=nRT (ideal gas law), no you cannot in a closed system!!! But Hydrostor isn't violating any laws of physics -- they are simply capturing that heat so that it doesn't become waste heat!

Hydrostor has a thermal management system that captures the heat and stores is during compression. Then it reuses the heat when it is decompressing the air.[1]

This seem extremely promising as a much smaller footprint solution than pumped storage and much more sustainable and lower cost than any other energy storage solution. I just heard about them today, and I'm extremely impressed.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWjwwKSR78

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by labawi on Sunday January 16, 2022 @11:19AM (#29957228)
That doesn't seem isobaric. Searching if it's possible, I've seen mentions of condensing working fluids, and bumby mentions ocean floor bags which seem like a good solution.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by bumby on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @05:15PM (#29913485)
An external pressure (usually water) keeps it at a constant pressure.

Think of a bag of air under water on the ocean floor. The height of the water column is (relatively) constant, so the pressure in the bag is also constant. The air is being compressed as it goes from sea level into the bag, but inside the bag, the pressure is always the same. If you define the system boundary as the bag, it's an isobaric system. The volume changes, but the pressure is constant. Contrast that to the compressor you might have in your garage where the rigid tank provides a constant volume, but the internal pressure changes.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by throw8932894 on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:06PM (#29910579)
It is pretty common in regular workshops. Compressed air powers drills, riveting machines, sprays guns, jack hammers... Tools powered by compressed air are simpler (no electronics), more durable and cheaper.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by bin_bash on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:27PM (#29911646)
You forgot the most important reason they're used: they're far more powerful!
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by mnahkies on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:34PM (#29910994)
My favourite thing about air tools was not having to worry about batteries (most electric hand tools I've used are battery only so no opportunity to use an extension lead like you use an air hose)
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by throwawayboise on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:47PM (#29911165)
The motor also doesn't create sparks so they are more useful in flamable atmospheres.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by grawprog on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:01PM (#29911340)
Most electric hand tools are usually available for cheaper in a corded variety. The only electric hand tool I haven't seen come corded are impact drivers and most impact drivers I've used will last a day or two using it 8 hours a day even off a 2aH battery.

For me, I like air powered tools because of their power and reliability. They'll almost always have more torque and power than similar electric tools.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by WheatM on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:26PM (#29911632)
Air tools defintely don't have more torque than electric tools, they rely on speed to overcome their shortcomings in torque. The main high torque application in air tools is in impact wrenches, which use very fast hammering action. Modern battery impact wrenches can match the performance of the best air wrenches.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @07:45PM (#29915240)
A top of the line M18 fuel impact (a $300 tool, before the $100 battery) is only equivalent with its air analog on the 1/365th of the year shop pressure runs at 90 because the OSHA guy is poking around and it's a heck of a lot bulkier.

When you start getting into 3/4 and 1" it's not even a comparison.

The cordless is nice to have but it's a luxury/convenience tool, not a replacement.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by RickJWagner on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @08:40PM (#29915746)
I saw a similar thing in a very old building, I think from the early 1900s.

The web of tubes was for messaging. (Just like some bank drive-ins work.) Users would put paper messages in capsules which were put into a pipe. Compressed air would carry the message to a central switching station, where human operators would re-route the message to the proper destination tube.

It was pretty cool, in a steam-punk sort of way.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by freefal on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:14PM (#29909685)
A bit tangential, but New York City has an operating steam system that's still widely used by commercial customers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by radicaldreamer on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:54PM (#29910388)
San Francisco has one too, used primarily for heating buildings https://clearwaycommunityenergy.com/system_lists/energy-cent...
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by dmix on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:38PM (#29911055)
The interesting part of the NYC one is the scale

> Today, Consolidated Edison operates the largest commercial steam system in the world (larger than the next nine combined).

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by antupis on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:29PM (#29910916)
District heating is pretty normal at northern Europe altought now we use mostly water.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by m4rtink on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @04:04PM (#29912652)
The district heating in Brno here in Czech Republic is in the process of converting from steam to hot water, mainly due to cost savings. Modern isolated hot water pipes loose a negligible ammount of heat in transfer while there was green grass growing on top of the old buried steam pipes even in winter.

That and the old textile industry that directly used steam no longer exists.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by pinot on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:31PM (#29911688)
District heating with water is vastly more safe, I imagine that's why its used.

I remember my apartment in germany had a "Heat" meter on the water line, always wondered how that worked.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by krab on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:58PM (#29912582)
We have a calorimeter - it should count volume of hot water times the temperature difference. I heard it's not very precise.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by Naga on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:52PM (#29911233)
Downtown Ottawa has a similar steam system too, although I think it's mostly government buildings instead of private, commercial buildings that are hooked up to it.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by wefarrell on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:53PM (#29912519)
It is funny (if not terrifying) that we have literal geysers spring up on crowded city streets every once in a while.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by samstave on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @11:37AM (#29909020)
There also used to be "central turbines" whereby there was a central spinning rod that one could attach belts to in order to spin a thing to get work out of it...

called line and shaft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qt5tltnvF8

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by DrBoring on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:32PM (#29910974)
I once saw this in use at a restaurant to drive ceiling fans. I looked up some videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-uCvwEq3co

https://youtu.be/1IWTM1rNCnw?t=78

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by Smoosh on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @08:29PM (#29915634)
And a similar system used to be common for shearing: https://www.sheepcentral.com/wool-growers-support-call-to-ph...
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by snalty on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @11:47AM (#29909221)
There's a cool working example of this at Kelham Island Museum in Sheffield, England.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by Someone on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:35PM (#29911736)
That was normal in the age of steam. Having lots of tiny steam engines on the factory floor does not make sense. Keeping them running is too labor intensive, they would be fire risks, and they’re less efficient.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by DuskStar on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:05PM (#29912070)
And in the age of water, running shafts to the waterwheel was vastly easier than having a wheel at each station.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by cjrp on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @11:40AM (#29909084)
Really cool, sort of like how an ICE drives ancillaries
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by spenczar5 on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @11:44AM (#29909145)
Cool indeed, but pretty dangerous and difficult to reconfigure. Electric wires and motors are so much smaller, and easier to protect, and more interoperable, so you can see why they won out.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @11:48AM (#29909228)
That was one of the reasons behind having factory whistles: all workers take their places, the whistle, then the whole thing is started. While it's running people are not supposed to move around.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by _pmf_ on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @11:46AM (#29909199)
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by caseyohara on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:24PM (#29912247)
This is interesting:

"This was a crisis. Without electricity, the Amish couldn’t store milk, and the church was adamant that Amish were not going connect to the local electric company. Finally a solution was found. It was decided that diesel generators could be used to power the refrigerators. This decision allowed the Amish to continue their tradition as dairy farmers without having to use public electricity."

So the Amish are allowed to use electricity, just not from the public grid? Generators seem like a weird loophole to their own rules.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by s1mon on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:52PM (#29912503)
If you think this is weird, wait until you see the convoluted/clever things that some Jewish people do to work around the sabbath.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by flyinghamster on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @04:22PM (#29912846)
> So the Amish are allowed to use electricity, just not from the public grid? Generators seem like a weird loophole to their own rules.

That depends greatly on the congregation. Each congregation sets its own rules on how to deal with technology. "Not inside the home" is a very common technological limit. Cell phones might be stored in a shed, fed by solar chargers, for use out in the field. A workshop might have electricity from a wind/solar installation or even a diesel generator, but not the attached house.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by userbinator on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:31PM (#29912319)
If they are against centralisation, that makes sense; but then, unless you drill your own wells and refine the crude yourself, you're still getting fuel from someone else.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by labawi on Sunday January 16, 2022 @11:25AM (#29957285)
I think it's against against dependence. You can choose who you buy your diesel from, and you store a however big tank of diesel you deem appropriate. In stark contrast to a powerline.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by MSFT_Edging on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:36PM (#29911018)
There was an article on here earlier about Amish tech and they also make use of a lot of pneumatic machines for daily tasks.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by rcurry on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:28PM (#29912286)
I once took a tour of the Mabel Tainter theater in Menomonie Wisconsin. The original light fixtures had been built to work off of both gas and electricity, just in case the whole newfangled electricity thing didn’t work out.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by adrianmonk on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:22PM (#29910816)
That is an interesting system (which I had never heard of), but it seems pretty different from this.

The London system used water under pressure and was used for power distribution, whereas this one compresses air and is for energy storage.

And the Wikipedia article says the London system used "large vertical pistons" with weights to store energy, whereas this one pressurizes air.

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by javajosh on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:11PM (#29909640)
Zeppelins with modern materials and technology would be very, very cool. I'd ride in one.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by Melatonic on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:48PM (#29910286)
The military is actually doing a ton of work with blimp and zeppelin like things currently - you do not hear about it much but there is a a ton of testing and research being done.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by xwdv on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:44PM (#29910202)
What would be even cooler is zeppelins with swimming pools and jacuzzis while you take in the views of the sky.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:53PM (#29911237)
Made out of transparent material, so you could look down too.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by javajosh on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:47PM (#29910266)
I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by dr_dshiv on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:55PM (#29911264)
Glass-bottomed ballroom, anyone?
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @02:09PM (#29911428)
Plane spotting gets a new color with that.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by mderazon on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @04:57PM (#29913273)
Isn't that the concept behind "streampunk" ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @12:34PM (#29910055)
The University of Iowa campus has a steam system under the campus, installed in the last century. Nowadays the steam is recovered waste from the electric plant. But it's still in use!
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by bumby on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @01:30PM (#29910929)
If you want to find good candidates for saving the campus tons of money, go to the roof of one of the tallest buildings on a cold day and look for the buildings that are venting lots of steam. They likely have a failed steam trap somewhere in the building. It's not uncommon for failed steam traps to save thousands of dollars a year apiece when fixed.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by duxup on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @09:17PM (#29916002)
University of Minnesota too, not long ago replaced their old boilers and main steam plant.
Re:Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage by IncRnd on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @03:08PM (#29912092)
Hydraulic refers to liquid. Pneumatic refers to compressed air.