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Re:Crypto Wash Trading by rossdavidh on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:46AM (#29279180)
Can somebody explain to a crypto-naif what "wash trading" means here?
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by dragontamer on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:59AM (#29279331)
When you trade a any security to yourself (or someone closely related to you) to give the illusion of the price going up. (EDIT: Well... it could be for any reason. But illusion of price going up is one such application of the strategy).

Lets say you invent a new NFT. You sell the NFT to __yourself__ for $100. Then, you sell the NFT to yourself (again) for $200. Finally, you sell the NFT to yourself for $1000. Then you go to the public and say "Look, my NFT has grown 1000% in the past week, you should get in on it!!"

Then they buy the NFT from you for $500. Then suddenly they can't sell the NFT to anyone, because you were the only one buying ever.

Congrats, you just scammed someone for $500.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by brianwawok on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:06PM (#29279454)
You do NOT need to change the prices for it to be a wash trade.

What you gave me a profitable and likely illegal example of a wash trade, but not a definition of wash trade.

A wash trade could be selling thing X for $100 and buying thing Y for $100 where X and Y are the same exact underlying thing. Just moving pointless trades back and forth inflates volumes, which makes people thing the market is moving.

See https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/washtrading.asp for more

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by dragontamer on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:21PM (#29279679)
> You do NOT need to change the prices for it to be a wash trade.

No you don't. But you do need to be buying and selling the underlying repeatedly for "some reason".

That "some reason" could be fraud, or it could just be tax-optimization. The important thing is, "wash trading" is the technique of buying-and-selling the same thing at nearly the same time... which has many many applications.

Many of those applications are illegal and fraudulent in a traditional market. So seeing something like 70% of the volume of the real world cryptomarket being wash trading suggests that there's more fraud in the cryptomarket than people generally realize.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by chollida1 on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:17PM (#29280429)
Wash trading doesn't change the price, it just increase volume, hence the term wash, there is no price change to the owner.

Selling your own NFT to your self for a profit, that's something else, but its not a wash trade as in that case there is a price change.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by thebean11 on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:33PM (#29279836)
My guess is honestly just exchanges trying to get closer to the top of sites like coinmarketcap..
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by dragontamer on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:36PM (#29279882)
I mean, its win/win for the exchanges though?

Lets say rich person X wants to conduct large-scale wash-trades to artificially increase (or decrease) the price of [insert cryptocoin here].

By conducting it on Exchange-Foobar, Foobar's traffic goes up, while rich person X gets the price change they want. Win-win for both parties.

EDIT: Remember: exchanges win on volume. They want more trades, they don't care if the value goes up or down.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by thebean11 on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:47PM (#29280033)
Yes if it's a third party doing it, it's especially a win-win for the exchange as they are getting paid fees on all that transaction volume.

I kind if assumed it was the exchanges themselves faking it. Wash trading without colluding with the exchange is pretty expensive.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by dragontamer on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:07PM (#29280300)
All exchanges, even legitimate ones, offer discount packages on anyone who has high volume.

Ex: Interactive Brokers (a legitimate online exchange for stocks) hit it big with its monthly-subscription model: $$subscription / month $20 / for severely discounted trades (fractions of a penny per trade). https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=1590&p=sto...

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by thebean11 on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:44PM (#29280738)
Yeah, I get it, but unlike stock transactions crypto exchanges generally take a % of volume traded unlike stock exchanges which take a per-transaction fee instead (I think options might be an exception where there's a per-contract fee..not sure).
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by dragontamer on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:48PM (#29280772)
If you're about to dump $10,000 to $100,000 worth of fees upon an exchange per month so that you can perform price manipulation (or whatever), you give the exchange a call.

They'll answer. You explain to them that you want to give them $50,000 / month (or something) for 10-million trades/month or whatever.

If they let you, you do it. If they don't, call up another exchange and give them the same offer.

-------

Its called business. When the $$$ amounts go up beyond a certain amount, you make it worth their while to treat you specially. They want the volume, you want the trades. Old-school business, just talk with them and things happen.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by ishjoh on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:01PM (#29280223)
This is exactly right, in fact if you think about tax breaks on losses it can actually make a lot of sense to sell yourself the same asset at a loss. In the case of crypto you probably wouldn't sell an NFT at a loss, but a coin would definitely make sense to sell to yourself at a loss.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by vineyardmike on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:32PM (#29280596)
IANAL I don’t think thing that’s how taxes works.

If you sell yourself the security, it never left your hand so you didn’t realize a loss.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by brianwawok on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:49PM (#29282273)
I think he is trying to describe tax loss harvesting

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxgainlossharvesting.a...

What robo advisors can do.. is sell say.. asset A that perfectly tracks an asset (say S&P 500)... and then buy asset B that perfectly tracks an asset (say S&P 500).

So you end up with the "same thing" at the end of the day, but got to harvest some losses.

That said, I think there are some iffy legal situations here, and you run the risk of breaking the law here.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/robo-tax-loss-harvestin...

https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/automated-tax-loss-harves...

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by vineyardmike on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:03PM (#29282461)
TLH is real, but "sell yourself the same asset at a loss" sounds fishy to me.

Because with TLH its not "the same asset" in that its not (a) the literal same item moved from one hand to the other. (b) its not the same item ticker (basically a day trade across accounts) (c) Its not buying/selling with yourself

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by dqpb on Friday November 19, 2021 @02:13PM (#29281040)
Transferring money/assets between your accounts is a pretty normal thing to do…
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by aeternum on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:05PM (#29279432)
Yes this works with NFTs but does not work with fungible money because there are typically thousands of people willing to sell once the price goes from 100 to 200.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by spoonjim on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:08PM (#29279488)
That’s why the nonfungibility of fine art is essential to its role in tax evasion.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by cwkoss on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:32PM (#29280601)
You cant manipulate price via wash trading on fungible commodities with deep order books, only volume.

Your example only works for NFTs because they are non-fungible.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by hirvi74 on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:30PM (#29280576)
Just to clarify, wash-trading has nothing to do with wash-sales, right?
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by AutumnCurtain on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:55AM (#29279292)
A "wash trade" is a trade which generates no value because it represents a swap in kind. For example, if I sell a broad market ETF like VTI and buy a nearly identical asset at the same price from a different firm, that could be a "wash trade" for tax purposes (simplifying this, but this is basically the gist). In the context of crypto transactions, it's typically referring to trades which are just shifting the same assets through a cycle of accounts without representing meaningful transactions. For a crypto real world example, see: https://mobile.twitter.com/MarcusFongNFT/status/145391172161...
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by loeg on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:15PM (#29279585)
> For example, if I sell a broad market ETF like VTI and buy a nearly identical asset at the same price from a different firm, that could be a "wash trade" for tax purposes (simplifying this, but this is basically the gist).

No, you’re describing the wash sale rule, which has to do with which capital losses are tax deductible. It covers pairs of trades up to 30 days apart.

A wash trade is a trade with yourself. Both participants in the same trade — not two distinct trades.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/washtrading.asp

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by __alexs on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:07PM (#29279468)
I was confused what "dss-flash" was so I looked it up.

It's a DAO that enables you to mint infinite DAI (some crappy "stablecoin") for a transaction as long as you pay it back in the same transaction.

One of the stated goals of this "feature" is

> Exploits requiring a large amount of capital will be found quicker which makes the DeFi space safer overall.

Ah yes, intentionally making your own product less secure and more open to abuse, so you can make it more secure. Good work. This is taking testing in production to a whole new level.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by vineyardmike on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:33PM (#29280609)
Like a bug bounty?
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by __alexs on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:03PM (#29281633)
Like a bug bounty where you give attackers an SSH login.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by flerovium on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:04PM (#29279426)
This is not what the paper means. They mean a trade between two colluding parties to give the appearance of a trade.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by dustingetz on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:59AM (#29279345)
"Painting the tape is an illegal activity that is prohibited by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) because it creates an artificial price. " https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/paintingthetape.asp
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by omellet on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:55AM (#29279286)
It's a way to fraudulently pump the price (or lower the price) of a security. One person with two accounts can keep trading back and forth with themselves, and since crypto exchange know-your-customer measures are trivial or nonexistent, it's very easy to get away with.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by aeternum on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:02PM (#29279386)
There is still an order book so to get the price to rise or fall, the trader would have to buy or sell enough to clear the book.

How does trading back and forth with themselves do anything other than generate fees for the exchange?

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by mcintyre1994 on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:47PM (#29280038)
Does this apply to NFTs though, where you're usually talking about a unique NFT within a collection of a few thousand? If you hold a unique NFT and trade it to yourself for a crazy amount of money just once, then that's what everyone is going to see as the last sale price of that NFT. They're not trading often anyway usually, people would probably be more suspicious if you had hundreds of trades.

Edit: I was mixing this up with another conversation, the parent comment obviously isn't about NFTs. I'll leave this here though because I think wash trading is even more relevant to them.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by loeg on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:18PM (#29279622)
The book is tiny and the exchange is probably the one doing the wash trading.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by jjk166 on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:44PM (#29280735)
Why wouldn't the exchange just lie and say that volume is higher than it actually is?
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by purple_ferret on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:18PM (#29279627)
The more money you have, the lower the fees. No fees for being a Maker.

You can actually pay nothing on FTX. Only a .025 taker fee + 60% discount for holding FTX coin plus a .01 rebate for being a market maker.

Most of wash trading is probably done by connected individuals though. Whole point of being unregulated. Just be friends with CZ or SBF.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by whatshisface on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:04PM (#29279429)
Well, the book can be tiny sometimes.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by scotty79 on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:05PM (#29280277)
It makes bo sense when it comes to any popular cryptocurrency. The only way book can be small for these is on small exchange. But if you attempt to manipylate it to bring in away from current price on large exchanges you'll be immediately interfered with by people doing interexchange arbitrage. Also manipulating small exchange has small impact.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by tiagobraw on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:30PM (#29279803)
also fees can be nonexistent for big customers, which are likely to engage in such things
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by all2 on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:51AM (#29279230)
The abstract:

> We introduce systematic tests exploiting robust statistical and behavioral patterns in trading to detect fake transactions on 29 cryptocurrency exchanges. Regulated exchanges feature patterns consistently observed in financial markets and nature; abnormal first-significant-digit distributions, size rounding, and transaction tail distributions on unregulated exchanges reveal rampant manipulations unlikely driven by strategy or exchange heterogeneity. We quantify the wash trading on each unregulated exchange, which averaged over 70% of the reported volume. We further document how these fabricated volumes (trillions of dollars annually) improve exchange ranking, temporarily distort prices, and relate to exchange characteristics (e.g., age and userbase), market conditions, and regulation.

"wash trading" appears to be fraudulent trades injected into the exchange in order to boost the volume of trades appearing on the exchange.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by avalys on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:53AM (#29279266)
Boost the volume of trades appearing on the exchange, and the apparent market value of the asset.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by shane_b on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:53AM (#29279262)
You’re right. I think wash refers to selling then buying at the same price resulting in a wash.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by loeg on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:21PM (#29279675)
You’re confusing wash trading (trading with yourself) with wash sales (a restricted form of capital loss harvesting), which are more or less unrelated despite having “wash” in the name.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by shane_b on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:54PM (#29283073)
Thank you for the clarification
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by belltaco on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:00PM (#29279356)
A real life example is a store where the owners hire fake shoppers to crowd the store and "buy" items that are later returned to the store and refunded. All to make the shop look busy compared to other shops, in order to attract customers and claim that they have more foot traffic than competing stores.

A wash trade is anything that results in the equivalent outcome as earlier. It was used to get fraudulent tax refunds so it's not allowed to be used that way. An example is buying AAPL at $150 in January, and it falls to $100 in December. One could sell the stock to claim the deduction on the tax return for the year, but would miss out on potential gains on the stock. So what people would do is sell the stock on Dec 31st and buy it back on January 2nd in the new year. So IRS made a rule that doing such a thing is a wash trade and not eligible for tax deductions on the booked loss for the year.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by bonestamp2 on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:29PM (#29279779)
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by winternett on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:27PM (#29279759)
People think that because something is professionally and popularly marketed, and frequently painted as a "hot new trend!" that is profitable that it is a train they need to hop on to.

Crypto and NFT are (relatively) new online havens for many criminals, money launderers, and scammers to hide within in the same ways that AMWAY, Time Share Vacation Sales People, and as the guys selling speakers out of their vans in a parking lot did throughout the past, with a little Bernie Madoff and updated/modified MLM tactics added. Not saying all trading is bad, but millions of people have already been victimized in such a short time, and social media is in on the hustle because they make great profits within the promotional and "pump and dump" food chain.

I decided to invest just $100 in bitcoin (on a reputable exchange) to watch it over time a year ago, and so far it's maybe gone just slightly over double that (with spikes and dips in between)... I could not imagine having risked any more money than that because it's pretty stupid to send cash trough the US mail system even though it's protected by law, and Crypto is largely unregulated, and one tweet from the guy who owns Tesla can bring the system to it's knees within the blink of an eye. You can't cry over imaginary profit you haven't lost, so I'm fine with not developing a new gambling addiction.

It's very telling how hard it is to see a simple detail about profit performance for other coins online (over time), graphs are way too simple, each coin's graph has a different set of rules and context, there are far too many different apps and exchanges, regulation and taxing is uncertain, the methods of creation and management for crypto are really elusive, confusing, and abstract for the purpose of making the process very mysterious. The very creator of bitcoin is still not willing to take proper credit for it FFS... That's all I needed to really know in terms of the system's reliability...

NFTs are basically digital files, often stored in a Google Drive (which cannot be exclusively owned by nature), but they are sold as if it's possible for a file to not be copied, scam cue #2... What I'm really trying to get to as a point is that it's all basically a giant pile of malarkey for normal people who can't afford to lose money right now. I trust the skeptics more than the people who are raving about being millionaires from it on YouTube every day, because you can't tell if diamonds are real by watching a video on the Internet.

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by jdaggers on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:01PM (#29280229)
The creator of Bitcoin is most likely Hal Finney, who died in 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist...
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by realce on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:54AM (#29279279)
You're the buyer and seller in some transaction. You use it to froth the volume of the asset, making it look like it's a vibrant marketplace with lots of buyers and sellers, but really it's just the Dump It guy and you.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by mhandley on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:53AM (#29279254)
From page 2:

One form of such market manipulation is Wash trading--- investors simultaneously selling and buying the same financial assets to create artificial activity in the marketplace, which is known to distort price, volume, and volatility, and reduce investors’ confidence and participation in financial markets (Aggarwal and Wu, 2006; Cumming, Johan, and Li, 2011; Imisiker and Tas, 2018).

Re:Crypto Wash Trading by lfuller on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:54AM (#29279271)
"Selling" crypto from one wallet to another wallet that you own to create the appearance of high trade volume and increase the apparent value of the asset.
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by anonymousDan on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:12PM (#29279539)
But wouldn't this be risky in that obviously you have to pay transaction fees etc?
Re:Crypto Wash Trading by loeg on Friday November 19, 2021 @12:21PM (#29279683)
The exchanges are probably the ones doing it.