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Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by mjevans on Friday October 01, 2021 @10:57PM (#28725533)
The price of everything, from my perspective, has gone insane within the last few months.

I would __much__ rather the market were satisfied with more houses, apartments, everything such that people could afford to live places and thus inflation / stagflation weren't the natural result of everyone trying to get ahead and increasing just their own wage.

All of the other aspects of the jobs, such as safety conditions and work assignments are also important; but the cost of living, healthcare, everything, is also an underlying factor.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by sandworm101 on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:26PM (#28725687)
That would be basic supply and demand, but I think we are beyond that. Demand for the product (housing) has moved beyond basic consumers (people who want to live in them). Real estate is now a primary investment vehicle. So building more doesn't necessarily mean more houses for people to live in. Rather it will mean more investment opportunities for people seeking to move money into a "safe" asset. That is the cycle we need to break. Real estate needs to become a less stable investment vehicle. Then we can start lowering prices by building more houses.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by droptablemain on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:35PM (#28725728)
The state needs to build a slew of affordable housing. I think the market has shown quite clearly it's ill-equipped to deal with the problem. Housing needs to be built for the purpose of housing people rather than the purpose of making profit.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by Gustomaximus on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:17AM (#28725919)
State housing has a place, but I think they really need to fix the demand side of investors. There should be significant deterant to holding residential property in large scale. While options are varied I think a progressive asset tax of total property owned. Something like 0.5% per million starting on the second million. Maybe some principle place of residence reduction. So most people can have a house even a second/third house without occuring holding tax but you stop people sitting on $10m+ in residential property, which is quite a low threshold really. And stop investors dropping billion plus amounts into the market. Then some rule about top marginal rate for obscured ownership like overseas owners and trusts etc to stop shenanigans there.

It comes down to that line about residential property has to be good for residents or good for investors, you can't have both.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by fartingflamingo on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:54AM (#28726066)
First home? 3% real estate transaction tax, or 1% if renovating up to high energy savings specs.

Any other home? 12% real estate transaction tax.

That's roughly how it works in the Flanders region of Belgium from 2022.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by nightski on Saturday October 02, 2021 @05:00PM (#28732031)
Many people want and/or need to rent. How would this not just drive up rent 9%
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by Guest42 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:38AM (#28726005)
Agree, and would propose increased property taxes for amount of time a property is empty, I think this would increase liquidity in rental markets.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by 8note on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:55AM (#28726071)
Even if it's being rented, I think the tax should still be there. We want people to own the places they live in
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by simfree on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:44PM (#28725774)
The state building affordable and midrange housing does have precedent in Finland, where municipal employees build the majority of homes, leaving the upper mid-range and high end homes to be built by private developers.

They do tightly manage where each type of residence is built, from what I hear the goal is to avoid the creation of exclusively wealthy or poor neighborhoods as their existence damages society.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by reducesuffering on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:51PM (#28725813)
The market has shown it's ill-equiped? I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

There are zoning codes everywhere, environmental review, city permits, etc, that the small amount of successful projects will of course be the minimal low hanging fruit. Literally all of this problem is "the state."

Let people build buildings on their own land. It will supply far more housing than any state backed affordable housing and will break the housing-as-investment pitfall by breaking the supply-constraint that causes people to treat it that way.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by sandworm101 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:11AM (#28725893)
>> Let people build buildings on their own land.

All land is owned subject to the laws that govern its potential uses. Land that is open to more uses is more valuable than land that is not. Land that can be subdivided is worth more than land that cannot. Allowing people to build more houses on "their own land" is a wonderful gift to land owners. It increases the value of their property. But that exacerbates the problem. A trend towards greater freedom to develop real estate means it is, yet again, only a more attractive investment vehicle.

Rather than "let them build", perhaps we should consider "thou shalt build" or "thou shalt rent". Laws that demand certain real estate owners do X or Y could not only increase the number of rental units but also diminish the attractiveness of unoccupied or unused real estate as an investment vehicle.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by ajmurmann on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:45AM (#28726027)
If you want to diminish attractiveness of unused land, a land tax might help. Much better than the state trying to micromanage what gets done. Just set the right incentive structure.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:42AM (#28726016)
Um, people building more houses means more supply which means lower prices. Nobody has yet managed to repeal the law of supply and demand.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by adgjlsfhk1 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:00AM (#28726099)
The problem is that in high demand areas, it can be profitable for people to buy property purely as speculation without ever having people live there.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by reducesuffering on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:06AM (#28726121)
As I pointed out earlier, this problem is solved by adding building supply to balance out the supply-demand imbalance causing property to appreciate and be a source of speculation. No one will "invest" in real estate if adequate supply causes no price increases. Any ad-hoc state involved bandaids like rent-control, foreign ownership laws, etc. are unnecessary.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by bluefirebrand on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:31AM (#28726220)
Land and Real Estate has other aspects of the demand aside from just "a roof over your head" though. Location and other factors play into it in a big way. For instance if you have a parcel of undeveloped land at a lakeshore, the supply isn't "all land available in the region", it's "All land along that lakeshore" which is a much smaller supply. And lakes are generally a desirable place to live, so the demand is likely high.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by reducesuffering on Saturday October 02, 2021 @02:10AM (#28726374)
It doesn't really matter that there are exceptions where some areas are naturally more desirable because land isn't fungible. What matters is that there are available housing units approaching the limit of construction cost pricing so that people can have a place to live without being affected by luxuries like "wanting a lakefront home."
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by bluefirebrand on Saturday October 02, 2021 @02:32PM (#28730866)
My point isn't that there aren't some exceptions it's that there are tons, maybe literally hundreds or thousands of factors into the supply/demand equation here.

what kind of internet is available in the area? How close are you to grocery stores? Is there a HOA that you have to pay dues to? What's the weather like? Is the home up to date or is the wiring and plumbing likely to need a lot of work? How big is the lot? How walkable is the neighbourhood? Is it near a smelly dump? What's the crime rate like? What are the schools in the area like, how close are they? How much access is there to transit?

It's not as simple as just "Build more housing" society also has to adequately service the people who want to live in that housing. If our lower income housing is all just bare minimum roof over your head and no access to anything then no one will want to live there, which also means that supply will not affect the demand on housing that has better access to amenities.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by reducesuffering on Monday October 04, 2021 @12:11AM (#28742967)
Internet infrastructure, closeness to grocery stores, homes being up to date, walk-ability, close schools, access to transit, are all improved by building more dense housing.

We can also be quite certain that providing the bare minimum housing pulls in demand from those more luxurious options (wants) to the more economically practical option (needs), because the bare minimum option was never available. We'd be giving people more choices and at least some would take it.

Then if you have so many people that "demand" a certain standard of luxury housing, then they will have to compete and pay the premiums for the actual limited resources like lakefront property or great schools (living near other like-minded wealthier people). That's the realities of scarce resources, and is fine, since there's not much we can improve there. But the major gap is providing the bare minimum of housing which we are currently not doing.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by ac29 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @03:07PM (#28731107)
How do you add building supply when there is no undeveloped land? There are no empty lots in high demand areas.

You'd have to increase density, and most places it will be difficult to displace people from their homes to tear them down and redevelop them.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by nightski on Saturday October 02, 2021 @05:02PM (#28732049)
Make other areas more attractive?
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by colordrops on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:11AM (#28725896)
It's a common fallacy to look at a heavily regulated market and blame "the market" in general. What makes it worse is supposed "free market" advocates that instead selectively deregulate in their favor. But the market can be corrected by selectively deregulating in favor of the disadvantaged too. It just doesnt happen very often due to the nature of the of the people in power.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by 8note on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:58AM (#28726090)
The market will always favour the advantaged. Correcting that out means getting rid of the market
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by dragonwriter on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:15AM (#28725912)
> But the market can be corrected by selectively deregulating in favor of the disadvantaged too.

Only to the extent that existing regulation favors the advantaged more than the market naturally does, which tends to make that approach quite limited in potential.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by droptablemain on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:49AM (#28726294)
"The market has shown it's ill-equiped? I don't know how you came to that conclusion."

Well, we could start with the fact that there are roughly 25 empty housing units in the U.S. for every homeless person.

Housing a very basic human need.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by m0zg on Saturday October 02, 2021 @02:53AM (#28726567)
Better yet, the state needs to get out of the way of the private sector building things and let it create more supply. A friend of mine wanted to tear down and rebuild an old house he bought. Spent a year and a half trying to obtain all the permits and gave up. And that's a regular house on a plot of land that he already owns, the "easy" case. You can imagine what kind of insane bureaucratic hoops one would need to jump through to build anything that's "affordable" and therefore a little bit unconventional. My house tripled in value in 10 years. There's simply no way a glorified wooden box costs $2M. The "state" (and the restriction of supply) is the reason why.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by refurb on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:00AM (#28725853)
The market is ill-equipped? Prior government interventions in housing are driving most of the price inflation and investment.

Every time they come up with a new way to help people buy houses they just further drive up the price.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by cscurmudgeon on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:29AM (#28725967)
> I think the market has shown quite clearly it's ill-equipped to deal with the problem

  1. Step one: Prevent market from functioning through excessive regulation 
  2. Step two: Blame the market
Edit:

Step 3: Downvote and run away

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by TeeMassive on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:48PM (#28725790)
> The state needs to build a slew of affordable housing.

These have never worked and are full of pervert effects. It's at best a band aid.

> I think the market has shown quite clearly it's ill-equipped to deal with the problem.

> I think the market has shown quite clearly it's ill-equipped to deal with the problem. Housing needs to be built for the purpose of housing people rather than the purpose of making profit.

That's a cool political slogan, however nobody will build a housing without a profit and nobody is entitled to other people's labor.

Making sure that houses are not left empty and sane zoning rules are more likely to result in viable changes. Absurdly low interest rates are also to blame.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by foerbert on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:00AM (#28725854)
You started by dismissing the proposed solution out of hand and then went on to attack a strawman.

You do end with a couple ideas of your own, but overall I find this comment more disingenuous than not.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by TeeMassive on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:55AM (#28726070)
I merely pointed obvious problems in your argument. Then your reply to my comment make accusations but has no substantive explanations at all, which also means it can be dismissed as such.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by foerbert on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:13PM (#28733693)
It wasn't my argument. I was explaining why I downvoted your comment, which I probably should have been more clear about.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by chmsky00 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:22AM (#28726181)
Supply and demand took a back seat to hoarding assets to prop up investor value.

Taken literally the government is engaged in class warfare by forcing the public to engage in labor for private enterprise to prosper.

America is effectively a caste system, abstracting a persons value into a net worth, focused on gossip, and gaming semantics, very similarly to religious tribes.

Murder rates have come down generally speaking, over the centuries.

The cycle we need to break is letting millions starve and go homeless. We refuse to see it as equivalent to other human atrocities political capture by selfish, bitter men and women.

We need a pivot to new core values entirely. My preference would be along the lines of prioritizing biological/medical health of individuals and setting aside superfluous economic activity. But good luck passing laws favored by the public (polling has shown a majority support universal healthcare for years now).

Work stoppages will force austerity on aristocrats. History is pretty clear that’s what it takes to move the needle politically.

Gaming house prices is, to borrow Greers area/perimeter metaphor for programming, hacking the area of the established perimeter.

Futurists have been predicting collapse of nation states and a re-emergence of the city-state by 2050 for a while now. Often leaning on environmental concern and the lack of Federal exigency to tackle the problem. Perhaps they’re onto something.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by bryondowd on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:33PM (#28725721)
Don't most investment homes rely on tenants to offset the maintenance and tax costs of owning the home? Construct enough to meet demand for places to live and the rental market should drop, which would hurt the home-as-investment model, which in turn should bring down home prices, right?
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by sandworm101 on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:40PM (#28725751)
Not these days. In hot markets (Vancouver, SF etc) real estate tends to appreciate faster than rent. Having a tenant in a property, along with all the associated rights and obligations, makes a property more difficult to develop or sell. Once upon a time a rental unit with a good tenant was worth more than one without. These days you need to get the tenant out in order to refit and show the property to prospective buyers. Unless an owner plans to keep the property unimproved for many years, having a long-term tenant is just an inconvenience.

Yearly rent is generally going to be about 1/20th the total value of the property. So if the owner plans on doing anything to improve the value of the property by more than 5% in a given year, that improvement process is worth more than having a tenant. In a market like Vancouver, where rent-to-cost ratios are even lower, a tenant paying rent is almost irrelevant in the equation.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:46AM (#28726035)
> along with all the associated rights and obligations

Government regulation (again) exacerbates this problem. In Seattle, landlords have to give 6 months notice for rent increases. They also are obliged to pay the tenant's relocation costs when the tenant leaves. They can't evict tenants who don't pay rent. Seattle will provide free lawyers to tenants who want to sue their landlords.

So, yeah, if the real estate market is rising fast enough, it's best to not rent it.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by adgjlsfhk1 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:04AM (#28726115)
Right because in a "free market" tenants have no rights. Moving costs a minimum of 1 day of work, which is not available to many working people. As such, without laws to prevent it, landlords could arbitrarily raise rents whenever they felt like it.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:13AM (#28726150)
> in a "free market" tenants have no rights.

Their rights are what is mutually agreed upon in the rental agreement.

> without laws to prevent it, landlords could arbitrarily raise rents whenever they felt like it.

Many rental contracts have clauses specifying when and how much the rent can change.

Landlords can demand whatever they want, but a tenant would have to agree to it. Tenants can also demand whatever they want, but the landlord would have to agree. That's supply & demand at work.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by adgjlsfhk1 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @10:32AM (#28728851)
contacts only work because we don't live in a few market. without regulation, a contract is just a piece of paper
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @02:05PM (#28730618)
Contracts are not regulations. But the government provides contract enforcement, which is an essential part of a free market.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by davidw on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:52AM (#28726055)
> Real estate is now a primary investment vehicle. So building more doesn't necessarily mean more houses

It says right in the SEC filings that places that build enough housing are a threat to the investments of companies like Blackrock.

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22524829/wall-street-housin...

It's a good investment because we don't build enough homes.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:40AM (#28726011)
> So building more doesn't necessarily mean more houses for people to live in.

Of course it does. I know that some people buy homes and let them sit vacant, but that's a transitory state. A home has no value if it is not being used. To realize its value, it must be sold to someone who will live in it.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by 8note on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:53AM (#28726064)
It has to be sold to somebody who while buy it*

They don't have to live in it either, just sell it to somebody else who will buy it

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by onion2k on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:48AM (#28726036)
Real estate can be a store of value. It needs to be sold to liquidate the money tied up in it, but that could be years in the future. Having it sit empty until then doesn't stop the investment from working.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:54AM (#28726069)
Vacant real estate can be quite a drain on your money. Vacant houses, for example, attract squatters, thieves and vandals. They still cost property taxes, insurance, upkeep, and your time.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by onion2k on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:04AM (#28727418)
If you buy a $5m house in a place where the property prices double in 10 years (eg some parts of London), it can still be worthwhile no matter what else happens.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @02:10PM (#28730665)
It's even more worthwhile to collect rent on it for 10 years. How much rent can you accrue in 10 years on a posh $5m house?

A price doubling in 10 years is only a 7% rate of return, which is below what the stock market in the US averages.

(Prices may double, but you've got inflation, taxes, insurance, vandalism, theft, maintenance expenses, and non-trivial amounts of your time in the meantime. None of this is free.)

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by silisili on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:43PM (#28725772)
Housing is the big factor. When it went insane, people who were on the edge of being able to afford housing got forced out. That was a whole lot of people. And when you lose your dream, what's the point of trying anymore?
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by dehrmann on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:03AM (#28726109)
> When it went insane, people who were on the edge of being able to afford housing got forced out. That was a whole lot of people.

It's the same pool of buyers and the same pool of houses, so no one's really getting forced out. If they were all so close, prices would jump as soon as they start buying. It's only interesting if the increase brings a lot more investors to the market.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by silisili on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:05AM (#28726117)
What? No, it's not. Forced out meaning forced out of the potential buying a house market, not forced out as in evicted. I know because my brother was one of them.

He's been saving for 6 years to finally buy a house on a 45k a year salary in what was a LCOL area, and now he's forced out. Living with our mom, and basically gave up.

The buyers are all the haves, and corporations. The have-nots got forced out.

I make enough, and can afford things. But I'm not blind to the problems of the everyman, and none of us should be. They outnumber us 4 or more to 1.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by djd8d637yehd on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:02AM (#28725864)
Thank zoning regulations and the entirety of the green crowd from the clinate activists to the animal rights groups. Nothing that hasn't been replaced is more expensive to produce now than in the past. Regulations motivated by classist priorities are the reason costs aren't able to be pushed back down.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by spaetzleesser on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:21PM (#28725657)
" such as safety conditions and work assignments are also important"

These are very important, probably more than anything else, if you actually work in these jobs. They make your life miserable.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:38AM (#28726004)
> inflation / stagflation weren't the natural result of everyone trying to get ahead and increasing just their own wage.

Inflation / stagflation are the result of supply&demand forces just like everything else in an economy. Inflation happens when the supply of money increases faster than the value it represents.

Guess what has been happening with the supply of money when the government prints trillions of dollars to rain down on the economy. All that cash sloshing around just devalues the dollar, and hence prices rise.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by willis936 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:39AM (#28726007)
A $2000 check is why everything costs 20% more forever?
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:44AM (#28726022)
I think it is possible that to be running so close to boundary conditions that a sudden shock to the system can catalyze outsize changes. Not necessarily $2k, but a confluence of factors, especially if they have knock on effects that compound.

Labor in the US has been losing ground for decades, I always wondered how long the situation was tenable.

Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by WalterBright on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:49AM (#28726038)
There's a lot more than that flooding in.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by Guthur on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:44AM (#28726023)
How many checks and how much low interest debt, how many tax breaks and increased social care spending? All of it feeds in.
Re:Wave of US labor unrest could see tens of thousands on st... by spamtarget on Saturday October 02, 2021 @04:00PM (#28731552)
So basically: shut up because your fight for your right is inconvenient for me at the moment, right?