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Re:Michelin Airless by ddlsmurf on Thursday October 14, 2021 @10:57AM (#28865142)
Complete layman here, every 6 months or so for the past decade I see an article claiming someone got air-less tires working. What are the chances this would be it ?
Re:Michelin Airless by kllrnohj on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:28PM (#28868048)
Air-less tires have been working fine for decades: https://www.nasa.gov/specials/wheels/

You'll also find industrial equipment examples like https://www.sourceproequipment.com.au/crocodile-skid-steer-b...

As the person you're replying to said, though, the problem for passenger cars is NVH. They aren't quiet.

Even with that downside, though, they are still used in consumer-facing applications like some bike sharing programs: https://medium.com/@fredchang/by-now-youve-probably-heard-of...

Where a smoother ride is less significant than unlocking a bike & finding a flat tire.

Re:Michelin Airless by bserge on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:31PM (#28869643)
What the hell, I've been looking for something like this for the past few months. Only ones I could find were Tannus (too soft) and Schwalbe (garbage).

Don't care about weight, noise, ride quality, just need unbreakable tires because riding through neighborhoods where people break glass bottles on the bike paths will make me smash someone's head with one someday.

Re:Michelin Airless by jonahhorowitz on Thursday October 14, 2021 @09:26PM (#28872787)
Panaracer T-Serv Messenger bike tires are what you're looking for. They're lighter than the gatorskins and work incredibly well. I rode one pair until the tread was gone in SF (several years) and never got one flat tire.

https://www.panaracerusa.com/collections/commuter-city/produ...

Re:Michelin Airless by piva00 on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:34AM (#28875909)
That's a nice option to have, thanks for sharing. I used Gatorskins (Hardshell and the normal version) until the tread was gone the past couple of years. This year I fitted some Continental Grand Prix 4-Season that are holding pretty well against punctures.

Might give these Panaracers a try when the tread of the GP are gone (or if I start getting punctures but so far they are as impervious as the Gatorskins for me).

Re:Michelin Airless by ctime on Thursday October 14, 2021 @06:25PM (#28871014)
Continental Gatorskin brand tires have worked really well in my experience, easily many thousands of miles. They usually age out (2 years or so) before I've had any flat. I have had snakebite flats though which is usually just due to low air pressure or bad tubes. Tubes can just suck. I've combined them with puncture resistant tubes (thicker tubes) and never had a flat, using 700x25 or 700x28 versions.

https://www.continental-tires.com/bicycle/tires/race-tires/g...

Re:Michelin Airless by King-Aaron on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:25AM (#28875581)
I was put onto Gatorskins by a friend around ten years ago, and have never looked back. Great tyre with fantastic grip and lifespan.
Re:Michelin Airless by xmcqdpt2 on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:54AM (#28876404)
They are really solid, last forever and are quite light for a non racing tire. They also have decently low rolling resistance when inflated high.

However, in my experience they are really sketchy in wet conditions. I've wiped out or almost did multiple times on gatorskins. Deflating them in wet conditions works but the rolling resistance is then quite high.

I've found that the Schwalbe Marathons in wider sizes (I think I got 38s?) are much more confidence inspiring and comfortable, and makes up for the fact that I have to change a flat twice a year instead of once a year.

Re:Michelin Airless by King-Aaron on Sunday October 17, 2021 @08:15PM (#28900911)
Oh yeah, I've had some extremely solid wipeouts in the wet on mine, but then again I usually just attribute that more to me being a hooligan on the bike more than the tires :P
Re:Michelin Airless by hazza_n_dazza on Sunday October 17, 2021 @08:39PM (#28901068)
My Marathons are nice and fast, but slippery on the curves and I'd watch out in the rain
Re:Michelin Airless by gambiting on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:44PM (#28869830)
How about just regular Schwalbe Marathons Plus? In my experience those tyres are literally unpuncturable(at the cost of a huge weight penalty).
Re:Michelin Airless by ch33zer on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:22PM (#28870320)
I rode across the country on a pair (two pairs actually, first set wore out) of marathon pluses. I got 1 flat from a metal staple, which is pretty good for 4200 miles :D
Re:Michelin Airless by justinator on Thursday October 14, 2021 @08:54PM (#28872471)
These are great tires, but the rolling resistance can absolutely be felt. They do suffer in grip in wet conditions as well.
Re:Michelin Airless by xmcqdpt2 on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:58AM (#28876434)
The non-Plus Marathons are quite nice, but less puncture-proof.

You can't really win, the stiffer the tire the better it is at protecting the tube but the rolling resistance is higher and the tire flexes less which makes it less grippy.

Re:Michelin Airless by gambiting on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:36AM (#28877050)
Weirdly, it's actual black magic - the regular Marathons have the lowest rolling resistance of any touring tyre[0](lower than Schwalbe's own Marathon Racer lol), despite being very good at puncture proofing and not being completely slick. No idea how Schwalbe has actually done it.

[0] https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews/schwal...

Re:Michelin Airless by zikduruqe on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:45AM (#28877119)
> Schwalbe (garbage).

I have never read these two words in the same sentence. I've put thousands upon thousands of miles on my Schwalbe Marathons with nary a flat. Granted, nothing is 100%, but I find Schwalbe's a solid urban/touring choice.

Re:Michelin Airless by serf on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:32AM (#28877495)
same experience here. 'Schwalbe Marathon Plus' are the only pneumatic tires I have used on a wheelchair that last more than a few weeks of hard abuse.
Re:Michelin Airless by interfixus on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:30PM (#28873893)
Tannus too soft? I've had mine for a year and a summer, and really couldn't be happier. If anything, I find them a tad on the hard side. This is an ordinary, oldfashioned pushbike with medium-width tyres.
Re:Michelin Airless by glennpratt on Thursday October 14, 2021 @07:25PM (#28871582)
I was regularly getting flats with a new to me road bike.

I switched to Continental Grand Prix 4 Season and haven't had a flat in 2 years in Portland, OR (though my frequency is down with the pandemic).

Re:Michelin Airless by abyssin on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:12AM (#28874547)
Schwalbe Marathon Mondial are incredibly durable tyres. Never had a single flat in at least 20,000 km on them.
Re:Michelin Airless by arghwhat on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:03PM (#28866137)
A lot of heavy equipment drives around with water-filled tires, so it's already there. Definitely not what you meant though.
Re:Michelin Airless by xxpor on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:18PM (#28866315)
Hmm, why water filled? I can't think of any advantages, but can think of downsides such as a massive increase in unsprung weight.
Re:Michelin Airless by throwaway0a5e on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:22PM (#28866353)
Ballast for increased traction and tipping capacity with the positive side effect of lower COG.
Re:Michelin Airless by xxpor on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:28PM (#28866424)
Ah! That's a good idea.
Re:Michelin Airless by jet_32951 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:46PM (#28866648)
The only springs on most tractors - ancient or modern - are between the seat and the frame to which it is affixed. IOW the vast majority of the tractor's total weight is unsprung.
Re:Michelin Airless by beauzero on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:32PM (#28867325)
Its easier to let the water out of a tractor tire than to take a 500lb wheel plate off...when changing a tire.

...added weight is for better traction. Almost all 2WD tractors will have their back tires filled with a water/radiator fluid mixture (ice doesn't work well if you want to keep the tire on the rim).

Re:Michelin Airless by handrous on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:33PM (#28866487)
Water's basically incompressible, if some Michael Crichton book I read like 25 years ago is to be believed.

My guess would be one or more of: the above; greater heat capacity; or, something to do with surface area vs. volume meaning that at a large enough size water in a tire is far lower-pressure and easier to contain than air at a high enough pressure to keep it inflated, and/or, relatedly, something to do with heat dissipation from compressing gasses being really hard to deal with once you hit a certain surface-to-volume ratio.

[EDIT] LOL, guess all these were wrong and it's just for the extra weight.

Re:Michelin Airless by 1-more on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:54PM (#28867615)
The book was Sphere. It rocked. I too remember this fact just from that.
Re:Michelin Airless by xmcqdpt2 on Friday October 15, 2021 @07:03AM (#28876474)
which was made into a movie

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_(1998_film)

that is confusingly similar to The Abyss,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Abyss

I always get the two confused.

Re:Michelin Airless by erik_landerholm on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:22PM (#28866358)
Re:Michelin Airless by LeifCarrotson on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:34PM (#28866506)
It's a lot better than the calcium chloride that they used to use, when a telehandler blew out a tire and drained hundreds of pounds of saltwater into my parents' lawn a few years ago it did a lot of damage.
Re:Michelin Airless by throwaway0a5e on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:05PM (#28867749)
Beet juice is soooooooo much better for the environment than the salts it is replacing. Unfortunately it is slightly more expensive so we get to continue poisoning our waterways with salts.
Re:Michelin Airless by fergbrain on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:22PM (#28866355)
Re:Michelin Airless by bluGill on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:09PM (#28866997)
The only time they move fast enough to worry about unspung weight is when they are on a trailer.

That isn't strictly true, but in general such equipment spends most of it time moving very slowly it it moves at all. Transports speeds do become a problem, but that is only done for a short time (or you have it on a trailer so you can go faster) so nobody worries about the issue.

Re:Michelin Airless by dboreham on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:04PM (#28867743)
Nothing is sprung on a wheel loader or a scaper.
Re:Michelin Airless by kazinator on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:54PM (#28867606)
A disadvantage is that only the rubber absorbs impacts, since the fluid is incompressible for all intents and purposes.
Re:Michelin Airless by robocat on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:39PM (#28868972)
The tyre is only partially filled (for example 40%) with water - so the tyre is not “incompressible”. https://salesmanual.deere.com/sales/salesmanual/en_NA/tracto...
Re:Michelin Airless by kazinator on Thursday October 14, 2021 @06:01PM (#28870764)
I see. Furthermore, there is an admonishment:

IMPORTANT: Never fill any tire to more than 90% full. More solution could damage tire.

Re:Michelin Airless by cat199 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:56PM (#28868419)
... but for 'intensive purposes' on the other hand the story is less clear
Re:Michelin Airless by dboreham on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:05PM (#28867756)
Sometimes foam is used rather than water.
Re:Michelin Airless by legulere on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:36PM (#28867381)
Also trains drive around with solid metal tires.
Re:Michelin Airless by throwaway0a5e on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:03PM (#28867731)
Trains have the benefit of exceptionally smooth "roads"
Re:Michelin Airless by bkanber on Thursday October 14, 2021 @10:59AM (#28865185)
At some point they will be viable... whether this is that point or not is yet to be seen.
Re:Michelin Airless by OnlineGladiator on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:58AM (#28866077)
> At some point they will be viable

Why do you assume this?

Re:Michelin Airless by gregoriol on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:08PM (#28866196)
Because at some point we used wood for wheels?
Re:Michelin Airless by dahfizz on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:43PM (#28866619)
How does wood --> inflated rubber imply inflated rubber--> airless rubber? I don't see any logic in that.
Re:Michelin Airless by _jal on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:41PM (#28866597)
You can still use wood if you want.

Many of the reasons you don't are the same reasons airless tires have not escaped niches.

Re:Michelin Airless by bserge on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:34PM (#28869680)
Hmm, not the worst idea. But who makes wood tires for bikes nowadays? And oh God, the splinters :D
Re:Michelin Airless by JAlexoid on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:43PM (#28866613)
We still do use wood for wheels... So...
Re:Michelin Airless by bkanber on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:17PM (#28867117)
Because this is primarily a materials science problem, and we are still novices at materials science.
Re:Michelin Airless by rightbyte on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:45PM (#28867496)
There does not have to exist a solid material with the properties of a gas.
Re:Michelin Airless by bkanber on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:56PM (#28867643)
What? I don't understand what you mean by that.
Re:Michelin Airless by OnlineGladiator on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:22PM (#28867971)
There's no reason to assume this is a solvable problem, just because it's a new field. I remember when cold fusion was considered inevitable.

You don't actually have any reason to assume it will happen other than blind optimism.

Re:Michelin Airless by bkanber on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:06PM (#28868569)
... you don't actually have any reason to assume it won't happen other than blind pessimism. So let's just agree to disagree.
Re:Michelin Airless by OnlineGladiator on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:18PM (#28868723)
I love to disagree because I'm a betting man. Want to wager some money on a bet? Pick a timeline (5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years) and maybe we can make this fun!
Re:Michelin Airless by bkanber on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:28PM (#28869589)
lol. No bet. Not because I doubt my position (I see an aerogel-inspired material working out). Rather because the 50 year timeline that I would feel safe betting on is basically my end-of-life. I'm not really interested in paying out a longbets.org payment on my deathbed.
Re:Michelin Airless by rightbyte on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:15PM (#28870223)
As he said, more or less. Sorry for being cryptic.

"There's no reason to assume this is a solvable problem"

Re:Michelin Airless by hollander on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:33PM (#28866496)
I use nitro oxygen in my tyres. Pressure problems are gone.
Re:Michelin Airless by dsr_ on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:44PM (#28866623)
The Earth's atmosphere is about 80% nitrogen and a little less than 20% oxygen, with some carbon dioxide, argon, variable amounts of water vapor, and some pollution.

What's "nitro oxygen", then?

Re:Michelin Airless by bkanber on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:38PM (#28867406)
My guess is parent comment misspoke and meant pure nitrogen -- which does indeed help with tire pressure. The ideal gas law still applies, so there will be seasonal changes in pressure, but there will be much less exfiltration (via 'permeation', specifically) of gas through the material (N2 has a larger 'kinetic diameter' than O2; O2 will permeate 3-4x faster through rubber than N2).
Re:Michelin Airless by checker on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:59PM (#28867687)
So if regular air is 80% nitrogen already, won't the tires move towards 100% nitrogen with each top off since the tires will be retaining the nitrogen more than the oxygen? Sounds like a marketing trick unless they're filling newly mounted tires with 100% nitrogen.
Re:Michelin Airless by bkanber on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:13PM (#28867849)
That's a pretty clever thought in general, but yours is only a first approximation.

First, permeation decreases with pressure, at different rates for the two gases. If you consider only this fact you will find that the partial pressures of O2 and N2 asymptotically approach homeostasis, rather than simply all the O2 leaving and all the N2 remaining.

Second, permeability changes with temperature, so the ratio of O2 and N2 exfiltration rate changes seasonally, as each gas has a different permeability-vs-temperature curve. Third, the ideal gas law causes pressure changes seasonally which will also decrease exfiltration in winter, and once again, each gas will have its own permeability-vs-pressure curve, so these become very confounding factors.

All in all, the reality of the situation is that filling up your tires with atmospheric air will probably settle on partial pressure ratios of, say, 85/15 rather than 100/0. The deflation that you get comes from only about 5% of the O2 leaving the tire; and of course you get another big deflation when the weather first turns cold.

I don't know the exact numbers because I've frankly never thought to look into this before. So like I said, it was a clever thought! But it needed to be taken a few steps further.

Re:Michelin Airless by checker on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:33PM (#28868102)
Thanks! I love getting answers like this from the community.
Re:Michelin Airless by bananapear on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:23PM (#28867215)
Maybe just nitrogen? Costco inflates tyres with nitrogen. The pair of tyres on my vehicle inflated with nitrogen don’t seem to lose pressure, the other two need topping up occasionally.
Re:Michelin Airless by throwaway0a5e on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:06PM (#28867771)
That's the point. He's being sarcastic and calling "atmospheric air" "nitro oxygen"
Re:Michelin Airless by marcosdumay on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:34PM (#28868120)
I imagine it's a joke on people that use nitrogen.
Re:Michelin Airless by dylan604 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:17PM (#28867123)
https://www.tireamerica.com/resource/nitrogen-vs-oxygen-for-...

That at least helps with some of the logic. However, doesn't directly answer what "nitro oxygen" is. Guessing some sort of slang. It's definitely not a scientific phrase. Nitrogen oxide or something maybe too much for grease monkies so they call it nitro oxygen??? just guessing.