News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by matheusmoreira on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:34AM (#29485973)
> "artificially" amplifying information

Isn't that the whole point of Twitter?

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by errcorrectcode on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:36AM (#29486005)
It depends if Twitter's censors agree with the views expressed or not.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by mountainb on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:52AM (#29487108)
There should be a federal law that requires that these moderation teams keep extensive records of their censorship work product in order to maintain their immunity. This censorship work product would then be have to be made available in discovery.

Lawsuits challenging a censorship action or account suspension relating to censorship should be granted an exception to the otherwise binding arbitration agreement.

The purpose of this would be to deter ad hoc political censorship, and to instead encourage these companies to move towards a more procedure driven censorship system in which they simply respond to court orders and leave everything else up. So, for example, if I sued the John Doe operating this account for copyright infringement or if a law enforcement agency won a court order to get the account taken down for posting illegal pornography, that's fine, that's how things are supposed to work.

If instead the service is just arbitrarily censoring people, they have to keep strict records of their work products and produce those records in discovery. The companies would also have a hard time deflecting responsibility onto individual censors because almost anything that they could possibly do would be within the scope of their employment.

Yes, this would make what most of these companies do with their censorship teams economically impractical. That's the point.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by errcorrectcode on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @09:27PM (#29493108)
There's several problems with centralized web service corporations maintaining effectively public commons on for-profit "private property" and being regulated by one government or another: they can do anything they want if they don't offend the government structures, they're also at the behest and service of a particular government who can tell them what they can and can't do, they're not classified or regulated as utilities, and can censor any idea or push whatever agendas they like (or whoever pays them enough).

Only a nonprofit out-of-reach of any particular governments' jurisdiction can remain neutral, but they also need minimal, clear, healthy, and conscientious moderation to not be springboards for harmful activities.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by joshuamorton on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:56AM (#29487165)
Under what claim would you file a lawsuit against a private company about censorship? Or are you asking for the first amendment to be repealed?
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by ttybird on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:23PM (#29487580)
I thought that the first amendment was about people rather than companies. In addition to that there are many products where companies have to display certain information, such as age rating for games, health warrnings on cigaretts, food content, allergy warning, nutrition labels, medicine side-effects, etc

It is hard to classify censorship as speech for a site that it is all about user-content.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by nradov on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:25PM (#29488419)
From a legal perspective, corporations are people too. Age ratings for games are voluntary, not legally required. The Supreme Court has held that governments can impose some limits and requirements on purely commercial speech, but those precedents don't apply to censorship decisions made by private companies. The fact that a site contains mostly user generated content is legally irrelevant.

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/900/commercial-...

I understand that some people don't like this situation but that is the reality of US federal law today. It won't change without a Constitutional amendment, or a major realignment of the Supreme Court.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by mountainb on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:22PM (#29492390)
It's the corporate person, distinct from a 'natural person.' Corporate persons have many but not all of the effective rights as a natural person does.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by joshuamorton on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:09PM (#29488207)
Companies are just people as far as the constitution is concerned (or really they're groups of people, but assembly is also protected by the first amendment!)

The food safety labels is an interesting point, but I'm not even talking about gov regulations here. Just, let's say Twitter deletes your post. What do you sue them for?

The 1a allows twitters employees to express themselves as they wish, even through the company, so their removal of your post is simply their own protected expression.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by josefx on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:42PM (#29487849)
> I thought that the first amendment was about people rather than companies.

Any amendment written before slavery was abolished probably had a rather flexible view on the whole "people" issue. If an African American can be property then a corporation can be a person.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by xanaxagoras on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:13PM (#29488258)
This discussion has nothing to do with race. You're obsessed.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by josefx on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:58PM (#29488822)
> You're obsessed.

I made one comment on this and that makes me obsessed?

> This discussion has nothing to do with race.

The claim was that it applied to people, I merely mentioned that what the law considers people is a rather flexible thing.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by mountainb on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:20PM (#29492371)
I meant under the new fantasy legislation, probably different from some of the recent badly drafted / silly state laws trying to do the same thing. This would be what they would have to do to keep their Section 230 immunity.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by mdoms on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:30PM (#29487696)
What you're describing would be a ridiculously massive government overreach into a private company. I'm not American and I'm not some loony libertarian but you have to understand that private companies are and should be free to decide who they allow to use their service and under what conditions (within the bounds of anti discrimination laws).
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by kube-system on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:49AM (#29486169)
"artificial" is the key word -- it is referring to intentional manipulation rather than legitimate engagement.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by kipchak on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:07AM (#29486433)
While I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this user was botting their own account (I remember them tweeting the same photo on their Nancy account twice, attributed to different dates for example) this seems like an abusable ban condition. Couldn't I bot someone else's account in order to get them banned?
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by lp0_on_fire on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:54AM (#29486250)
Again...is that not the whole point of twitter?

Their _entire_ business model is predicated on their algorithm manipulating engagement. There's very little "organic" engagement on social media any more.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by sneak on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:31AM (#29486802)
Yes, but to benefit Twitter's advertisers/revenue, not you.

It's Twitter's audience, not yours. That's why I left: I got tired of sharecropping.

You can't spam, but they can inject ads inline.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by threeseed on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:49PM (#29488712)
Many of us use Twitter in chronological mode so their algorithm does little.

In which case I absolutely do not want accounts to be artificially increasing engagement.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by pohl on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:19AM (#29486597)
Is the point of your home to allow me to live there?
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by mc32 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:25AM (#29486698)
It’s building a community center but not letting the fat kids come play.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by kube-system on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:03PM (#29488132)
Every community center I am familiar with has rules about the types of events that can be held there.

Even more so when they're owned by specific interest groups.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by mc32 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:59PM (#29491094)
Presumably if they let Joey sell raffle tickets they would also let Marcie sell raffle tickets though.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by frenchyatwork on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:35PM (#29488535)
Yeah, but those rules are set by the communities that use them.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by kube-system on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:56PM (#29492926)
This is the case for some community centers, but definitely not all of them. It’s not the case for any of the 4 or 5 that are closest to my home. Many are run by private organizations.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by afrodc_ on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:12PM (#29488992)
Alternatively, it would be like kicking out the person trashing the place or screaming obscenities and making everyone uncomfortable, which is generally accepted in the real world.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by mc32 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:57PM (#29491074)
Sort of, we’d only kick out the lout we disagree with but let the other lout that we agree with continue spouting obscenities and we wink at each other and congratulate ourselves on our taste.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by barney54 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:49AM (#29486183)
And what does that mean?
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by kube-system on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:53AM (#29486237)
Their own descriptions are quite detailed:

https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/platform-mani...

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by sva_ on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:38AM (#29486915)
Maybe they mean that activity on the account has been retweeted/liked by bots a lot? Seems like social media engagement amplification is all the rage nowadays.

Good way to get an account suspended, I suppose.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by dang on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:47PM (#29488697)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29484989.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by q1w2 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:36AM (#29486001)
I think what they meant was that they detected bot activity associated with the account.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by logicalmonster on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:58AM (#29486314)
There's multiple huge problems if Twitter takes this approach to rules enforcement even if they're genuinely trying to be honest and unbiased.

1) Every account on Twitter has "bot activity associated with this account": if for no other reason that random advertising bots retweet, follow, or like random people and posts to attempt to blend in as a genuine account and hide their true purpose. This reasoning gives Twitter essentially carte blanche to delete everybody, even assuming they were willing to be fully transparent about the evidence surrounding their bans (which they're not).

2) Bad Actors can easily sabotage accounts they dislike. Here's just 1 method how this can be done: there's 10,001 shady fly by night firms in India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Vietnam, and other countries that offer services to "buy followers" or "buy retweets". It's trivial for somebody without programming skill and even a few hundred dollars to just buy mass spam and shill the hell out of an account (the lower quality the better) until somebody notices and that account gets banned.

You don't even have to assign bad motives to Twitter to see the obvious problems here.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by afavour on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:30AM (#29486787)
I suspect a key difference here is “all of the users other twitter accounts”. If a bunch of accounts registered to the same email address all start boosting each other that’s probably pretty easy to detect, and distinct from someone else trying to do it to you.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by joshuamorton on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:06PM (#29487308)
You appear to be assuming that the entire team of people at twitter who work on these problems either haven't considered or aren't able to address these issues. While there often are challenges with moderation and rules enforcement, this kind of stuff is pretty easy to address.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by dmpk2k on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:23PM (#29487574)
Given that I have wrestled with 2) in a different context, I'm quite interested in hearing the various (hopefully realistic) methods to address it.

Actually serious.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by logicalmonster on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:29PM (#29487689)
I would like to know too.

But if you look at that profile, he says he works at Google. Think about that for a second. He claims this is an easy problem. But consider Google's approach to spam detection algorithms and see how there are so many false positives and innocent people getting screwed out of their ad accounts and livelihood. If this kind of stuff was easy, why hasn't anybody informed Google about it?

I'm not trying to pick on anybody here, but I believe there's a level of arrogance in thinking that this form of sabotage is somehow a solvable problem unless you somehow have access to all communications on the planet.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by joshuamorton on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:42PM (#29487851)
I very specifically said that there were hard problems, just that this wasn't one ;)

In this case, a fairly straightforward account age rule would get you like 95% of the way there. My twitter account, which is 7 years old and has a few hundred followers and tweets once a week isn't going to benefit from this. You don't ban it. Similarly, you don't ban a 7 year old account with 10s of thousands of followers that's been doing the same kind of tweeting for 2 years and recently got a bunch of bot follows.

On the other hand, a 3 week old account with a ton of bot follows is suspicious. This'll miss older accounts that were unused and changed (e.g. if my account suddenly started tweeting 17x a day about divisive political content and suddenly got a bunch of bot follows, so you need slightly fancier approaches).

You probably further improve this with some kind of multifaceted account realness score based on a pagerank like analysis of followers (following bots lowers your score, as does being followed by them). And ofc you still ban the bots, but you don't punish any accounts above a certain threshold of "real".

The other part of it is that randomly sabotaging twitter accounts isn't going to happen very often, it costs money, and unless there's an ROI (extorting people), no one is going to do it except a handful of people for teh lulz or whatever. But importantly, most of those people will be bad at doing this kind of attack in a convincing way.

There are lots of difficult problems, but OP chose one that doesn't happen and is straightforward to address.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by nradov on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:34PM (#29488515)
Your proposal is quite naive and displays the type of aggressive ignorance all too common among software developers. Aged Twitter accounts with thousands of followers are available for sale if you know where to look. They don't even cost very much. Brigading attacks by flagging content in bad faith are also very common for political and ideological reasons.
Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by joshuamorton on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:00PM (#29488856)
>Aged Twitter accounts with thousands of followers are available for sale

Yes, this is mostly irrelevant to what we were discussing though (and goes to the "change in behavior" thing I mentioned, which while more challenging, is still often detectable).

> Brigading attacks by flagging content in bad faith are also very common for political and ideological reasons.

Yes, but this is distinct from trying to frame someone for purchasing/using bot follows, and so is mostly irrelevant to what we were discussing. I agree that this is a challenging problem to solve, it's just not the one that was mentioned.

I'll reiterate:

There are challenging problems in abuse detection. Someone abusively using fake accounts to frame a legitimate user else for using fake accounts isn't a particularly challenging (or relevant) one.

Re:Twitter suspends account tracking Maxwell trial by logicalmonster on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:14PM (#29489022)
a) There's a difference between addressing a problem and solving it: and I'd say that you're doing the former and not the latter. Your general algorithmic approach is likely to block some problems of course. However, it also creates the door for numerous false positives, especially for a platform like Twitter where an account devoted to noteworthy news or viral content can go from account creation to tens or hundreds of thousands of followers in days or weeks.

b) For your page rank analysis, how do you a priori decide who is a bot or not? Oh I know, you can look at a bunch of data like posting frequency, location, keywords, links posted, and other things, and try and create some clever formula to decide the likelihood that some account is a bot. But at the end of the day, even the best possible approach is going to miss bots created by even half-way clever people, and wrongly screw some innocent people over.

c) What about transparency? How can the public trust any of Twitter's claims that bots did X, therefore we had to ban account Y? Where's the proof? Given that bots on Twitter are endemic, this accusation would always be technically true, to some extent.

d) The amount of money and effort thrown around to influence social media is staggering. Even if you can't program, even an average person can buy tens of thousands of followers for what amounts to pocket change. The crazy Twitter activists who spend 18 hours a day on Twitter wouldn't be willing to spend what amounts to a few days worth of minimum wage work to try and take out some arch-nemesis? A shady political activist who wants to influence politics or hide some damaging info and has access to millions of funding isn't able to arrange this? A nation state who wants to put their thumb on the scale of American public opinion can't spend the tiniest bit of pocket change for a concerted effort to move the scale of public opinion?

e) I don't want to be insulting, but your stated approach and mentality here is exactly why Big Tech algorithms screw over so many innocent people.