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Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by umvi on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:43PM (#29100013)
Any (relatively) unbiased sources that explain how NJ got into this predicament? Just current leadership being out of touch with the wants/needs of NJ citizens?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by rlt on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:04PM (#29100240)
> how NJ got into this predicament?

Possibly due to attitudes like describing an average citizen beating a career politician as “a predicament”

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by FredPret on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:53PM (#29100816)
I know right, we’re watching democracy in action. This is what a really good system looks like
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by moffkalast on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:16PM (#29101118)
It's still a pretty shit system. A good system would have more than 2 people and instant runoff.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by FredPret on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @09:36PM (#29102747)
... so run for election, then there will be 3 people
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by moffkalast on Friday November 05, 2021 @06:26PM (#29125381)
Not from the US, my country already has a multiple party system.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ryandrake on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:08PM (#29101693)
It's not that he's an "average citizen" that's objectionable, it's that, based on quotes posted in other sub-threads and the campaign video that someone posted, he ran on an anti-mask, anti-lockdown, COVID-downplaying platform and won. The question is how did NJ get into this predicament where people with these views are winning elections? I can see this happening in Mississippi or something, but New Jersey?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ludicast on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:31AM (#29103879)
I dont think you realize how unpopular the masks and lockdowns are among people. Especially when it comes to kids being masked.

I believe the platform for the right has consolidated to - ending mask/lockdown/mandate - letting parents have a voice in their children's school agendas - making fun of runaway inflation

This is going to be difficult to run against, in many states besides "Mississippi".

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ryandrake on Thursday November 04, 2021 @12:50PM (#29109506)
Eye opening for sure. I just thought these people were merely "loud but a tiny minority"-- a handful of trolls and professional victims performing for YouTube. All those wacky people ranting at School Board meetings make great Internet entertainment, but surely there weren't significant numbers of them. I guess I need to get out more. Can't believe being against public health has actually become a legit, winnable political platform. All over a little piece of cloth. Unbelievable.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @09:08PM (#29102584)
Because masks and lockdowns go against their interests, and they oppose people like you mandating these policies on them. It's just that simple.

And the numbers of these people is much much larger than you're aware of, likely for reasons of media bias hiding this information from you and geographic diversity of political views and values.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by twofornone on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @10:54PM (#29103217)
>And the numbers of these people is much much larger than you're aware of, likely for reasons of media bias hiding this information from you and geographic diversity of political views and values.

And the chilling effect of socially shaming people as "plague rats" for resisting lockdowns and mandates.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by heavyset_go on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:25PM (#29101849)
South Jersey and suburbs all over the state are just as conservative as places to the south or west of it. The CRT moral panic successfully mobilized a lot of suburban voters to get involved in local politics.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by voldacar on Thursday November 04, 2021 @03:13PM (#29111336)
It's a predicament when someone who has different politics than you gets elected? Are you saying that you've just solved politics then? Should you be our king?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by WhisperingShiba on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:34PM (#29100598)
GOT 'EM.

Real talk, I think there is a certain level of education we should desire for politicians, since generally speaking, it denotes a certain dedication to understanding many facets of society. That said, career politicians are completely bogus all the way through.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by dmz73 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:12PM (#29101058)
I am not form the U.S.

I think the problem is not that average citizen managed to beat the career politician, that is (possibly?) the good part.

In my view the problem is that this average citizen now has to deal with other career politicians and if he doesn't have the experience in these dealings, his constituents will probably end up worse off.

What is the solution?

I don't know, I am an average citizen so I would prefer someone who has more knowledge about these things to work on it and then present options to us average citizens in a clear and unbiased manner.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by gumby on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:35PM (#29100609)
There is a minor way in which this situation can become a predicament. Outsiders who become governors don’t tend to have a network or know how the mechanisms work, so tend to either get nothing done or end up having little input into things being done by those who do know those things.

But having an outsider as a legislative member is generally a good thing.

In California we have term limits, so no member of the legislature (or any other position) can have the time to develop expertise. This gives lobbyists a lot more power.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by travoc on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:46PM (#29100731)
For those who think government has too much power, getting nothing done isn’t as bad as it seems.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by gumby on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:24PM (#29101221)
I kinda like having speed limits, food safety rules, building codes, courts, free vaccines (removing barriers to your vaccination helps me, just as mine helps you) and a bunch of other things governments do.

Having lived in countries both with and without generally well meaning and competent government, in my experience the former is vastly better despite its manifold faults.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by stickyricky on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:50PM (#29100087)
There is an interesting story about Madigan in Chicago. Ran the Illinois machine. Corrupt as all hell. A college student decided to run against him and collected enough signatures to get on the ballot. Madigan typically ran unopposed. Well come to find about, of the 500 people who signed the petition to get this kid on the ballot, 1200 rescinded their support.

You do the math. These people aren't loved. They just know how to work the system to keep the outsiders out. The article says in a district of 150k, the NJ Senate President never received more than 30k votes. 20% of the population was dictating policy. Its no surprise that, when given the choice, people will vote their preference.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by caseysoftware on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:49PM (#29100761)
Grew up near Chicago but long gone before this happened so I looked it up:

> Krupa needed 473 valid signatures of ward residents to get on the ballot. He filed 1,729 signatures with the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners. He earlier said he filed 1,703 but missed a page of signatures.

> A crew of mysterious political workers — perhaps they were Buddhist monks, or the gentle sun people known as the Eloi, or maybe Madigan precinct captains — filed 2,796 petitions of revocation of signature. That means 2,796 ward residents filed legal affidavits that they wanted their signatures taken off Krupa’s petitions.

> The Madigan men filed 187 affidavits of revocation matching Krupa signatures. But Dorf, a progressive who’d done election work for the late Mayor Harold Washington and former President Barack Obama, put in a Freedom of Information Act request asking the board to give him all the revocations affidavits that were filed.

> All 2,796 of them.

> “And that’s where the fraud comes in, that’s where the felonies come in,” Dorf said. “Almost 2,800 affidavits were filed. But only 1,726 people signed petitions for Krupa. And of the 2,800 affidavits, the 13th Ward could only find 187 signatures that matched.

> Subtract 187 from 2,796 and you get 2,609 — that’s a lot of possible felonies, either perjury or voter intimidation.

Ref: https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-met-chic...

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by BuyMyBitcoins on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:59PM (#29100904)
We’ve got some pretty convincing evidence of corruption and election fraud here.

BUT, rest assured this is extremely rare and these same people wouldn’t dare tamper with any other kind of election. Nor would this happen anywhere else in the United States. Anyone who asserts an election was subject to fraud is attacking democracy itself. /s

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ejstronge on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:13PM (#29101074)
> Anyone who asserts an election was subject to fraud is attacking democracy itself. /s

I trust you are referring to problems with the 2020 election? I would appreciate learning what analogies you see between mob-like coercion and the election

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by BuyMyBitcoins on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:26PM (#29101243)
Yes, for the most part. I do not think the doubts and suspicious anomalies are new or unique to the 2020 election, though.

As for the mob-like coercion, I don’t think there was this same kind of intimidation going on in 2020. I was using this concrete example of election fraud to refute the oft-touted assertion that voter fraud is vanishingly rare in the United States, and, it is never serious enough to affect an election.

In a naïve way I hope it opens the door to people being willing to accept the idea that if fraud can happen in big corrupt cities, it can happen elsewhere and we should tighten up our oversight laws.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by adolph on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:08PM (#29102191)
Election irregularities are regular enough that fraud should be a plausible conjecture. Maybe the implicit goal is to limit obvious fraud enough to only make a difference in very close elections when the elect do not receive a big mandate one way or another and to maintain the fiction of votes making a difference.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by adolph on Thursday November 04, 2021 @09:55AM (#29107203)
Followup to "Election irregularities are regular enough that fraud should be a plausible conjecture."

I think increased interest in election integrity after a contested election are great to the extent that high integrity processes are the truth to which society should work towards. Disputes about specific irregularities post-election are less valuable and a generic response could be "well, you should have cheated better."

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by moffkalast on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:24PM (#29101217)
And I assume those 2,609 were then charged and went to prison right? Right?

Ah who am I kidding.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:59PM (#29100192)
People where I live get a ballot and a book in the mail weeks before the election with details for all the candidates and questions, and all you have to do is drop it in the outgoing mail. Takes no more than 30min of your time, maybe 1 hour if you are a slow reader. And yet, less than 20% voter participation.

It is ironic that turnout for national elections, where their vote is moot is much higher. But for school boards, county positions, and city positions that actually have an effect on day to day life and expenses, people do not care as much.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by stickyricky on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:05PM (#29100250)
WA? That's how it was in Vancouver when I lived there. Best system I've experience so far. Also felt the government was very fair and in line with the community.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by mynameisash on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:16PM (#29100378)
I'm in WA now, came from MN. It infuriates me thinking about voting in-person: my wife and I used to go to our city hall, wait in line maybe a half hour to 45 minutes. We'd snake our way through the line, get our IDs checked, fill out these forms just so, and if you get a technicality wrong, you'd have to work with someone to fix it. Yadda yadda, finally you'd have time in a booth to cast your vote.

But now in WA, my wife and I typically make our morning coffee, sit out on the patio, read through the voter guide to understand what the arguments for and against a particular ballot initiative are and the statements given by individuals. We vote together, sign our ballot, seal it up, then we drive three blocks to a local drop site (only because I prefer doing that versus putting it in my mailbox).

It's super easy to participate in the system here, and in my jaded perspective, that's exactly why certain people and organizations hate it so much.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by acheron on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:23PM (#29100451)
The secret ballot is normally considered a cornerstone of democracy. Mail in voting completely destroys that. In my jaded perspective, that’s exactly why certain people and organizations love it so much.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by jamroom on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:30PM (#29100540)
Mail in voting is still secret ballot - you have an internal "secrecy sleeve" that is in turn mailed in an outer envelope. The outer envelope signature is compared to the signature on file, and then the internal envelope is removed but is not opened in the same location.

https://www.sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/wa_vbm.pdf

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/11/politics/barr-secret-vote-fac...

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by koolba on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:40PM (#29100670)
That doesn't stop a determined group of canvassers from going door to door and pressuring people to fill out their ballots on the spot while they wait on their doorstep. It's also a perfect time to offer a bribe or incentive for a speedy completion.

There's no way that any form of remote ballot is going to be as secure as doing it in person. It's just not possible because you will never know the provenance. Like most things that involve the legal system, it's not the law abiding that we're worried about.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by BuyMyBitcoins on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:08PM (#29101017)
I actually wonder how viable it would be to devise a targeted ballot spoiling attack.

Picture this:

Have a canvasser or harvester pick up mail in ballots. They take it to a safe house and open the envelopes. If it’s a vote for the candidate they don’t like, put marks on it so it doesn’t get counted. Place it in a new return envelope.

You’ve just cancelled that person’s vote. If someone checked that their vote was counted they wouldn’t be able to see that it was spoilt.

You could potentially just throw away the ballot too, I doubt most people check that they were actually received. But it does seem slightly more likely to raise eyebrows. I’m sure you could chalk it up to just getting lost at the post office.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by dlp211 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:40PM (#29102413)
You can't just return your ballot in any envelope, you'd have to have access to excess return envelopes which is a tall task.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by adding marks invalidating the ballot. If you fill out a ballot incorrectly, the poll workers will notify you that there are issues with your ballot.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by psadauskas on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:57PM (#29101575)
In Colorado, the return envelope has a unique barcode and has to be signed on the outside. Not fullproof, since they could print a new envelope with the same code and forge the signature, but not as easy as just having a stack of return envelopes to use.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by donarb on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:27PM (#29101253)
If there were canvassers knocking on doors and offering bribes for ballots you would hear about it here in Washington state. People here take their voting rights seriously.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:59PM (#29100895)
While the concerns are true, I am not sure if they are applicable to a society with higher levels of trust like I assume much of the US is in.

At least it is not a problem I know about where I live.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by koolba on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:30PM (#29100527)
Indeed. If you think the results from yesterday were a shellacking, imagine the carnage if there was no early or mail-in voting. In VA in particular there were ballots cast as early as late September. Given the turn of the contest in the final weeks, nobody could say with a straight face they would have all lined up to vote for McAuliffe in person. There's a reason certain groups want to bank those votes in advance.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:57PM (#29100871)
No one is forced to vote early with mail in ballots.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by HarryHirsch on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:54PM (#29100841)
Indeed. It's not unheard of that a local election in Britain is invalidated because of voting irregularities - someone collected ballot papers and made sure the vote goes to their man. I hear that that happens in ethnic enclaves in Miami as well.

The vote doesn't have to be convenient, but it absolutely has to be safe. Voter intimidation is impossible with in-person voting.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:28PM (#29100509)
I think you can have a secret ballot with mail in too if you drop it off in person.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by BikiniPrince on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:30PM (#29100531)
The book is terrible. I toss it out and read the proposal or at the worst look it up on a few sites that track issues. There is not enough information for complex issues and the wording in my experience is very biased. It takes me more time to vote, but at least I can make an informed decision.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:06PM (#29100261)
Yes. OR is the same.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by adolph on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:03PM (#29102158)
> People where I live get a ballot and a book in the mail weeks before the election with details for all the candidates and questions, and all you have to do is drop it in the outgoing mail.

Are the votes not secret or are the votes not verified as authentic?

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:53PM (#29103540)
Votes are secret and verified to ensure there is only 1 vote per person.

https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/faq_vote_by_mail.aspx

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by dlp211 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:08PM (#29100286)
It's not that simple. There was a multi-million dollar (I believe it was $18MM) coordinated campaign against Sweeny in 2017 that failed. It wasn't about offering voters a choice, they've had choices in the past.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by stickyricky on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:43PM (#29100700)
You're right its not. But there's something to be said for voting for one of two insiders or an insider versus an outsider.

I don't think Mr. Durr's achievement is replicable. In my opinion, significant election reform is necessary.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by syngrog66 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:38PM (#29100647)
> Well come to find about, of the 500 people who signed the petition to get this kid on the ballot, 1200 rescinded their support.

> You do the math.

I did and, well...

squints at those numbers

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by stickyricky on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:44PM (#29100709)
"The Chicago-School of Mathematics".
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by wrycoder on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:45PM (#29100720)
0.1% were dictating policy. The other 19.9% of the votes were just following directions.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by COGlory on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:01PM (#29100209)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxFhMVIPodk

Rossman is biased, but the facts do speak for themselves here. I couldn't believe this video

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by jrs235 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:24PM (#29100461)
OMG! New Jersey is going to be like a timeshare... some people are going to be stuck or have to pay someone to take their house. Hopefully they'll be able to get away from tax obligations though by letting the government take their property to pay the ungodly property taxes! I always thought Illinois was bad... "Hold my beer." - New Jersey
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by jrs235 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:26PM (#29100481)
If you are a New Jersey pension fund recipient (and you're smart), you moved out of New Jersey as quickly as possible.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by dlp211 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:15PM (#29100360)
That's an hour long video, could you provide a TL;DW?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by COGlory on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:48PM (#29103524)
Basically, the state borrowed money against unrealistic stock market returns on pension fund investments.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by hooande on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:06PM (#29100265)
People turned out to vote for the marquee election, the governor's race, and voted for that party all the way down the ballot. Almost anyone from the republican party would have wound up in the same position
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:00PM (#29100198)
Quoting Durr in Politico: [0]

Durr said Democratic Gov. Phil Murphy’s coronavirus executive orders, vaccine and school mask, unemployment benefits snafus and a general distrust of the South Jersey Democratic machine that has dominated the region for years all contributed to his strong performance.

Sweeney, Durr said, “never challenged” Murphy during the pandemic.

  “You have the debacle of unemployment. The masking of the kids in school.
  You have Senator Sweeney trying to take away peoples’ medical freedom rights.
  I think the perfect storm was that he stepped into
  a pile of you-know-what and couldn’t get out of it because he didn’t
  know which way to turn. I just tapped into the right focus.”
[0] https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2021/11/03/...

I think many people, if they aren't exposed to it or live around it, underestimate the massive anger and frustration that exists towards the Covid restrictions and policies, and vaccine mandates.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by davidw on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:07PM (#29100276)
I'm beginning to come around to this point of view: https://newsletters.theatlantic.com/peacefield/617c7b245793d... - we are not a serious nation.

There's a global pandemic caused by an airborne pathogen, and people throw an absolute hissy fit over a minor inconvenience like masks. My kids wear them all day long in school, and while they don't love them, they are not constantly whining about them like some adults.

My grandparents, on the other hand, dealt with wartime rationing for years (and they were lucky, because they lived in a place where they could hunt) because our country was in a global battle with Nazis. And all that after the depression.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:22PM (#29100437)
Probably it doesn't help that political leaders all over the world wear masks only for photo shoots. Internet is full of videos how they take masks off the second after shoot is over.

People rightfully consider this to be a hypocrisy.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by jbigelow76 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:53PM (#29100811)
People rightfully consider this to be a hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy can effectively dampen voter turnout of your supporters if they are idealistic enough. But it's an absolute non-factor if you can sufficiently demonize your opponent(s) and their positions, just look at Trump and how he has wrapped Evangelical America around his little finger.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by pvarangot on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:41PM (#29100686)
I would be ok with the orders if they really thought they were going to help. I was ok with the initial lockdowns, politicians where scared, and acted fast the best way they could.

Most orders after that where just polling their voters to see what they could do and look like "they are doing something" but angering the least people possible. That's bullshit, and even the governor of San Francisco and the governor of California where found bending their policy or breaking the rules multiple times.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ludicast on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:41AM (#29103913)
My masked son had a low pulse ox in his checkup. About 80, the same number that with covid should necessitate a hospital visit.

Supposedly a lot of kids have needed to demask to get a good pulse ox. As a parent this terrifies me.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by native_samples on Thursday November 04, 2021 @06:41AM (#29105423)
Masks don't work at all and never have, so your school is just making your kids unhappy for no reason.

https://ianmsc.substack.com/p/every-comparison-shows-masks-a...

They don't "whine" because they know it's pointless and the school/you will punish them if they do. Adults have more options.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by davidw on Thursday November 04, 2021 @11:21AM (#29108301)
Actual scientists doing real research have shown that masks do indeed work, even if they do not, of course, prevent transmission 100% of the time. I mean... the thing is airborne, why wouldn't they help?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by native_samples on Friday November 05, 2021 @11:34AM (#29120754)
Your intuitions about airborne transmission are based on the idea of viruses being carried in relatively huge droplets of water, which due to their size and weight would rapidly fall to the ground. Hence constantly wiping surfaces clean, sneezing into the nook of your arm, mask mandates and lockdowns reducing transmission, etc.

This theory is inconsistent with the evidence: mask mandates have no effect on case numbers and nor did lockdowns. Whether you like this or not is irrelevant - the data is final. Therefore the droplet theory is wrong, and by extension theories based on it are also wrong.

There is an alternative theory of how SARS-CoV-2 spreads through the air: that the viruses can exist in fine aerosols that can be suspended in the air for relatively long periods. This theory is consistent with the evidence actually available:

1. It's consistent with islands that closed their borders early being able to keep the virus out, but nowhere else.

2. It's consistent with mask wearing having no effect, because masks aren't airtight. You still need to breathe in the surrounding air and the holes in masks are much too large to stop a very fine suspended aerosol. Additionally it wouldn't matter even if they are airtight and very good filters because there's evidence the virus can enter via the eyeballs too.

3. It's consistent with lockdowns having no effect. Even in "lockdown" lots of people still need to be in areas recently vacated by other people, like shops, factories, anything to do with the supply chain.

4. It's consistent with the apparent lack of infections outside. Where the wind blows, aerosols emitted by an infected person are rapidly dispersed in the air.

5. It's consistent with the failure of measures like handwashing to keep the virus out of care homes.

It's also consistent with SARS-CoV-1, in which an outbreak was investigated and the conclusion was it circulated through an apartment block via air in drainpipes:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2003/04/18/i...

That isn't possible with the droplet theory, but is perfectly possible with aerosol theory.

The fact that "actual scientists" doing "real research" show that masks work is actually evidence that their research is garbage and they aren't "actual scientists", at least not if we define scientists as people who successfully apply the scientific method to understand reality. If they worked then you'd be able to consistently see the impact in case numbers, but that's simply impossible.

If you read any of their studies you'll soon be struck by how universally poor the quality of COVID research actually is. The scientific method as normally meant has more or less gone AWOL and what's left behind is a bunch of people who very much have an agenda desperately trying to justify why their previous advice wasn't wrong. I really couldn't care less what "actual scientists" think at this point. If they want to be taken seriously they need to provide evidence that's strongly convincing on its own merits, because their institutional credibility has long since turned to dust.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by busymom0 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:13PM (#29100345)
Kids have the most psychological development from looking at people's faces, emotions and smiles. Saying that's a "minor inconvenience" is silly. Especially since there's negligible risks for them.

And mandating something which neither prevents catching, nor transmitting the virus is definitely not a "minor inconvenience".

EDIT: In my last sentence, I wasn't referring to masks. I was referring to vaccine mandates which the truck driver also ran on.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by davidw on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:15PM (#29100356)
> And mandating something which neither prevents catching, nor transmitting the virus is definitely not a "minor inconvenience".

They have studied this though. Actual scientists, not people on Youtube or Facebook, and they have found that masks diminish the transmission of COVID-19. This is kind of what you'd expect with something airborne.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by clarge1120 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:31PM (#29100565)
The risk from infection is small enough to be considered zero. There is no reason to mask the children.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by tehjoker on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:11PM (#29101041)
Explain that to the kids that died or the older relatives that got sick from the infected kids.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by busymom0 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:25PM (#29101231)
> Explain that to the kids that died

At least 9 out of 10 children in the ICUs in North Carolina were obese.

https://www.wfae.org/health/2021-09-30/novant-says-9-of-10-c...

The iron-fisted one-size-fits-all approach has never been used in medicine and health except COVID.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by tehjoker on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:51PM (#29101514)
Nice of you to discard anyone with a health problem.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by chiefalchemist on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:23PM (#29101828)
Perhaps. But if such conditions increase risk why is the government reluctant to promote that fact? What is gained in the lack of honesty and transparency?

Along the same lines, ingoring this differentiator has allowed the gov the take a heavy handed on size fits all approach. If the risk is targeted, why is the loss of rights applied to everyone?

Finally, this approach is now being used to jab the kids.

That isn't justice. In fact - whether anyone agrees or disagree s - it smells like textbook authoritarianism. In that context, we are all discarded.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by tehjoker on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @10:17PM (#29102982)
Huge numbers of people have at least one co-morbidity. The number of perfectly healthy people is probably a minority of the country. The number of co-morbidity rises with declining income and dangerousness of work.

So all the bushiness owners and fancy lad writers, managers, programmers, and other white collars are better positioned to withstand the pandemic with virtually every advantage in both isolation and physical health. All those guys that eat shit because they don't have money or time and burn themselves out physically working hard get to die.

In a slightly different category of person, it's morbidly fascinating watching unvaccinated people on twitter note their buddy just died and say they had comorbidities with a profile pic that shows them to be obese.

In this case, we have to judge whether the petty authoritarianism of those that spread illness and death vs the government pushing everyone to help stop that with, at this point, a fairly convincingly safe vaccine.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by irthomasthomas on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:17PM (#29101121)
"Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%" (For medical professionals)

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.long

Why does everyone promote cloth masks, instead of proper N95 masks?

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by davidw on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:22PM (#29101200)
In Italy (we visited relatives this summer), everyone was wearing surgical masks, with some N95 here and there. No one had cloth masks. Surgical masks are cheap and easy to make and a country as wealthy as the US could ensure that everyone has an ample supply. We could probably even do that with N95's at this point.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by irthomasthomas on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:38PM (#29101372)
Surgical masks are cloth masks.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by rayiner on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:27PM (#29100496)
By how much, and is it worth it? The first is a scientific question. The second is a political question. Americans fail because neither side recognizes the difference.

Other developed countries are not masking kids as young as we are doing. Countries like France are rescinding mask mandates now. For us, there is no end in sight, even in highly vaccinated areas.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by davidw on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:29PM (#29100526)
We went to Italy over the summer, and mask usage was ubiquitous. Nothing fancy, just the basic surgical ones. They are required in schools there because children come into contact with adults.

"Is it worth it" is an ongoing question; at some point, it's probably not, but we're not there just yet. Our vaccination rates are still pretty low. And remember: the bellowing about masks started before we even had vaccines.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by b9a2cab5 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:05PM (#29100967)
"we're not there just yet" is a political decision, not a scientific one.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by davidw on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:13PM (#29101075)
Yes, but it can be based on more objective statistics though, like the local hospital being overrun with COVID patients, as ours was over the summer.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:19PM (#29101798)
It is a political decision to weigh all the various and multiple "facts" and make a value judgement involving tradeoffs of which interests are prioritized and which are subordinated.

It is a political and value judgement to err on the side of minuscule improvement, if any at all, from wearing masks and mandating vaccines for cohorts that statistically don't need to worry about covid, while degrading the social development of children, and hurting the wider economic interests of people affected by endless restrictions. These are all political questions. There are no all encompassing "facts" that delineate who is harmed and who is helped and in what proportions. That is the realm of politics.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by rkk3 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:19PM (#29101153)
> Our vaccination rates are still pretty low

Not really, 221 Million have had it-least 1 shot in the US and another 73 Million are under 18 and are at almost no risk (558 total deaths).

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by busymom0 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:09PM (#29101033)
I wasn't referring to masks in that statement. I was referring to vaccine mandates.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:19PM (#29100404)
Blocking the faces of children in the prime of their life, where they need to develop social skills through interaction and facial expression, is madness.

The covid risk for children is a rounding error. This is not prudent risk management; mind-boggling for someone from the tech industry who should be able to do a cursory look at statistics and dismiss this practice out of hand.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by generalk on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:50PM (#29100777)

  > Blocking the faces of children in the prime of their 
  > life, where they need to develop social skills through 
  > interaction and facial expression, is madness.
[Citation needed.] I am unable to find a single reliable source that says mask wearing has any sociological or psychological effect on children or anyone else. Anecdotally, I haven't seen anything like that. Just typical kids.

  > The covid risk for children is a rounding error.
Again, who says that's true? Can't find it. The Ohio Department of Health maintains a dashboard[1] for this, which indicates that it's significant enough to track, and the numbers there sure aren't "rounding error" numbers.

Assuming what you meant is "children are less likely to develop severe symptoms," and also that that's true: they can still spread the virus to the adults they live with in their homes, or the many adults that share the school building they're in. (Did you think we just shove kids in an adult-less environment, or that teachers are somehow immune?)

[1]: https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/dashboa...

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:41PM (#29101978)
You're only saying that you don't care about the detrimental effects of masking children or disrupting normal education processes, because adults will have some minor unspecified improvement on their rate of catching covid. Ok.

I disagree that it's worth harming kids development to attempt to avoid spreading a coronavirus that is becoming endemic, will always be around, and whose spread can't be stopped. Not worth it.

Ohio total covid deaths: 24,763

Ohio total 18 and under covid deaths: 12

Ohio total 18 and under population (2019): 2,578,019

If this isn't a rounding error, what is?

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by busymom0 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:17PM (#29101119)
> I am unable to find a single reliable source that says mask wearing has any sociological or psychological effect on children or anyone else.

You are looking for the wrong thing. Look for what the benefits of things like smiling and seeing smiling faces has on people's emotional health.

> A happy face signals positive emotions, as well as attachment availability, care, support, and credibility [7,8,9]. Recently, Tamir and Hughes [10] argued that positive social signals such as smiling faces not only serve ultimate goals (e.g., forming strong bonds) but they are also rewarding in and off themselves.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6356968/

https://www.healthline.com/health/baby/when-will-my-baby-smi...

Hiding the main part of your face - the smile is not healthy for people, and especially not for kids whose entire social skills development heavily relies on these things.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by wrycoder on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:51PM (#29100788)
I see maskless parents shepherding their masked small children around. The kids are obviously self conscious about the masks, and at the same time, they appear to be proud to wear them.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by busymom0 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:12PM (#29101067)
> they appear to be proud to wear them

Being proud to be "obedient" is not always a good thing. Also this cannot be generalized. Plus it doesn't make something being mandatory right, especially when looking at people's smiles is crucial for kids development.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by wrycoder on Thursday November 04, 2021 @09:45AM (#29107097)
I don't mean to suggest that it's right, or even mandatory.

What I'm observing is that peculiar mix of self consciousness, smugness, and pride you sometimes see in young children, when they believe they are acting morally.

I'm not using quite the right words here - the emotions I'm listing are more mature. But the same emotions exist in children, just not fully matured.

Since the parents were maskless, I think the kids wanted to wear theirs because they've been taught at school that it's the right thing to do. The ones I observed appeared to be around eight years old.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by vadfa on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:13PM (#29101083)
Kids are proud to wear something that makes it harder for them to breathe and recognise the emotions of others? Give me a break...
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by skinnymuch on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:34PM (#29103445)
Darn so blind or other kids with bad vision don’t get most psychological development? Are we doing anything about this? It has to be a major crisis for all those people to grow up with stunted psychological development.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by themgt on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:48PM (#29100749)
Fully vaccinated people no longer need to wear a mask in most settings.

The choice is yours: get vaccinated or wear a mask until you do.

- The White House, May 14, 2021

https://www.facebook.com/WhiteHouse/videos/its-vaxxed-or-mas...

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by davidw on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:49PM (#29100758)
'When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?'

It looked like things were improving, and the more contagious Delta variant (or, as the airline likes to write, B.1.617.2) turned up.

Where I live in Oregon, our hospital was overflowing with people towards the end of summer, to the point where people have died because they couldn't get 'elective' surgery. In that kind of situation, you use a 'defense in depth' strategy, which includes both vaccines and masks.

It's really not that big of a problem to wear one.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by busymom0 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:22PM (#29101195)
> 'When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?'

That's not the problem. The problem is that those who were saying the "now correct" thing prior to the "experts" changing their minds were first called misinformation. The "experts" make definitive statements without any nuance and when they get proven wrong, they don't apologize.

For example the Press Secretary said "this is the pandemic of the unvaccinated" a week ago and then couple days later, she tested positive.

Here's another example:

> “We don't talk enough to you about this, I don't think. One last thing that's really important is, we're not in the position where we think that any virus, including the Delta virus, which is much more transmissible and more deadly in terms of unvaccinated people, the -- the various shots that people are getting now cover that. You're OK. You're not going to -- you're not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.” - Biden said on Jul 22.

I posted in July on HN that Israel's data shows this statement is literally not true. But I was called misinformation.

[dead]
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by VRay on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:26PM (#29100486)
https://covid19.healthdata.org/japan?view=daily-deaths&tab=t...

Basically no lockdown other than shutting down bars at 8 PM, plenty of exposure between proximity to China and super-crowded trains

The difference between Japan and the USA is their ubiquitous mask use

We went on a 20 year jihad over a single 9/11's worth of preventable deaths in the USA, and yet we can't be bothered to take any action when we're racking up a 9/11 every couple of days?

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america?view...

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by irthomasthomas on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:36PM (#29101352)
Are you serious? Japan has THE HIGHEST life expectancy in the world! And America is ranked 34. Maybe your source isn't very honest, if they failed to point this out?

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/japan-life-expectancy

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by fomine3 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @09:24PM (#29102671)
Higher elderly population means people tend to die due to covid.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by impostergc on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:33PM (#29100589)
Compare obesity between the two nations and I think you'll find the culprit.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by judahmeek on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:34PM (#29100596)
You mentioned statistics in another comment of yours, just slightly above this one.

Can you show me statistics regarding this "real and obvious risk of psychological and social harm" of children wearing masks?

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:08PM (#29101699)
No, I don't need statistics to understand covering the faces of young children for extended periods is going to harm their social development. Do you disagree that social cues are important, and come from facial expressions? Do you need a study for this? I sure don't. I guess we'll have to see which children have stronger development going forward.. masked or unmasked schools. It's a risk I certainly wouldn't take with my own kids.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by p_j_w on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:30PM (#29101885)
>I don't need statistics to understand covering the faces of young children for extended periods is going to harm their social development.

You're literally saying you don't require evidence for your views and trying to frame this as a virtue?

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:58PM (#29102529)
Yes. 100%. Of course it is a virtue to have the right instincts and judgement, and not need studies to function in life and make all decisions, when choices have to be made one way or the other, studies or not.

What possible study could give you definitive information to decide here? Social "sciences" are rife with replication errors, the whole industry is suspicious.

But so what? This is such a modern hyper rational mode of thinking. It's a weak mentality to be unable to use experience and judgement to act and decide but to defer to dubious "experts" to tell you how to live and raise your own children in the context of something so obvious as "kids need to see faces and be seen to develop socially" given masks don't stop the spread of covid and they're not at risk anyways; they should have normal social interaction and not live in a bubble for 2 years.

We already know the risk from covid for kids is virtually non-existent. You're willing to risk their social development because no one told you to do otherwise yet? How did your ancestors navigate such perilous environments and situations without a bunch of studies to tell them what the "facts" are for every decision? They had to think for themselves quite often, using their wisdom and intuition

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by skinnymuch on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:29PM (#29103413)
The problem with your self righteousness is that it is not obvious at all that masks are damaging to children. That thinking seems completely silly to me. Such an irreverent unimportant thing as a mask mattering.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by twofornone on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:47PM (#29100739)
That's disingenuous. These statistics won't necessarily manifest for years, if they're teased out of sociological data at all. Someone has to go looking for them in the first place, and in this environment its unlikely that anyone will stick their neck out to suggest that masks are counterproductive.

This is the danger of politicized science. It becomes one sided and a-scientific.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by generalk on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:38PM (#29100646)
Sure, a cloth mask won't STOP Covid. But the science indicates that community mask wearing does decrease transmission rates as mask wearing rates go up.[1]

Similarly, the current vaccine does not prevent infection, but it significantly reduces symptoms and helps reduce the amount of people who'd otherwise be hospitalized with COVID-19.[2]

Death rates are the most serious metric to look at (and it's abysmal), but certainly not the only metric. Long-term effects of the virus aren't well understood, but individuals have reported brain fog or lack of sense of taste/smell long after clearing the flu-like symptoms.[3] Folks who get sick and transmit the virus, or are severely hospitalized, have still been affected.

Most children do not have issues masking in school unless trusted adults are telling them it's a problem. I have two sons, both of whom mask at school with no complaint, and the school has a full mask mandate except at mealtimes for those eating. Neither the school nor the district have reported any instances of psychological or social harm, and I'm having a hard time finding a credible source that believes that's true.

So, we have a set of assumed (or just plain made up) negatives, and a whole host of scientifically proven benefits. When folks say we are not a serious nation, they mean that this debate is even happening in the first place. The reasonable asks: a facemask indoors in public, and a vaccine. Against a worldwide pandemic that's killed over 700,000 in the United States alone and shut down our hospital systems in some cities.

[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythings... [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythings...

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ghoward on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:07PM (#29102181)
> The reasonable asks: a facemask indoors in public, and a vaccine.

Those are not reasonable. You may think they are, but there are obviously people who disagree.

Also, the vaccine and masks may have been a reasonable ask, but it is not a reasonable mandate! Once mandates started kicking in, and politicians started saying "The voluntary phase is over" while not following their own rules, then they became unreasonable and definitely not "asks".

Also, we have had far worse pandemics and have not had those "asks".

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by skinnymuch on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:31PM (#29103427)
Which ones? We used masks during the Spanish Flu. That’s the other biggest pandemic. We don’t really have any others that compare.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ghoward on Thursday November 04, 2021 @12:38AM (#29103715)
We used masks during the Spanish Flu until politicians were caught not using masks.

Also, the Hong Kong Flu might be close to COVID in per capita deaths.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by skinnymuch on Sunday November 07, 2021 @11:11AM (#29140629)
There’s a whole bunch of reasons for the masks not used as Spanish Flu went on.

However, it was a mainstay for a period of time without any where close to the current division over using masks.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ghoward on Sunday November 07, 2021 @03:56PM (#29143437)
And the Spanish Flu was far deadlier. Perhaps that matters?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by atkailash on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:41PM (#29100677)
Why do people forget that it’s not just that children are mostly safe. Sure that may be true…but they carry that home to family who absolutely are at risk. That is why it’s a useful mitigation.

Why do people forget that an infectious disease doesn’t stick to just one person? Do they not get what infectious means?

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by PKop on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:12PM (#29101728)
Then you are sacrificing the well being of children, and their social development, for some perceived (likely minor) benefit to decreasing spread to older family members. But it worse, because Covid is becoming endemic. It's a coronavirus. It is never going away. We are going to have Covid infections forever. So what has been gained?

It would be much more beneficial to encourage weight loss and fitness regime for overweight people. The vast majority of deaths have occurred from overweight comorbidities. But this has never been widely addressed as a tactic to decrease severe cases.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by skinnymuch on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:32PM (#29103436)
What social development is at risk from masks on kids? And their well being? Negatively affected by masks?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by sjg007 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:25PM (#29100472)
Stop spreading disinformation.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by ajmurmann on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:16PM (#29100377)
Yeah, the pandemic has really highlighted how many people rather adjust their world view and deny basic facts when accepts something that's uncomfortable or just plainly don't want to make even the smallest sacrifice for society.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by clarge1120 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:34PM (#29100593)
Define “the smallest sacrifice”.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by bingohbangoh on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:14PM (#29101094)
Not trying to dunk, but comments like this -- assuming that a blue collar, republican challenger is automatically bad -- says a lot more about the OP than it does about the situation.
[dead]
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by bingohbangoh on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:38PM (#29101380)
The Republican party, much like the Democratic party, is a wide tent with many people. Local races involve a lot more complicated characters. You'd run as Republican because they're the default alternative choice in a lot of places. Or you could lose and say its on principle I guess.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:37PM (#29100630)
Many NJ residents work(ed) in NY. Of which, many are high earners who could be contributing significant amounts to the state tax rolls but NY claims income tax from anyone who commutes there. To make up the difference towns have to jack up property taxes. Things should hopefully change with remote work not happening in NY anymore.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:08PM (#29101014)
NJ's debt per taxpayer is multiple standard deviations above the norm. On the order of $60k per taxpayer versus $10k to $20k in other states. That is just at the state level, who knows what is going at the city level, and there are a ton of tiny fiefdoms with highly paid personnel.

https://www.truthinaccounting.org/library/doclib/FSOS-Bookle...

I do not see anyway out of repaying these debts from previous decades with higher taxes compared to other states.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by skinnymuch on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:26PM (#29103397)
If NJ is in such deep waters. Which it seems like it is. What is up with the stats and data of which states give more to the fed than what they get back and Vice versa. Why is NJ always giving more? If they have so much debt?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by rsj_hn on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:36PM (#29103455)
> Why is NJ always giving more? If they have so much debt?

Because we have progressive taxation and a lot of rich people live in New Jersey, so they pay more in taxes. A state doesn't need to be in financial trouble because it is poor, it is in financial trouble if it makes more promises than it can afford to pay given its tax base. The constant raiding of employee pension funds and various financial ponzi schemes is why NJ is in trouble.

    Median household income in 2019
    NJ[1] = 85K
    US[2] = 69K

[1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/NJ/SBO001212

[2] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-27...

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by skinnymuch on Sunday November 07, 2021 @11:14AM (#29140654)
I don’t understand why NJ gives more than it gets back though. Is it only based around the state’s average income?
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by Steltek on Thursday November 04, 2021 @09:25AM (#29106879)
NH and MA have a similar dichotomy. NH residents commute into MA for work, where they pay MA income tax, and so the NH property taxes are usually higher than a comparable home in MA.

However, and no offense to NJ, I think living in NH has a ton of appeal. You're so close to amazing backpacking, skiing, lakes, etc. It's a really beautiful state. People staying in full time WFH are going to have an amazing balance of occasional office trips in MA and access to adventure.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by heavyset_go on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:55PM (#29100136)
The 2020 election mobilized certain demographics in NJ to vote, and there's been a moderately successful campaign to paint the sitting governor as literally Hitler for the last two years.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by pvarangot on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:37PM (#29100640)
The same way Hillary lost to an extreme right wing populist reality TV star. Leadership is dumber than what they think and just there because they are the least incompetent of the political caste, but they act as if they were the all righteous saviors while delivering nothing of value to their voters except for campaign promises.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by mrverify on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:40PM (#29102415)
NJ isn't south jersey. south jersey could be reasonably plucked out of anywhere in deep red fly over country with 2 coasts(Atlantic,deleware) on each side.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by jhawk28 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:53PM (#29100113)
Something was mentioned about 150k total voters, but only 32k ever voted for the incumbent.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by dsr_ on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:02PM (#29100217)
150,000 people eligible to vote. 32,000 votes for the incumbent. Hence, 118,000 people who would either vote for someone else or could be persuaded to come and vote.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by busymom0 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:05PM (#29100254)
Yep. DecisionDesk shows GOP got 32,682 whereas the incumbent DEM got 30,352 with 96% in.
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by throwaway6734 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:45PM (#29100029)
My gut take is that the removal of the SALT deduction had a huge impact in NJ due to the very high property taxes
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:52PM (#29100102)
I doubt the vast majority of people (probably less than 10%) in NJ are paid enough to be affected by SALT since standard deduction went up so much. Property plus state income tax liabilities would have to be more than $12.5k/$25k single/married for people to have been affected.

I would bet on school closings and the trend of higher taxes/less government services, but the latter is unavoidable due to the outlier amounts of debt NJ has.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by throwaway6734 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:06PM (#29100257)
>According to recent reporting, if we reinstated the SALT deduction, nearly a third of New Jersey residents — almost three million people — would get tax relief. As many as 80% of them have incomes of $216,000 or less. Hardly the 1%.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/opinion/2021/05/17/salt-de...

NJ has very high property tax rates and high home values

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:15PM (#29100362)
The writer used the word “average”, but it would be clearer if they used median, or quintiles or deciles. I could not find a source for the report they claim to be saying 3 million people in NJ would benefit.

NJ income tax is ~4%, and average property taxes are not that high:

https://www.nj.com/politics/2020/03/njs-average-property-tax...

It would be nice to find statistics by percentile, but I would find it hard to believe that many single households are living in houses paying $8k+ property tax, and married households are paying $16k in property tax.

I use $8k and $16k because that would mean the remaining $4k and $8k would be for income tax for a person earning $100k/year (78th percentile) or a couple earning $200k per year (83rd percentile).

https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-state-calculator/

Edit: the best way to figure out if the SALT caps hurt or not is to see if the amount of people itemizing on federal returns increased or not. I cannot find any NJ specific statistics, but IRS says only 11% of tax filers itemized in 2019.

Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by newsclues on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:58PM (#29100172)
Systemic corruption
Re:Truck driver leads NJ Senate president after spending $15... by uselesscynicism on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:49PM (#29100084)
Predicament? A regular Joe beat a career politician for local representative. In what world is that a predicament?

Or are you so completely partisan that having an R next to his name makes him obviously the wrong choice, even though he was liberal enough to be palatable to New Jersey voters (not exactly a paragon of conservatism)?