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Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by chadash on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:37AM (#29391920)
LinkedIn yes, Indeed no. Almost all recruiters (internal and external) are active on LinkedIn. It definitely doesn't hurt to have a good profile... people will reach out to you.

Recruiters get a lot of scorn, but I've had good experiences with them as long as you understand their incentives. They usually get some percentage of your starting salary, so let's say they make 15k if your offer is 100k (making up these numbers, but probably in the ballpark. Also, they only get paid if you stick around for at least a few months). If your offer is for 120k, they might make 3k more, so they have some incentive to get you a higher salary, but really, their incentive is to close as many deals as possible. Better to close two deals for 15k each then to drag out one deal for 18k.

As long as you understand that their incentives are somewhat aligned with yours but not completely, you might have a good experience with recruiters. I've found some who are great and many others who suck. But the good ones will get you in the door with the right people and guide you through the interview process.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by mouzogu on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:41AM (#29391936)
I would say they mostly suck. Very slimy, unwilling to divulge basic information and will ghost you in a heartbeat.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by Nextgrid on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:58AM (#29392115)
From my experience there are 2 kinds of recruiters.

Those most likely operating out of the same boiler rooms as tech support scammers who have pitch terrible roles and employ a spray & pray approach where it's just a spam campaign with very little effort on their side. Those are a waste of time, the roles are terrible and are pretty much never matched to your profile, and when you go through anyway the recruiter will not provide any value (I had one insist on me writing a short resume of my profile... I mean you have my resume in front of you, why don't you do it?).

The rest which are typically alright. Again, quality varies, but I haven't had any outright "bad" experiences with any of this category. On the top-end of this category are those that understand the industry very well and what you're looking for and will only pitch you the right roles at the right time. The right recruiters can essentially be your sales team and are absolutely worth having on your side.

I suspect most people's interactions here would be exclusively those from the first category as they're the ones that typically send unsolicited spam. The second category will typically show much more restraint in reaching out out of the blue, so unless you explicitly seek them out you may not even be aware they exist.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by Taylor_OD on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @10:42AM (#29393325)
The real two types of recruiters are experienced and inexperienced. Most recruiters have not made a successful placement. It's a sales job and many recruiting firms hire entry level. These are also the recruiters who send the most inmail spam because their "training" is learning on the job. The chances of interacting with a junior third party recruiter is very high.

A very small percentage of third party recruiters stay third party once they have a year or two of experience. If they are any good but don't love sales they go internal (recruiter for an actual company - less pay but far far less stress).

A tiny percentage of recruiters stay as third party recruiters and are actually good. They often built networks from their early inmail spam days when they did get lucky and place someone so they don't send as many inmails now.

You are almost always dealing with near entry level third party recruiters who are learning on the job. That is in large part why dealing with recruiters on average sucks.

This is never going to change but if you are looking for a new job or you are interested in a role a recruiter reaches out to you about you can absolutely ask to speak to a lead or a manager of their team instead of them.

"Hey I know the third party recruiting industry is tough. I am very interested in this position. Do you have a lead or a manager who I can speak with to learn more about this position and how to prepare for the interview?" That is how you get to the person who actually knows what they are doing. The immediate recruiter might make a stink but their manager likely wont. If you are actually a good fit for the job your chances of landing there do go up if they spend time to speak with you and help you prepare. They only get paid if you actually start there.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by rurp on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @10:55AM (#29393482)
Can you share a bit about how to find the second type of recruiter? I've gotten a sense of the dynamic you're describing but have no real idea of how to find good recruiters. As you say, pretty much all of the inbound messages I get are very spammy.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by Nextgrid on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @11:25AM (#29393848)
That's a very good question I don't think I have a straightforward answer to. I built my network over time by using LinkedIn suggestions - the more recruiters you connect with the more it will recommend, and now I occasionally get new connection requests from recruiters which I approve if they're relevant to my industry/skills and aren't from the first category.

I guess I would just throw a few names out there and let you build from there. Disclaimer: I haven't worked with them enough to say they are truly exceptional, but at least they're not from the first category and actually have decent roles:

* La Fosse Associates

* Opus Recruitment Solutions

* Austin Fraser

* Gathered and Found (never heard of this one but got recommended it by someone just now)

Connect with a few people from each, have a few calls and go from there.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by Serverless_joe on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @01:13PM (#29395409)
Former 3rd party recruiter here, I loved meeting with candidates and hearing about what matters most to them before "pitching" them any opportunities. A good recruiter should learn more about who you are and your career goals before making any suggestions. I would say that is a good benchmark of a recruiter who cares and is not going to try and put a square peg in a round hole, so to speak...

*While I have met some downright bad recruiters in my time, I have also met some really great ones, so if anyone wants a connection to one LMK!

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday December 01, 2021 @01:08PM (#29407038)
Echoes my comment above. The guys I met from Aerotech took their time over a long lunch meeting to get to know me and what I valued in a company and where I wanted my career to go before looking for opportunities.

That said, I feel that recruiters work harder the farther along you are in your career. They make more as a percentage and they realized that experienced candidates likely have a larger network and will send them more referrals. It's a sales business, they're not stupid.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by Serverless_joe on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @12:51PM (#29475808)
100%! Look for recruiters with longer tenure, bad sales people don't stick around...
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday December 01, 2021 @01:05PM (#29407011)
I'll add Aerotech to that list. They were friendly, took the time to get to know me, including taking me to lunch at a pretty nice place. And really worked to focus on the type of work I wanted to do. Would definitely engage again.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @02:42PM (#29396510)
Look at who was in charge of recruiting at the VC backed companies your friends joined.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by digitalsushi on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:52AM (#29392064)
And if your cell phone ends up in their list, woo-ee they will call you at 11pm on a Sunday if it means you're more likely to pick up. It would have panicked me to get a call at 11pm at one point in my life, but thanks to recruiters I just never answer the phone at all. Voicemail is my butler.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by mouzogu on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:57AM (#29508513)
I once had a recruiter call my companies reception, tell them he was my friend and have the call forwarded to my desk phone. Talk about shameless :D
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by evilbob93 on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @02:36PM (#29396446)
In the US, there are laws against calling after 9:00. And like you, I don't answer calls from unknown numbers any more, whether or not my phone identifies it as likely scam.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by philwelch on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @01:00PM (#29395246)
I get so many phone scams that I’ve set my phone to ignore all calls from unidentified contacts.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by crisper78 on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:50AM (#29392050)
I would say they don't mostly suck, everyone of them who I have worked with has opened up doors that wouldn't be open otherwise. Made my salary go way up too!

Thanks recruiters you are mostly awesome!

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by donkeyd on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @09:48AM (#29392675)
I agree that they mostly suck. The sucky ones are just very easy to filter. So you either engage them because they have a specific role at a specific company you would like to work for... Or you ignore them.

If they work for a (recruitment) company, I'll look at vacancies on their web site. If I don't like them, I'll either tell them why (if I feel like they may be of use later), give them an annoyed reply (if they annoyed me) or ignore them.

Sometimes, I literally tell them to either give me more info up front, because I can't keep having phone calls just so you can tell me you have 10 vacancies that I might be a good fit. I'd be on the phone talking about Java jobs all day long (I don't have any Java experience). If they don't send me more info, that's fine. If they do, I'll give them some feedback and possibly schedule a call if I like it.

In short, this means I ignore most recruiters and the ones I've spoken to have mostly been pretty pleasant.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by alkonaut on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @10:51AM (#29393453)
Add a code word or number to your profile like "If you are a recruiter and want to contact me about a position, please put this number in the email subject to confirm you saw this text and isn't a bot".

99% of the time a "recruiter" contacts me, it's a sweatshop spam recruiter who invariably says "Your profile looks interesting" and of course, has not seen the profile.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by giantg2 on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @01:48PM (#29395843)
From the hiring side, I've seen some help the candidate cheat the interview.

In my experience on both ends, they don't care about good fit nor qualifications. It's a numbers game - throw almost any candidate at a position to hope it gets filled, or contact as many devs as possible to make them a client.

Recruiters that are actually part of the company tend to be better in my experience. I won't even talk to 3rd party recruiters.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by whateveracct on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:47PM (#29399716)
Good recruiting/hiringstaff tends to be a decent signal for a good company in my experience.

When the recruiters treated me well, so did the company. When the recruiters or HR treat me poorly (e.g. after the offer was signed, the nature of my remote work & travel was trifled over with little guilt trips), the company inevitably ended up being what was being reflected.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by waylandsmithers on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @11:06AM (#29393627)
I think recruiters are great, as long as they actually work at the company they are hiring for. My policy has always been to respond to their linkedin messages saying thanks for reaching out but i'm not interested right now. One of those ended up becoming my current job.

The outside recruiters, "I have a client in XYZ industry with 100M in funding!" type where they don't even tell you the name of the company, you should just ignore.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by wantsanagent on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @09:19AM (#29392340)
FWIW internal and external recruiters can have very different incentive structures. What you describe is typical for external (independent) recruiters, but our internal recruiting staff are salaried and don't operate on commission/bonus.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by HeyLaughingBoy on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @10:57AM (#29393513)
I second this. I switched jobs a few months ago after a recruiter reached out to me based on a crappy LinkedIn profile that hadn't been updated in at least 6 years.

I get a fair amount of interest from recruiters and I don't consider it spam: they're doing their jobs and it might benefit me at some point. It's easy enough to decline someone's invitation if you don't want to connect with them.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by bluedino on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @10:09AM (#29392924)
> but really, their incentive is to close as many deals as possible. Better to close two deals for 15k each then to drag out one deal for 18k.

Similar to how a Realtor doesn't really care to get you the highest offer for your house, or lowest price on the one you're buying.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by DrNuke on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @11:54AM (#29394240)
> I've found some who are great and many others who suck.

Seconding this, and LinkedIn being more viable than Indeed. Serious recruiters, at the very least, have a clear incentive to find suitable candidates. On the contrary, though, so many offers coming directly from employers are just used to test waters: therefore, you need to send them a direct e-mail to stand out from the pile of applications.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by orangepanda on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:56AM (#29392098)
> They usually get some percentage of your starting salary

Why they get a percentage instead of a flat per-head fee? Its not in companies' best interest to agree to a percentage, and recruiters have no leverage to push it.

Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by nhumrich on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @09:58AM (#29392783)
I knew of a company that did a per head price. The problem is the higher the salary, the harder the role is to fill. They ended up going the percentage route eventually. I am sure there is a better price structure, but flat percent (20) seems to be the standard pricing these days.
Re:Ask HN: Are Indeed, LinkedIn the go-to places for explori... by Lucasoato on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @09:16AM (#29392296)
Finding a Senior Dev is much harder than finding a Junior one, so maybe they charge a percentage for simplicity because the former simply has an higher salary and it would be too complex to charge different flat fees depending on the position category.