News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by fredophile on Friday November 26, 2021 @02:51PM (#29353457)
"The internet routes around failure" hasn't been true for a long time. It refers to the original topography which has been replaced with a hub and spoke model. Remove a few hubs and you have disabled a large portion of the internet.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by toast0 on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:38PM (#29353849)
Back in the 90s when I got on, so much of traffic was exchanged at MAE-West or MAE-East, and a backhoe in Iowa could make nearly all the cross-US traffic go through Europe and Asia instead.

These days, there are lively public internet exchanges up and down both coasts, in texas and chicago and elsewhere. A well placed backhoe can still make a big mess, many 'redundant fibers' are in the same strand, and last mile is fragile, but if my ISP network is up to the local internet exchange, there are many distinct routes to the other coast and a fiber cut is unlikely to route my traffic around the world.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by fragmede on Friday November 26, 2021 @08:08PM (#29356111)
I wonder if I can nerdsnipe anyone into figuring out the fewest BGP hijacks it would take to force traffic on the Internet from the West Coast of the US to take the long way around to the East Coast of the US. Never mind the latency, that pipe isn't big enough for all of that traffic, so it'll effectively be a netsplit.

I bet it's a lower number than anyone's actually comfortable with, though it would be rather difficult to pull of.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by betterunix2 on Friday November 26, 2021 @10:14PM (#29357015)
I doubt that you could force all such traffic to be so routed, given that there are coast-to-coast transit networks that would not be affected by a BGP hijack (IGP routes are often preferred to EGP routes). In all likelihood the situation would not last very long as network operators would quickly respond to the anomalous traffic pattern and deploy various route filters to correct the problem.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by toast0 on Saturday November 27, 2021 @12:45PM (#29361905)
> Never mind the latency, that pipe isn't big enough for all of that traffic, so it'll effectively be a netsplit.

We've seen this one before... BGP doesn't (usually) look at link utilization, just link status and maybe that the BGP connection doesn't time out, but even a massively overloaded connection tends to have room for BGP pings, so it's less netsplit and more blackhole.

I don't think BGP hijacks is really the way to acheive this one.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by kingcharles on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:22PM (#29354826)
God, this would happen all the time in the mid-90s. You joke about a backhoe in Iowa, but I'm pretty certain it was a backhoe in Iowa one time. Then the whole of the UK's traffic to the USA West Coast would be routed through an ISDN connection in Korea for three days. Your goat porn downloads from Usenet would drop from their high of 0.5Kb/sec and you'd be left with your dick in your hand. Or something.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by h2odragon on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:42PM (#29355009)
Kids today will never know how we suffered in the Before Times
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by FredPret on Friday November 26, 2021 @08:35PM (#29356303)
boobs.jpg loading one line at a time and then greying out completely before reaching the bottom
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by tacocataco on Friday November 26, 2021 @09:50PM (#29356831)
Good thing I'm into legs... They loaded first.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by p_l on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @08:12AM (#29391705)
only if it was BMP
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by dkubb on Friday November 26, 2021 @09:05PM (#29356547)
This is where you'd choose the .gif version hoping it was interlaced.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by xwolfi on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:50PM (#29355083)
Ofc they will, people are recording the history of porn downlo... err the internet just as diligently as Napoleon conquests !
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by ezconnect on Saturday November 27, 2021 @07:53AM (#29359787)
They will never experience buying bootleg disk for gif porn.

edit: disk is for diskette

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by pepoluan on Saturday November 27, 2021 @05:05AM (#29359021)
This is why I always pre-download pr0n well-ahead of jack0ff time.

Call it BBP Protocol... "Blue Ball Prevention"

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by xattt on Friday November 26, 2021 @06:27PM (#29355374)
This happened with regular phone service as recent as 2017 in Canada (1).

(1) https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/mobile/many-atlantic-canadians-l...

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by smoldesu on Friday November 26, 2021 @06:16PM (#29355299)
This is still an issue AFAIK, a disproportionate chunk of internet traffic goes through AWS-East...
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by throw0101a on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:40PM (#29354424)
> Remove a few hubs and you have disabled a large portion of the internet.

"A few hubs"? Just Hurricane Electric has presence in many, many IXPs, and they're not even the largest transit provider:

* https://bgp.he.net/AS6939#_ix

AT&T, the largest transit provider, has a ridiculous number of peers:

* https://bgp.he.net/AS7018#_peers

And there are several different major global providers:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network

A lot of the Big Tech companies are also building their own private fibre networks so they don't even have to worry about sharing infrastructure with the telcos:

* https://www.submarinecablemap.com

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by topdancing on Friday November 26, 2021 @06:23PM (#29355345)
Knock out this set of buildings in London, and you can kiss the entirety of the UK offline/most of Europe won't recover: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telehouse_Europe
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by inopinatus on Friday November 26, 2021 @10:36PM (#29357143)
It took exactly one (1) spanning tree misconfiguration on a single BlackDiamond to cripple LINX for hours, a couple of decades ago.

Source: I was sitting next to the person who fixed it.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by User23 on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:10PM (#29354719)
You’re wrong. If say One Wilshire[1] or one of the very few other carrier hotels in its class abruptly ceased existing the Internet would be wrecked and rebuilding would be a matter of months at the very best. It doesn’t matter how many peers a big telco has when the supermajority of backbone peerings are in a handful of buildings.

[1] https://one-wilshire.com/

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by mprovost on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:55PM (#29355115)
I used to have a security badge to get in there back in 2003 or so. When I was shown around someone said they could cause a minor recession in 5 minutes with an axe. Also they had me grab a fibre that carried all of Japan’s internet traffic. If you pulled that it would route everything the other way around the world through Europe and the east coast.

I had a long lost picture when they were doing some street construction outside and marked all the buried cables with spray paint. Lines going everywhere…

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by throw0101a on Friday November 26, 2021 @06:27PM (#29355375)
First off, I'm on the east coast-ish, so I'm not sure how much traffic I get from APAC.

Next off, the their front page says:

> Carrier-Neutral with Access to 200+ Carriers

You're telling me these 200+ carriers have no other POPs?

Going to their "Connectivity" page, they show four trans-Pacific cable that land there:

* https://one-wilshire.com/connectivity/

Meanwhile there are a whole bunch of other trans-Pacific cables landing on the US West Coast:

* https://www.submarinecablemap.com

As someone who lives in Toronto, I certainly worry about how concentrated TORIX is, but even it has three physical locations (IIRC), and most folks connect elsewhere as well from the spelunking I've done in BGP.

So if one of these major carrier hotels does have a problem, I don't doubt that there would be repercussions, but I'm not worried about "the Internet" as a whole.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by betterunix2 on Friday November 26, 2021 @09:56PM (#29356882)
...maybe. Pretty sure the "wreck" would be local to the region around LA, and maybe a few of the countries on the other end of those lines. The immediate effect of an unexpected outage (e.g. the physical destruction of the building) would probably be a lot of rerouted traffic overwhelming systems "nearby" (in the topology of the Internet) for a few hours. It would not take months to recover even in the absolute worst case.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by ikiris on Saturday November 27, 2021 @12:36AM (#29357778)
As a network person who's worked at multiple major global transit networks: lol no.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by kingcharles on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:24PM (#29354849)
That building gives me anxiety attacks; just thinking about how vulnerable it is.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by shallichange on Friday November 26, 2021 @07:40PM (#29355926)
Not the whole internet, but a whole country for sure: google "Las Toninas" a beachside town in Argentina. Someone over there frequently steps over the wire and good bye rest of the world
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by unethical_ban on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:42PM (#29354452)
I didn't RTFM but I could see the argument that the SPOFs of the Internet are AWS, Cloudflare and Google, not the cables and routers in an IXP.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by xwolfi on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:55PM (#29355120)
You alread listed 3 single points of failure. I get what you mean: the entry point search engine, the global cache and the global backend/storage/compute.

But look I live in Hong Kong, I dont feel that way: there are other backends, we could survive without the caching for a while and Google is forbidden for 1.4bn people who get on with it very well...

Depends what you call the internet. Yes, facebook and whatsapp are gone the minute one of those 3 companies screwed up.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by rdp36 on Friday November 26, 2021 @08:41PM (#29356351)
OK, you think 1.4 billion people without the freedom to search is ok? LOL.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by genewitch on Saturday November 27, 2021 @02:00AM (#29358187)
I wouldn't say Google is search, per se. I haven't used Google for search in a few years.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by tatersolid on Saturday November 27, 2021 @07:12AM (#29359577)
If Google search went away for more than 24 hours, Bing/DDG/others would quickly get overwhelmed as people learned about alternatives and switched.

Bing might be able to auto-scale using Azure infrastructure but there might not be enough hardware even there.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by betterunix2 on Friday November 26, 2021 @09:44PM (#29356790)
WWW != Internet

Yes, for the majority of users the two may be the same, but "The Internet" is the IPv4 and IPv6 network on which the web runs. The equivalent companies to what you named are the transit network operators, companies like Hurricane Electric, AT&T, CenturyLink, etc. The list of transit networks is very long, much longer than the list of major web hosting companies.

Now, that said, it is absolutely true that there are ways where major outages can be the result of just one failure. Last year there was a major outage on the US east cost after a Verizon fiber optic line was severed in NYC; it turns out that this line carried many supposedly redundant links, all bundled into a single cable. The failure of that line then caused a cascade of failures as rerouted traffic began overwhelming other systems, but in the end the outage was contained in a relatively small geographic region, albeit one with many Internet users.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by throw0101a on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:51PM (#29354525)
The article is about BGP and Internet Routing Registry (IRR): routing.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by inopinatus on Friday November 26, 2021 @10:33PM (#29357118)
Those are not single points.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by peoplefromibiza on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:55PM (#29354025)
back in the 90s all the Internet traffic in Italy was routed around two big hubs, hosted in two public universities (it was mainly one, in Rome).

Internet is much more reliable now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GARR

I studied CS in Rome at "La Sapienza" and I was merely 10 steps away from INFN (national institute for nuclear physics) where GARR phisically resided.

I spent more time there than in my class.

That's how I got involved in this new "internet thing".

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by tialaramex on Friday November 26, 2021 @07:53PM (#29355992)
Bob Metcalfe repeatedly predicted a "gigalapse" which he defined as a loss of one billion hours of Internet connectivity. Bob would say look at how fragile this all is, and his point wasn't (although at the time it would too often be portrayed this way) "the Internet will fail" because Bob isn't actually an idiot, but it also shows a substantial lack of foresight anyway. Of course ~everybody will have the Network, the Internet is the Network, and so then normal sleep is an order of magnitude worse than a "gigalapse" yet happens every day and we don't even care.

The "gigalapse" seemed like a big deal because proportionally a billion user hours in 1995 is everything doesn't work for days, or most things don't work for several weeks... but today of course it could also be everybody in the world is inconvenienced for about long enough to make breakfast. Oh no.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by fragmede on Friday November 26, 2021 @08:15PM (#29356154)
If a Gigalapse is about 12 minutes these days (given 4.66 billion people on the Internet), a Teralapse would be about 9 days of no Internet for all of us.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by redisman on Saturday November 27, 2021 @02:21AM (#29358273)
What a fascinating experiment that would be. I’d imagine the majority of people would have no idea what to do without the internet for days. Does my remote job e been exist? It would be surreal
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by Iv on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:19PM (#29354226)
Disabled? Throttled down the speed by half? Yes. But to disconnect whole regions, you have to do conscious sabotage and even Mubarak did not manage to switch off Egypt when he wanted to and gave orders to.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by ip26 on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:36PM (#29353827)
If by “remove a few hubs” you mean level a few major colo’s then ok, but as far as I can tell there is not any single strand of glass or single switch or single server that can take everything down with it.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by dylan604 on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:14PM (#29354176)
You don't need to level the colos, you just need someone to make a typo in a router config that gets deployed live so the whole colo is unreachable. How many times have we seen an AWS/CloudFlare/otherLargeProvider have this happen to them?
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by toast0 on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:43PM (#29353902)
The DNS root is pretty well distributed. There's 13 different IPs run by several different organizations, and AFAIK they're all running anycast these days. And anyway, the root zone is tiny, changes infrequently and could really be AXFRed a couple times a month and you wouldn't miss much.

The larger tlds aren't quite as diversely hosted and certainly aren't amenable to long term caching, but it should take a major f up to break those too.

Some of the minor tlds, even the more popular ones do screw up from time to time though.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by throw0101a on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:53PM (#29354552)
> As of 11/26/2021 10:53 p.m., the root server system consists of 1477 instances operated by the 12 independent root server operators.

* https://root-servers.org

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_name_server

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by Ekaros on Friday November 26, 2021 @06:22PM (#29355337)
And hub here could refer to entity like Level3... One day, no more money. Just turn of the power on everything and start liquidating... Or someone isn't there anymore to fix stuff when it breaks or changes are needed...
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by paxys on Friday November 26, 2021 @02:58PM (#29353532)
What original topology are you talking about? There was never a time when your end consumer device could be used as even a semi-reliable web server.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by Teever on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:23PM (#29353724)
> There was never a time when your end consumer device could be used as even a semi-reliable web server.

I dunno man, My used T420 laptop is serving several sites over a residential symmetrical fiber connection just fine.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by amatecha on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:30PM (#29353783)
My first self-hosted web server was running on a 486 and ran for a few years hosting four or so sites, including a php-based forum!
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by rvense on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:37PM (#29354967)
Built-in UPS and KVM, too. Keep it cool and stock up on PSUs and that'll last you a long time.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by cgriswald on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:29PM (#29353771)
> There was never a time when your end consumer device could be used as even a semi-reliable web server.

Since about 1999 I have never NOT been running a server of some kind off my home connection. I wouldn't run a business off of it that way, but it's reliable enough to count on it which has to meet any sane definition of semi-reliable. The two biggest problems I've had have been essentially unrelated to the internet. The first is when I've been violating TOS of the ISP or the power was unreliable in the place I lived.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by h2odragon on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:24PM (#29353737)
https://thecrow.uk/A-Gov.uk-site-dedicated-to-porn-Absolutel...

From yesterday. Note the bit about being on a Pi. Stood up quite admirably to an HN hug.

From 1998 to 2004 I served a fairly large amount of traffic out of my homebuilt pentium in a trailer out in the woods with an ISDN line. We stood up to several media mentions OK.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by denton-scratch on Saturday November 27, 2021 @01:35AM (#29358071)
> Stood up quite admirably to an HN hug.

It was down when I tried it yesterday.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by fiddlerwoaroof on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:04PM (#29353581)
If you have a cable connection today, you can serve reliably just fine. Throughput isn’t the best and there are other minor issues, but it’s reliable enough for most people’s purposes.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by lotsofpulp on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:04PM (#29354110)
Coaxial cable connections in the US have such meager upload bandwidth that cable ISPs do not even bother advertising or specifying a minimum upload bandwidth.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by fiddlerwoaroof on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:17PM (#29354210)
Yeah, but I’ve been able to stream music from my desktop to my phone while driving and run a web server with reasonable performance on one.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by lotsofpulp on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:50PM (#29354517)
I consider multiple HD video streams to be reasonable performance. I have a family of 4 to 6 which at any point in time may be FaceTiming, video calling for work, video gaming, backing up to iCloud, streaming HD video from home NAS, and 5+ security cameras uploading.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by doubled112 on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:29PM (#29354308)
It's more than adequate for personal use. I've also been serving myself and a few friends for years.

Download being 300Mpbs but upload 20Mbps IS kind of irritating though.

When did 100Mbps become popular for home LANs even?

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by ScaleneTriangle on Friday November 26, 2021 @05:08PM (#29354694)
Here in Canada all the modem/router combo units from large providers are gigabit for LAN. In pretty sure that it's been that way for at least 5 years.

I'm pretty sure new PCs and laptops have had gigabit standard for probably about 10 years.

Enthusiast and prosumer motherboards are now coming with 2.5 gigabit networking.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by lotsofpulp on Friday November 26, 2021 @04:58PM (#29354603)
Covid lockdowns helped with video calls, but ever since FaceTime came out, lack of upload became way more noticeable

Also, smartphone proliferation made streaming from home NAS very convenient, as well as home security cameras and smart home features.

I disagree that current upload capacities are adequate. With 1Gbps+ upload connections standard, we might actually see privacy forward solutions that do not require us to depend on cloud services.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by rabbits77 on Friday November 26, 2021 @09:36PM (#29356744)
I worked at a small ISP/web host in the late 90s. A very common web server at the time was a cheap white box PC running Windows NT and IIS. We had many of these systems on this interesting “rack” that was more like a multi level table or three d chess board.

These systems could handle a ton of traffic very reliably. Consider that there was very little dynamic content and what there was barely taxed the CPU at all (e.g. a Perl CGI script to query and display some tiny amount of data from (LOL!) an Access database.

Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by justinjlynn on Saturday November 27, 2021 @01:32AM (#29358049)
If it works well and works reliably, even when it needs to be changed quickly - it's not a bad solution, unless it costs too much.
Re:The internet is held together with spit and baling wire by fabianhjr on Friday November 26, 2021 @03:23PM (#29353725)
More P2P between research centers on the time of ARPANet; though it wasn't widely used or available back then.