My family hosted a Taiwanese exchange student when I was in high school. One day, he and I were out seeing the town. He discovered a Chinese Tea house in an out-of-the-way corner, and we stopped in.

The owner, a Chinese expat, greeted us enthusiastically and personally sat down to serve us tea. The conversation was lovely; she was explaining the source of the tea, the preparation and serving method, etc. and I was just enjoying the experience when she offhandedly asked where he was from.

When he responded, "Taiwan," she immediately frowned and made some terse comment in Mandarin, to which he retorted, also in Mandarin. There was a tense exchange, and then she abruptly turned to me and started asking me questions again in English, changing the subject.

I had not yet learned of the One-China stance, so when we left I asked him what happened. He told me that she admonished him for not saying he was from "Chinese Taipei", and apparently some other nasty remarks he decided not to translate.

It was such a shock to see that level of nationalism exhibit itself in real-time. She was genuinely offended and angry, not annoyed. I suspect if I hadn't been there, she'd have told him to leave immediately.

This story sounds doubtful to me. It's perfectly OK for a Chinese to say that they are from Taiwan, and Chinese, be it from the mainland or Taiwan, always say that: They're from Taiwan, Beijing, Guangdong, you name it. It's like saying which state you're from in the US.

No-one ever says "Chinese Taipei", certainly not among Chinese, which is just some political compromise, mostly in the Olympic Committee.

The only issue I can think of is if the question was specifically about the country of origin, in which case some people may indeed object to "Taiwan" and argue that it should be "China" instead (but not "Chinese Taipei"...)

Depends on the context. The term "Taiwan" standalone is neutral, but e.g. having "Taiwan" and "China" in e.g. a list of countries would not be.

I've been asked many times in mainland China where I was from, and I say "Taiwan" without any issues.

Hi there!

Sorry if there is confusion; it was several years ago and I don't remember it word-for-word -- you're probably right about Chinese Taipei. The student was very, very gracious and anglicized a lot of things when translating. He even used an English name in addition to his normal name.

I imagine, for example, the hostess caught some nuance I missed, or followed up in Chinese to confirm his opinion on sovereignty. I was really just following tone and facial expression.

I could call and ask him if he remembers, but from my understanding, he unfortunately has to have difficult conversations like that quite a lot, and I don't know if this one would even stand out.

I think you're over-literally interpreting what above poster said. Above poster probably doesn't speak Mandarin so their retelling might be missing some nuance.

Please stop taking HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar.

Believe me, I understand the frustrations of representing a minority point of view, but if you vent that frustration by tossing flamebait around, you're not only damaging the container we all depend on here, you're discrediting what you're trying to advocate for. That helps nothing and is not in your interests.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't think jumping down someone's throat for innocent ignorance is too productive.

And speaking as someone who has lived in China, their misconceptions of the West are comically bad as well. That's what you get with state controlled media and people learning about the West by watching Friends or Transformers.

> And speaking as someone who has lived in China, their misconceptions of the West are comically bad as well.

Not sure who you met, but a typical young person in China (aged under 40) would know more about the West than a young person in the West would know about China. Young people in China also know how to use VPNs to bypass the 'Great Firewall' to find whatever information they require.

> Not sure who you met, but a typical young person in China (aged under 40) would know more about the West than a young person in the West would know about China.

Only 60% of Chinese even attend high school (which isn’t compulsory), you are making a huge claim about the typical young person in China a when China is a huge country. Your claim might be true for comparing young Chinese in the big cities to all young Americans (including in small towns), but that isn’t a very fair comparison.

> Young people in China also know how to use VPNs to bypass the 'Great Firewall' to find whatever information they require.

VPNs to jump the GFW are incredibly unreliable (they tend to disappear after you pay your yearly fee), most don’t bother.

Are you speaking from any first-hand experience here? What people know is what they see in tv and movies.

It's not glossing over, it's a rebuttal.

> Western understanding of the rest of the world is severely lacking

I would wager that Western countries, on average, have a better view of the world than non-Western countries, if for no other reason than the privileges their wealth and liberalism entail. Do you think the average Russian, African, South American, Chinese, (Yes, I'm aware some of that list is continents, and some is countries) etc. has access to a greater wealth of information and experience with regard to the Rest of the world?

Keep in mind I'm not saying this as a point of superiority or anything, just pointing out your lack of a well-grounded point.

I find it frustrating that so much discussion about other countries is based on hearsay and offhand translation, especially in the case of China where it seems few Western commenters even understand the language, much less the culture.

Sure, if you are comparing populations as a whole, but if you are comparing the subsets of educated people from each country that are participating in the global discourse I strongly disagree. There's no point in comparing the average Russian or African or Chinese person. Are we ever interacting with them? Do they drive any policy?

> find it frustrating that so much discussion about other countries is based on hearsay and offhand translation

It's frustrating when talking about any subject. The problem is, this is how people digest information. They take in pieces and regurgitate it. Hopefully they are open minded enough to take criticism so that over time the regurgitations get more accurate. The discussion is important for everyone, but not everyone is going to know everything at once.

As far as grouping together entire populations: Totally agree. There is no point in making sweeping generalizations, which is why I pointed out the parents bad argument. Not only was it a pointless point to make, but it was also wrong. 'Westerns' are no more ignorant about the world than 'non-Westerners'.

Educated Westerners generally know far less about China than educated Chinese people know about the West.

This really shows in conversations about China. Anti-Chinese propaganda has dramatically ratcheted up in the West (it really began during the Trump administration), and since most people know nothing about China to begin with, they basically believe what they're exposed to in the media. People are operating with such a wildly distorted, wacky view of China that it's nearly impossible to have an intelligent discussion about the country.

> Educated Westerners generally know far less about China than educated Chinese people know about the West.

Source?

>Anti-Chinese propaganda has dramatically ratcheted up in the West (it really began during the Trump administration), and since most people know nothing about China to begin with, they basically believe what they're exposed to in the media.

If that's your argument, I'd like to point out how much more distorted the news is within China than within liberal democratic nations. You don't honestly believe the Chinese media feeds a more accurate view of the world to it's constituents do you? They literally outlaw information, and have what essentially constitutes a CCP controlled national intranet. If we were to rank China against ALL western nations for information and journalism freedom they'd be dead last: https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I, as an educated American, have worked with people from 12 different countries, for a number of years each, across 3 companies that have employed me. All within the U.S. borders. How many non-Western countries have such a wonderful amount of diversity?

> Source?

I've interacted extensively with educated people in the West and China. The asymmetry is obvious.

Most educated people in the West have almost no clue about China. Most educated Chinese people at least speak English to some degree, they're heavily exposed to Western popular culture, and many use VPNs to get around the Great Firewall.

> I'd like to point out how much more distorted the news is within China than within liberal democratic nations.

The news in China is, of course, heavily biased.

However, when it comes to coverage of China, the news media in Western countries does a terrible job. Coverage is extremely distorted, and focuses almost exclusively on whatever issues the current US government is pushing (Xinjiang, Taiwan, etc.). Almost anything will be presented in a negative light. China builds a railway in Laos: is China trying to debt-trap Laos? China exports over a billion doses of vaccine: can we trust Chinese vaccines?

I don't think watching CNN or reading the NY Times regularly will confer even a basic understanding of China. The picture you'll get will be warped beyond recognition.

> Most educated Chinese people at least speak English to some degree, they're heavily exposed to Western popular culture

So, anecdotally that's your experience, ok. I don't think a greater exposure to pop-culture necessarily makes on better equipped to talk about the ethics of censorship, forced labor, and the dangers of centralized systems. I'd wager as far as substantive information goes, the asymmetry you're describing doesn't exist.

> I don't think watching CNN or reading the NY Times regularly will confer even a basic understanding

Most people, educated or not, know this. Thankfully we have access to the entire internet and the entire body of human literature, even among those not tech savvy enough to use a VPN.

My argument is not 'cable news does a great job', my argument is 'the wests liberal access to information and wealth affords it's affluent and educated a more complete and clear picture of the world', which you are failing to rebut.

> So, anecdotally that's your experience

Yes, anecdotally, almost every single educated person I know in the West is remarkably ignorant about China. They don't know even the most basic things, like the names of the major provinces or the names of cities with 15 million people. They couldn't tell you the first thing about Chinese history. When did the empire fall? They couldn't name one major Chinese literary figure in the last 500 years.

I'm talking about people who are fairly international, who might speak a few different European languages. The sheer lack of knowledge is really striking.

I don't think it's the case that the people I know are almost all anomalous in this way. Knowledge of China is simply near zilch in the West.

Young, educated Chinese people practically all speak English to at least a basic level. That already gives them more knowledge about the West than the average educated Westerner has of China.

> forced labor

I'm assuming you're talking about Xinjiang. This is an issue that I am certain your average person in China understands far better than your average New York Times reader. The programs that are being labeled "forced labor" by the US government are fairly well known in China. With a lot of these types of China stories that hit the news from time to time in the West, you'll find that the average taxi driver in China knows more detail than what you'll read in Western newspapers. The idea that Westerners know what's going on in China better than people in China do is just hubris.

Maybe, maybe not, but your comment doesn't really make a case for either in earnest.

Not necessary. There's a chance that they support their government, and they didn't want to hear the usual western stuff about freedom and how bad their country is. I had many similar experiences as a student. Western students would start this discussion to Chinese students in anticipation of hearing how oppressed they feel. What they would often get is an irritated Chinese student who will tell them that it's hard to control 1.3 billion people and that their government has done a lot of them etc. And the western student's brains would hardwire unable to accept that answer and conclude "Clearly they're brainwashed" :D PS: I'm not taking sides here

I’ve worked primarily with Chinese for years, both inside and outside of China. They consistently poke fun at and speak thoughtfully about the government and policy. It’s possible they just had learned to avoid being baited by westerners looking to confirm a certain narrative.

Reminds me of when I was back in high school in the very early 2000's. We had a Chinese girl in our class and during a History lesson about Mao she started crying and yelling that everything the teacher was saying was wrong, that Mao was the greatest leader, etc.

She was not visiting from China, she literally had been in Europe for more than a decade, and still.

Maybe it was that specific group of people? All my associates from China had no problems discussing these issues (and three Ts) with me. Some were supporting the party, some weren't, but they still shared.

No one, naturally, would blog about it or openly shout on the street but families and friends (from what I've heard) do talk about these political issues.

That's been my experience too. When traveling to China, we were given a class and they advised us to not discuss any politics, even American ones, overseas. Other items that were "off topic" including voting, rights for non-traditional lifestyles, abortion, death penalties, taxes, and discussions about world conflicts.

Abortion world be on the list of taboo topics when touring the US as well.

Not because it's sensitive everywhere, but because it's very sensitive in some places.

Sort of, you can talk freely in America about abortion without fear of death; we're literally doing it right now.

I think what you're referring to what is socially appropriate. Most of these topics would be poor taste to discuss in public, but the mere act of doing so wouldn't land you in the back of a windowless van, which is the difference.

I don't know about those people in particular, but the way totalitarian states have worked in the past is to have them report secretly on each other. This keeps everyone in a constant state of fear and oppression.

Read Koba the Dread by Martin Amis for a powerful, extremely well-written account of it.

May they simply did not want to be put on the spot by getting into a political argument. Arguably you brought up a topic not suitable for a social dinner with colleagues.

Nobody was arguing, we were interested in their view. You don't know how close we were on a daily basis.

Discussing politics is always getting into argument territory and always best avoided on social occasions, especially if you do not know the opinions of the people around you.

For instance, I (in Europe) don't "lightly suggest" things in the US are difficult when it comes to guns/Trump/abortion/etc to American colleagues because these are sensitive political topics and nothing good can come out of that. You mentioned it was in South America so maybe another example would be to mention drug cartels and Pablo Escobar to Colombian colleagues.

I can imagine your Chinese colleagues thinking "here we go again..." and politely stirring the conversation to another topic.

You're imagining wrong and assuming a lot of things.

"Lightly suggesting" something is "difficult" is a conversation starter. Not arguing.

Maybe we're getting into "cultural differences" area and we should probably agree to disagree.

I did not say that you were arguing. I just pointed out that you were starting a conversation that could lead nowhere pleasant for anyone so your guests probably wisely stirred away from it.

Or, you’re making a ton of conjecture without knowing the situation, the people involved, their relationship, what was actually said, the emotional context, and are forming all of these opinions stated as fact from a few lines of text on an HN comment.

I wish people were more charitable on HN, on the internet, and in life.

I think what's uncharitable is assuming that someone is 'afraid to speak out' just because they don't want to wade into politics.

What a strange comment, the most uncharitable one I've read in a while on HN. I didn't pick up anything uncharitable at all in the comment you are complaining about, while yours reeks of it - and in the same breath publicly wishing everyone else were more charitable!

What was not charitable in simply suggesting an alternative explanation that did not involve fear of retribution? This is a friendly discussion (or so I thought).

You told the GP how they should not act during dinner conversations, and double downed despite the GP telling you that you didn’t know how close they were. That comes off to me not respecting what they were telling you about their relationship, which is uncharitable in my book. Given my upvotes, I’m not the only one that feels that way.

Separately, plenty of good relationships can discuss politics without issue, and to not do so would leave the world only to their information bubbles.

It is better for someone that does support the Chinese government not to voice their support in the West. It will avoid many conflicts. This goes for pretty much anyone who agrees with an unpopular regime and is a popular practice.

> not a single Chinese national around to report them

You said "people", "they", and "them" -- all plural. Did you talk to them separately, one-on-one, or were they afraid of being denounced by each other?