News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by lodovic on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:50AM (#29014034)
"The targeted activity has been observed against organizations based in the United States and across Europe since May 2021. NOBELIUM is the same actor behind the SolarWinds compromise in 2020, and this latest activity shares the hallmarks of the actor’s compromise-one-to-compromise-many approach."

Just tell us which country.. It's probably one of two options.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by schleck8 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:11PM (#29016086)
Russia, Mitre profile is here:

https://attack.mitre.org/groups/G0016/

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by Keyframe on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:55AM (#29014095)
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by shireboy on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:04PM (#29016787)
I don't really like the way attribution for these sorts of things happens. Conspiracy theories aside, we do have a history of questionable attribution (Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq WMD to name two). So a rational mind is right to be skeptical and ask for evidence before accepting a narrative whole cloth.

Instead, we are rarely given any evidence at all. In the article cited, we're just supposed to trust that Microsoft knows it's Russian government and can prove it. When we _are_ given some explanation, it's usually pretty weak: IP addresses are from XYZ country, metadata in a word doc is ABC language, etc. Add to that you have criminal elements that may or may not be controlled by their government.

...and then when you do question, you're downvoted, accused of being a shill, etc. I understand this sort of thing can rarely be proven 100%, and there is a need to protect intelligence sources and methods, but given that we should stop speaking and behaving as though things are 100% certain. Personally I'd like to see articles present more evidence and/or summarize into a percentage. "We rate the likelihood this is XYZ branch of Russian government at 60% due to the following factors: ...."

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:24PM (#29017058)
> you have criminal elements that may or may not be controlled by their government

We can debate whether the Kremlin controls Russia's criminal elements. What is apparent is it's unwilling to pursue them. So much so that they practically live in the open.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by jcrawfordor on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:35PM (#29017229)
I think the major problem for organizations like MSTIC is that the vast majority of information they have access to came from other companies under strict confidentiality agreements. This is the norm in information security, most intelligence sharing goes through large vendor security centers or ISACs. In order to encourage/facilitate that sharing, these organizations require all of their members to agree to non-disclosure regimes (the "traffic light protocol" classification scheme is common in ISACs).

It creates a bureaucratic situation where a company might have a great deal of data points to base an attribution on, but is prevented from disclosing 95% of them... not necessarily out of concern about source protection, but simply by contract with the data source(s).

There's a long-running controversy within the industry about whether or not this situation is productive. The confidentiality agreements make corporations more willing to disclose data due to reduced risk of reputational damage and liability. But it also tends to make research and open communication more difficult and vague. The federal government has been through basically the exact same controversy over the last two decades regarding intelligence sharing, and to further complicate things it's common for there to be government elements (e.g. DHS) involved in these circles that mean there are also confidentiality agreements between government agencies and private industry that enforce many of the same rules.

At its core, this comes out of a fundamental tension of liability and the law: is it better to do research that will produce damning material in lawsuit discovery, or to avoid doing the research and remain ignorant to the problem? Various industries have various half-solutions to this problem (e.g. Patient Safety Organizations in healthcare that are exempt from discovery), but the dominant one in information security reflects the roots of the industry in the intelligence community: anonymity of sources and confidentiality of information.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by lodonnell9213 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:11PM (#29017700)
There will likely be some form of confidential agreement with another party who supplied the info to MSFTIC, however, I also agree with your statement.

Microsoft has been quite lax lately with a lot of things, you only need to see the stuff Kevin Beaumont is posting (ex-MSFT employee - senior cyber) about them knowingly hosting malware in OneDrive (standout as a OneDrive user), and knowing about a lot of issues and potentially being rather passive about fixing them.

I love MSFT products, but lately from what I’ve been reading, their attitude to a lot of things security lately is a bit worrisome to me, I could be completely wrong as i don’t know what’s happening internally, but it’s also slightly worrying from one of essentially, the most powerful cyber security firms around.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by criddell on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:59AM (#29014170)
Russia. Saved you a click.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by 369548684892826 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:09PM (#29015184)
Weird because Russia isn't really a nation-state.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by kube-system on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:35PM (#29015597)
It has somehow become common for people to use "nation-state" almost interchangeably with "state" without fully considering the connotations it implies. Regardless, there's not a clearly agreed upon threshold of how much national identity must be shared to qualify as a nation-state, nor was Microsoft intending to make any sort of commentary on national identity.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by whatshisface on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:08PM (#29016049)
>there's not a clearly agreed upon threshold of how much national identity must be shared to qualify as a nation-state

The best place to draw the line is Texas. More national identity than Texas and you're a nation-state, less and you're a state. The nationality of Texas is undefined in this scheme, which is just as they would have it.

P.S. people call extremely well-funded cybersecurity adversaries "nation-state adversaries" because those three words start with the letters NSA. It's a joke about US national security being the greatest threat to US private security.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:54PM (#29016650)
> The best place to draw the line is Texas. More national identity than Texas and you're a nation-state, less and you're a state.

When used in the politico-social sense that invokes national identity, nation-state still takes as a minimum requirement the functional sense of Westphalian sovereignty, which Texas lacks. Texas would probably be considered a nation-state in both senses if it was a nation-state in the functional sense; but as a subordinate unit of a Westphalian sovereignty it is not a nation-state in the functional sense, much less the narrower social sense.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by tptacek on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:19PM (#29016176)
The "nation-" at the beginning of the term also doesn't add any context that is useful to understanding the story. People should just try not to use that term unless they're making some kind of sociological point. It's "state-level adversary", or something similar.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:00PM (#29016735)
> The "nation-" at the beginning of the term also doesn't add any context that is useful to understanding the story

Yes, it does, it distinguishes Westphalian sovereigns (like thr U.S.) from federated states (like Rhode Island).

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by pvg on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:50PM (#29017443)
distinguishes Westphalian sovereigns

This introduces the much more serious meta-problem of distinguishing commenters who merely happen to use 'Westphalian' from Lyndon LaRouche fans.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by tptacek on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:58PM (#29019025)
It does that by abusing a term that isn't directly applicable, and meanwhile there is no serious ambiguity: when people say "state-level actors", nobody thinks they're talking about Nebraska. People talk about "statecraft", not about "nation-statecraft".
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:06PM (#29019143)
> It does that by abusing a term that isn't directly applicabl

It is directly applicable, and not at all a used; the broader functional (Westphalian sovereign) and social (the functional definition + two-way close mapping to a nationality) definitions of “nation-state” are both technical definitions widely used (and distinguished by context) in the field from which the term originates. (Just like “consistency” has different meanings in a CAP context vs. an ACID one, except with less ambiguity for “nation-state”, because compared to the functional and social definitions of “nation-state”, the CAP and ACID definitions of “consistency” are far more likely to both be plausibly relevant in the same context.)

The common use in cybersecurity is exactly the functional definition, not an abuse of terminology.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by tptacek on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:32PM (#29020893)
The common use in cybersecurity is puffery (as of course is the term "cyber").
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:50PM (#29016616)
> Weird because Russia isn't really a nation-state.

Its a nation-state in the functional sense (a Westphalian sovereignty) but arguably not in the politico-social sense (a nation-state in the functional sense that is also aligned with a single national identity and vice versa), though like most Westphalian sovereigns where that is true, works very hard to align national identity with the state, and the former sense is mostly a clear, concrete distinction [0] while the latter sense is a platonic ideal which is, at best, approximated, so binary inclusion/exclusion is always something of an arbitrary line-drawing exercise.

[0] And mostly corresponds to status in international law, but there are exceptions

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by emkoemko on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:27PM (#29016290)
more likely its NSA/CIA... i mean how can anyone even know, look at NSA/CIA program "Marble" its designed to do this make their hacks look like Russians are doing it etc.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by skjhhhhhhhnnn on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:06AM (#29014281)
>which the U.S. government and others have identified as being part of Russia

Microsoft is not making their own determination of who the state actor is and is just letting the three letter agencies' finger pointing fly with no evidence. There is however significant evidence indicating a country other than Russia in the FBI's Solarwinds report that contradicts the headlines if you read the body of the report.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by Ansil849 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:15AM (#29014406)
> There is however significant evidence indicating a country other than Russia

Such as?

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by emkoemko on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:30PM (#29016335)
CIA? look at Vault 7 "Marble" program.... and you really think hackers don't do what the CIA does? could be anyone basically... China etc etc and are probably doing the same crap as the CIA with their "Marble" program attributing the hacks to another state.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by cronix on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:12PM (#29016891)
Look! The comments in the code are in Cyrillic! Therefore, it can only mean that... /s
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by djbusby on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:37PM (#29017252)
...it was copied from Stackoverflow?
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by mrRandomGuy on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:09PM (#29015185)
Less than 1 hour old account created to say that there's significant evidence that Russia isn't behind this without saying what evidence....
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by rvnx on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:32PM (#29016362)
Well it's not really right to censor his answer.

The narrative US = good, Russia = bad is true but only if you are in the US. In Russia you see the complete opposite.

Both US and Russian intelligence have lied in the past, it's part of their job.

For example, the intelligence agencies don't have the right to spy or attack their own population (as far as I know), but there is nothing that forbids them to ask an ally to do it and put the blame on someone else.

Russia denies doing it, and both US and Russia have interest into collecting this data, so starting from there, it's important to keep an open mind that the interactions between countries are not black & white.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by devit on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:53AM (#29014078)
The first link has this text: "Today, we’re sharing the latest activity we’ve observed from the Russian nation-state actor Nobelium. This is the same actor behind the cyberattacks targeting SolarWinds customers in 2020 and which the U.S. government and others have identified as being part of Russia’s foreign intelligence service known as the SVR."
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by rvnx on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:51AM (#29014058)
Russia according to the previous deductions of the US government about this group
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by chrisseaton on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:10PM (#29015211)
Russia isn't a nation-state though.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by ssklash on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:34PM (#29015575)
What do you mean by this? Is it because they didn't explicitly say "The Russian Federation"? Because we both know that's exactly what they meant, and that it is most certainly a nation-state.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by chrisseaton on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:35PM (#29015592)
A nation-state is a state that perfectly aligns with a nationality. Hence nation-state. A nation that is also a state. The Russian Federation is a state with many nationalities within its borders. So it isn't a nation-state.

Other classic examples of non-nation-states are the UK and the US.

https://www.quora.com/Is-Russia-a-nation-state

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by ssklash on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:44PM (#29015741)
I think you misunderstand the use of nation-state in the context of threat actors then. It simply means government backed, as opposed to a private entity like a ransomware gang or NSO Group. Splitting hairs about nationalities is irrelevant when talking about who is behind a cyberattack.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by maigret on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:11PM (#29016872)
Indeed, in security this term works well because it means often “not explicitly related national agents acting for the state”. This loose coupling allows the responsible states to deny accusation while harming their target through unofficial partners (national or not).
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by chrisseaton on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:47PM (#29015788)
If you don't mean 'nation-state' then why use that very specific technical word instead of just saying 'country'?

It's like saying 'I saw a 2019 Ford Focus in blue' and then when someone points out it was actually a green Dodge saying 'well I just meant any car why are you splitting hairs'.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by ssklash on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:54PM (#29015867)
In cybersecurity, and in the attribution of cyberattacks especially, nation-state actor is a very specific technical word. Words mean different things in different fields, and in this case the word is very clear and obvious in conveying what is intended, which is a government backed threat actor.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:01PM (#29015965)
> If you don't mean 'nation-state' then why use that very specific technical word

Nation-state has at least two specific uses in its field of origin (political science), which are closely linked conceptually though very different. It can mean either a state that is approximately one-to-one with a nation as became something of a European norm after after the Peace of Westphalia, or it can be the structural kind of sovereign that became the norm in the same space after the peace of Westphalia (a synonym for the latter sense is “Westphalian sovereign”).

When the context is more legal/structural the latter use dominates, when it leans more to the social the former use does.

The cybersecurity use matches the latter use.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by rvnx on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:58PM (#29015916)
https://www.microsoft.com/security/blog/uploads/securityprod...

From this map, you can clearly see that Microsoft uses nation-state and country interchangeably

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by unethical_ban on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:30PM (#29016328)
Is this the first time you've heard the term "nation-state" in cybersecurity context? Used as an adjective, "nation-state adversary" flows better/sounds cooler than "government-backed adversary" or "country-level adversary".

You may be right in poli-sci class, but that's just how it is in cybersecurity. To use your framework, it would be like me colloquially asking "do you have a car?" and someone responding "yeah, a Jeep Wrangler". Car = automobile. But I wouldn't be that casual when filling out my auto's title information.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by KoftaBob on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:40PM (#29017297)
> It simply means government backed, as opposed to a private entity like a ransomware gang or NSO Group.

I would be incredibly surprised if Israel's intelligence didn't make use of NSO tech, especially since their founders came right out of Unit 8200, their military intelligence cyber warfare division.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by SahAssar on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:46PM (#29015769)
Could you give examples of states that you consider to be nation states? It seems like there must be a sliding scale, and basically any state would fail a "perfectly aligns" test, so I'm guessing there is some lesser definition to go by.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by chrisseaton on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:48PM (#29015795)
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by hdjjhhvvhga on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:52PM (#29015830)
In the context of cybersecurity this term has a specific meaning and refers to an adversary that has the highest level of resources usually attributed to a state.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by cronix on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:20PM (#29016997)
Pedantic arguments don't change the substance.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by emkoemko on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:26PM (#29016276)
probably CIA/NSA didn't we learn about this already how they do this type of stuff and leave fake evidence that it is some other nation doing it?

its their "Marble" program, that was leaked in Vault 7

"Marble is used to hamper forensic investigators and anti-virus companies from attributing viruses, trojans and hacking attacks to the CIA,"

so how can anyone really say who did what when it comes to cyber crimes? unless you have a camera watching the person doing it?

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by TheRealDunkirk on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:41PM (#29016488)
I would also expect Russian/Chinese hackers to get someone to come into such a discussion such as this, and deflect comments against them towards the CIA/NSA, as you have done 4 times already in this small thread. Who can believe anything any more, in the post-modern over-information age?
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by emkoemko on Monday November 01, 2021 @03:28PM (#29071743)
yea i could be, that's the point. I don't trust any government or "corporate" source on this type of stuff unless they show me physical evidence. I ain't defending those countries if that's what your suggesting, i am very anti CCP and Putin but i don't just attribute stuff to them because some "expert" says they did a hack.. based on what? something that could easily be made to look like any state did it like what the dump from the CIA shows... i use CIA because that's the only public state information we have about this type of program.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by lazyeye on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:30AM (#29023723)
Exactly.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by colechristensen on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:31PM (#29016353)
One would expect every intelligence group and sophisticated criminal to attempt to misdirect in exactly this way.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by emkoemko on Monday November 01, 2021 @03:32PM (#29071813)
whats the misdirect? is it not true a state would not try to obfuscate the who is doing the attack? so Microsoft telling us its "X" without direct physical evidence is bs to me. Even the NSA intercepts network equipment orders and installs backdoor before sending them back to being delivered... now your hack is coming from "X" but it was done from "Y" using that hacked router etc, you get the picture? how can you know who did what?
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by raxxorrax on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:59AM (#29023216)
Yes, but that is almost as true for foreign groups as domestic ones.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by raxxorrax on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:58AM (#29023204)
I think we cannot know the answer. But the info from Microsoft shouldn't be weighted too much since they are a contractor.

Could be Russia, could be domestic agencies. I think it is safer to deduct responsibility by the reaction.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by emkoemko on Monday November 01, 2021 @03:34PM (#29071847)
yea that's my point, who can know unless you have like a spy in the place doing the hacking. Yes of course China and Russia are probably doing these things, i just don't accept this type of evidence, just like i didn't accept the "WMD" bs
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by dragonelite on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:02PM (#29017594)
Ooh yeah Vault 7 but we all know all nation states spy and hack each other. We are in a whole new world where we now have bipolar situation of Eurasians vs Anglo-Saxons going full spectrum warfare against each other.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by decebalus1 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:53AM (#29014081)
AFAIK the SolarWinds attack was found to be linked to the Russian government.
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by emkoemko on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:33PM (#29016371)
was it? what if China is using the CIA "Marble" program as well? or even the US could be doing it. I don't doubt Russia is doing cyber warfare but how can anyone without seeing the hacker doing his thing really know for sure what state it came from?
Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by decebalus1 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:31PM (#29017187)
> how can anyone without seeing the hacker doing his thing really know for sure what state it came from?

IDK, maybe using the same type of reasoning which helps convict criminals in cases where there are no witnesses.

Re:Microsoft has detected nation-state activity associated w... by capableweb on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:58AM (#29014146)
I'd say there are more countries in the running for this than two. Possible options: China, US, Russia, Israel, North Korea and more