News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by housecarpenter on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:47AM (#29794650)
It's happened again and again with other words. "often" (older pronunciation: "offen"), "Anthony" (older pronunciation: "Antony") and "tortoise" (older pronunciation: "tortuss") are examples where the spelling pronunciation still hasn't totally won out. Words where the spelling pronunciation has reached fixation include "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken"), "reptile" (older pronunciation: "reptil"), "sphere" (older pronunciation: "spear"), "bankrupt" (older pronunciation: "bankrout"), "baptism" (older pronunciation: "baptime"), and "perfect" (older pronunciation: "parfit").
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by dkdbejwi383 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:19AM (#29794976)
> It's happened again and again with other words. "often" (older pronunciation: "offen"), "Anthony" (older pronunciation: "Antony") and "tortoise" (older pronunciation: "tortuss") are examples where the spelling pronunciation still hasn't totally won out.

What are the "new" pronunciations for these? I'm a native speaker and I'd pronounce them the way you've indicated is "older".

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by SilasX on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:32AM (#29795120)
Yeah and my mom would even scold me, growing up, for pronouncing the t in often.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by SilasX on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:00PM (#29796982)
Follow-up shower thought: French kids must deal with that on steroids, since a) most terminal consonant letters are silent, and b) it's mandatory to contract <le> to <l'> before a word that stars with a vowel sound. (Used <> as quotation markers just because the other options make it hard to parse.)
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by toyg on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:07AM (#29795524)
You must be a posh RP speaker ;-)

The way I hear them here in the North (of England), from most common folks, is Of-Ten, An-th-ony (with TH from "the"), and Tor-Toy-s. The T in "often" can be very short but it's definitely there.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by rossitter on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:40AM (#29796745)
> An-th-ony (with TH from "the")

Out of curiosity, is it definitely the voiced TH from "the," rather than the unvoiced TH from "thing?"

In the US the spelling pronunciation of Anthony is by far the more common (at least in my experience), but I've never heard it with a voiced TH.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by chadlavi on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:29PM (#29798968)
I think they must have meant the unvoiced "th" from "thing" not the voiced "th from "the". I've only ever heard "Anþony". I can't imagine any native English speaker saying "Anðony" unless they're drunk or otherwise slurring their speech significantly.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by julesnp on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:14AM (#29795597)
In Canadian English we use the "Antony" and "tortuss" pronunciations as well. For "often", I usually only pronounce the 't' if the word is stressed in the sentence.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by pnut on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:31AM (#29795115)
off-ten An-thunny tor-toys
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by sulam on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:17AM (#29796468)
I was with you until tortoise. US English speaker here, but I have literally never heard anyone say “tor-toys”. I think I’d have a serious moment if I did. Is there some link you can throw our way to demonstrate the point? YouTube?
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by rossitter on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:51AM (#29796867)
I can say I have heard this from native speakers, but I can't pull up any YouTube links right now. I suspect I've heard it from people who don't always go by the spelling pronunciation, in the same way many people who insert a T sound into often don't always do so. (I include myself in the "variable often" group.)

For what it's worth the Oxford English Dictionary lists /ˈtɔːtɔɪs/ ("TAW-toice") and /'tɔːtɔɪz/ ("TAW-toiz") as alternate pronunciations in British English. This appears to be the result of a revision made to the entry sometime after 1989. (The public-facing revision history is not very precise.)

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by the_greyd on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:32PM (#29797371)
As someone from India, "tor-toys" is what you would hear from most Indians. For most words of the kind, in india they would be pronounced in exactly the way that would make you remember the spelling of the word (since you are graded on that). I would bet that's the case with most non native speakers.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by throwaway8451 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:24PM (#29797262)
Here is an example by the singer / band "Marina and the Diamonds". The song is called "Forget":

https://youtu.be/17UL5ks9amY?t=169

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by kerneloftruth on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:03AM (#29794814)
I find that in the past few years I encounter more people (native English speakers) who intentionally pronounce the T in often. I notice that several are NPR correspondents, which makes me think some are saying it to "sound smart". It's funny, really.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by toyg on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:12AM (#29795577)
> some are saying it to "sound smart". It's funny, really.

You're implying that traditional, complex, and arbitrary pronounciations should be considered "smarter" than logical, simpler, and hence modern ones because...?

Pronounciation is a inherently classist concept; the harder you make it, the more you entrench classism and intolerance into society. Regardless of the motivation for such correspondents to use a modern form, I personally would applaud it as progress, rather than sneering at it.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by kerneloftruth on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:24AM (#29795711)
Do you pronounce the T in "soften"... maybe you use fabric "sof-ten-er"? Do you have a brush with "bris-tels"? Those would be more inclusive and modern pronunciations?

"I personally would applaud it as progress"

One man's progress is another man's regress. Maybe it's the result of the "Hooked on Phonics" generation having grown up.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by toyg on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:45AM (#29795982)
> Do you pronounce the T in "soften"

Yes, but I'm not a native speaker, so I have the privilege of seeing the matter from a more neutral perspective. And what I see, when it comes to pronounciations, is that traditionalism is largely illogical, and maintained simply as a way to signal exclusion. It looks harmless on some levels (i.e. figuring out whether somebody is "local" by the way they pronounce certain topological names), but more often than not it's just used to discriminate between education-rich and education-poor, which then translates into straightforward classism where educational systems are deeply and fundamentally classist (like in England or the US).

> Those would be more inclusive and modern pronunciations?

Yes.

> One man's progress is another man's regress.

For sure. After all, a few Catholics were ecstatic when pope Benedict XVI reinstated and promoted saying mass in Latin, effectively trying to revert a century of progress. But fighting actual and logical progress tends to be a losing proposition in the long run, and that particular movement kinda died off quickly.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by yeldarb on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:37AM (#29795175)
If you don’t pronounce the “t” in “often”, how do you pronounce “oft”?
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by tdeck on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:29AM (#29796612)
If you don't pronounce the "t" in "listen", how do you pronounce "list"?
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by jazzyjackson on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:56AM (#29795415)
what kind of hoighty-toighty high-falutin podcast-producer uses the word "oft" in spoken english?
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by selimthegrim on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:08PM (#29797073)
Oft-injured, oft-changing...
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by SamBam on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:44AM (#29795966)
> "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken")

I'm unsure of the difference between the old and new here. Does anyone pronounce the "l" in "falcon" by touching their tongue to the roof of their mouth?

I pronounce the "l" similarly in "fault", which is kind of "fau-t".

(If you're just referring to the "a" sound, like the a in "fall" vs "fat" then that's a different question, but I think quite regional.)

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Ancapistani on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:08AM (#29796334)
Both of "falcon" and "fault" have very clear "l" sounds to me, both when I speak them or when I hear them spoken by someone else.

I'm near the Missouri/Arkansas border, for what it's worth.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by housecarpenter on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:28PM (#29798135)
The L in "falcon" in the spelling pronunciation is a "dark" L, which is a pretty different sound from the "light" L, but it's still there. In most accents of English L regularly manifests with the "dark" sound before a consonant or at the end of a word, and with the "light" sound elsewhere.

Both L sounds involve raising the tongue, but with the light L the tip of tongue approaches the alveolar ridge (the part of your gum just behind your top row of teeth), while with the dark L the tip of the tongue does the same thing, but the back of the tongue simultaneously rises towards the soft palate (this is called "velarization", and it's the same gesture that accompanies lip-rounding to form a W sound). There may be further differences depending on accent, e.g. in Cockney accents the tongue-tip gesture of dark L is lost completely so that dark L becomes a fully-fledged vowel, and it might even acquire lip-rounding and merge with W. Other accents have lost the distinction as well and generalized either light L or dark L to all positions (e.g. Scottish English tends to use dark L everywhere).

In the older pronunciation of "falcon", there's no L there at all, light or dark. It was borrowed from Old French "faucon", and the L was restored in spelling via Latin influence in more or less exactly the same way as the B in "debt".

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by xeromal on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:57AM (#29796173)
I have a hard l in my pronunciation of falcon. FAL-CON. I'm from Appalachia though so we tend to have drawn out pronunciations of everything. lol

Hell, I'm pretty sure captain falcon in smash brothers also has a hard L in "falcon punch!"

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Ancapistani on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:11AM (#29796370)
Ozarkian here - we have names where additional syllables are added when we're annoyed with the person.

It's "Karen" in normal conversation, but if she brought storebought cookies to the potluck it's "Kar-in-nuh", with the emphasis on the last syllanble.

In my head, these are called "spite syllables" :)

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by xeromal on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:34AM (#29796663)
If that doesn't work, you can always whip out the "Bless your heart".
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Ancapistani on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:43AM (#29796784)
Or "special" - "You didn't miss Karen's special cookies, did ya?"

That would usually be coupled with a very veiled reference to how she put in the minimum possible effort while indirectly insulting her entire bloodline: "Oh, don't you just feel for Karen? I don't know how she gets anything done with those kids of hers."

Alternatively, if the speaker wants to embarrass her in front of someone with a higher social standing; "Karen, these cookies are just the best thing ever! What do you put in these to make them so good?"

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by fknorangesite on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:02PM (#29797006)
> "You didn't miss Karen's special cookies, did ya?"

Hah. Where I live this would mean they have marijuana in them.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Kiro on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:00AM (#29796218)
I pronounce both falcon and fault with a full L.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:16AM (#29796445)
In my Dialect both of those L are pronounced.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by gmuslera on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:20AM (#29795663)
Sometimes is easier to transmit how it should really sound using the phonetic alphabet (i.e. ˈtɔrtəs instead of tortoise), but it is a bit harder to write with normal keyboards, and you have to learn how each phoneme sound. Used a lot tophonetics.com when was trying to learn how some texts were supposed to be spoken.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Ancapistani on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:13AM (#29796405)
Thanks for this link!

Growing up somewhere with a strong accent (the Ozarks), I often find myself in the position of knowing exactly the right word to use in a situation, but having never heard it spoken aloud. I've always intended to learn how to use a phonetic alphabet (e.g., IPA) but haven't had an easy path to it.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by vehemenz on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:10AM (#29795563)
The new pronunciations seem conventional enough now, although "offen/often" can go either way, and I can't say I've ever heard anyone pronounce "tortoise" in a newer way. Is it supposed to sound like the end of "turquoise?"
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by rossitter on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:50PM (#29797589)
> Is it supposed to sound like the end of "turquoise?"

Yes, though some speakers use an S rather than a Z sound (think "choice").

I have only heard these pronunciations from British speakers.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by vehemenz on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:43PM (#29798346)
Even weirder than I thought.

I look forward to hearing that from Zoomer college students any time soon then.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by jhanschoo on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:37AM (#29805896)
I think Anthony is a natural English development; Latin has Antonius and french has Antoine. Affricatization is a common process
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by onychomys on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:08AM (#29795541)
I had a paleontology professor as an undergrad who did reptile as rep-tul (reptle, maybe?), and I kind of loved it. I have no idea where he picked it up, he was from middle America and had a solidly American accent. He was quite old at the time, though, so maybe it was from when he was a kid.