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Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by kdumont on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:08AM (#28593381)
Thanks, Jupiter!

Jupiter is thought to be one of the reasons earth is so hospitable, with its high gravity protecting inner planets from some comets and space debris [1].

I, for one, think we need a Jupiter appreciation day.

https://earthsky.org/space/is-it-true-that-jupiter-protects-...

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by drhagen on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:27AM (#28593543)
Given that Western civilization worshiped Jupiter as top god for a thousand years, you would be in good company historically [1] to have have a Jupiter appreciation day.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)#Religious_...

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:58AM (#28595238)
The sky father was the chief god of the steppe people that lived north of the Black and Caspian Seas during the Neolithic into the Bronze Age, so 'Jupiter' as such was worshiped for 2000 years before the Greek speakers called him that.

As these people (according to all the currently most accepted archaeological and linguistic evidence) are the ancestral culture of most of Europe, Iran, and India (with the exception of the native Dravidians), it makes sense the Greeks as well as most of the religions of Europe and southwest Asia also worshipped him.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by throwaway894345 on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:40PM (#28595717)
The etymology of Jupiter is also fascinating. https://www.etymonline.com/word/jupiter

> also Juppiter, c. 1200, "supreme deity of the ancient Romans," from Latin Iupeter, Iupiter, Iuppiter, "Jove, god of the sky and chief of the gods," from PIE dyeu-peter- "god-father" (originally vocative, "the name naturally occurring most frequently in invocations" [Tucker]), from deiw-os "god" (from root *dyeu- "to shine," in derivatives "sky, heaven, god") + peter "father" in the sense of "male head of a household" (see father (n.)).

Greek and Sanskrit also had similar deities:

> Compare Greek Zeu pater, vocative of Zeus pater "Father Zeus;" Sanskrit Dyaus pitar "heavenly father."

Basically the Greeks dropped the `-pater` bit and `Zeus` remained.

Whether or not these deities were similarly associated with the planet Jupiter is a different question though.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:56PM (#28595943)
> Whether or not these deities were similarly associated with the planet Jupiter is a different question though.

Very doubtful, those names are modern applications to the planet. Although, there is zero doubt they were aware of and cognizant of the visible planets and their motions and no doubt had important names for them, it wasn't what western astronomers called them, almost certainly.

Also Dyaus Pater was a god of the daylight sky for the most part, which in the steppes, as you can imagine, made him pretty important and omnipresent.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by scns on Monday September 20, 2021 @02:39PM (#28597201)
Hm, Jove and Yahwe are pretty close i'd say.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by ithkuil on Monday September 20, 2021 @03:56PM (#28598142)
We have no idea how the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH is supposed to be pronounced. And there are no etymological common roots between this semitic root and the attested Indo-European origin of Iove.

It's possible that the Yahweh vocalization has been influenced by the Roman Catholic church in order to "romanize" christianity

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by pigscantfly on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:11PM (#28596120)
I've been researching these cultural echoes of the Proto Indo-Europeans online for some time now; it's fascinating that over a billion people (Catholics, etc.) use roughly the same term 'Deus Pater' to describe their supreme deity up through the modern day without full cognizance of the concept's historical roots. Sky father worship may be the most highly conserved human cultural idea of all time.

Do you have any suggestions for reading material (ideally academic in book form) that covers the archaeological and/or linguistic reconstruction research in depth?

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @02:03PM (#28596751)
The best accessible archaeology reference I can recommend is "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language", and that book can guide you to many other resources.(https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691148182/th...)

Though the research is a tad dated since we have more genetic evidence since it was written, and there are many disputes about the author's assertions about the timing of the advent of horse riding, it still stands up very well. AFAIK the genetic research made since the book's publication has only strengthened his archaeological and linguistic arguments.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by pigscantfly on Monday September 20, 2021 @02:09PM (#28596828)
Thank you very much! I will order it.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by jsjohnst on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:02PM (#28599593)
Doesn't exactly fit your request, but maybe consider reading the book Suns of God too:

https://www.amazon.com/Suns-God-Krishna-Buddha-Unveiled/dp/1...

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by ducktective on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:12PM (#28595401)
I think by steppe people, you are referring to Indo-Europeans (Aryans). There is also a sky-god in Tengrism (Mongols, Turks). But are either of those actually referring to the planet Jupiter?
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:20PM (#28595495)
Nah, the naming of the planet came much later, I don't think the planet itself was ever worshipped.

And the Proto-Indo-Europeans are not the Aryans - the Aryans were a much later daughter culture in Western Afghanistan, Northern Iran and India, and probably the folks that had the beliefs outlined in the first pages of the Rig Veda.

The steppe people I am referring to are the people of the Yamnaya culture and related peoples within their horizon. The Mongols and Turks were relative late comers to the western steppes.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by throwaway894345 on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:43PM (#28595768)
Pretty sure "Aryans" is a 19th and 20th century term used for the Indo-Europeans (or roughly approximating "Indo-Europeans"), hence the association of "Aryan" and 20th century race ideology (e.g., theories of an "Aryan homeland" was in Germany, that the Germans were a pure Aryan race, etc).
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:50PM (#28595868)
The racialists of the late 19th Century and early 20th co-opted the term, but there was a real peoples that really called themselves 'Aryans'. They weren't blue eyed blonde-haired, that's for sure, and the weren't at the root of Europe either. Like I said, they were a central Asian daughter culture. They probably spoke Indo-Iranian and their beliefs were later written down in the Riga Veda as well as being a component of Iranian Zoroastrianism.

('Aryan' is cognate with the proto-Indo-European 'h₂éyos')

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by throwaway894345 on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:35PM (#28596384)
I agree, I wasn't disputing that there were real people who self-identified with the term, I was contesting your correction that "Aryan" solely refers to these people. You might counter that the overloaded meaning is invalid for whatever reason, but (1) meanings of the propriety of words are boring and subjective and (2) I'm only saying there exists an overloaded meaning, not that everyone will find it valid nor that it excludes the validity of other meanings.

As an aside, I recently discovered (from my new Iranian neighbors) that the term "Aryan" is cognate with "Iran" the country. "Iran" in Persian means something like "Land of the Aryans", and that in 1935 the government of Iran asked its diplomatic partners to refer to it as Iran instead of Persia because of the popularity of Aryan racial ideologies.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:57PM (#28596676)
Ah gotcha, yeah, the notion of the 'Aryans' as the ancestors of Europe was a common misconception of early European archaeology even when it didn't have the racist propaganda connections.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by fsckboy on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:28PM (#28596309)
> They weren't blue eyed blonde-haired, that's for sure

ok but the world-wide "suppress melanin/blue eyes" gene emerged in that same part of the world (north of the Black Sea) some 10,000 years ago, so it seems that the Aryans could have been as blue eyed as anybody.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091101055254/http://www.telegr...

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:56PM (#28596656)
well, possibly, but as they are probably the ancestors of many North Indian, Iranian, and Afghanistani peoples that gene didn't stay dominant for their line. (Though I guess it shows up in that region now and again).

And they certainly weren't the 'Aryan ideal' as pictured in racist propaganda.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by iKevinShah on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:47AM (#28593731)
In India, Jupiter is called as "guru" (Sanskrit:बृहस्पति). बृहस्पति roughly translates to "guru" of the gods.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by geoffjentry on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:46AM (#28595088)
Interesting. Is there any connection in Sanskrit for that word to Dyaus [1], as that deity was an equivalent of Zeus/Jupiter

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyaus

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by MonkeyClub on Monday September 20, 2021 @05:18PM (#28599132)
Isn't that Thursday every week?
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:48AM (#28595126)
Jupiter, along with Zeus, Tyr, and a whole host of others are cognate with the Proto-Indo-European *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr, literally 'sky father'.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by globular-toast on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:22AM (#28594784)
Not because they understood the gravity thing, though. I've always thought civilisations that worship the Sun have the right idea.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by osrec on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:37AM (#28593640)
So do many Eastern civilisations...
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by ohnohell on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:19AM (#28594050)
Ok...
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by phreack on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:28AM (#28593560)
I suggest Thursday!
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by osrec on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:36AM (#28593634)
In Hindu culture, Jupiter is known as Brihaspati, and Thursday is known as Brihaspati-var (the day dedicated to Jupiter).
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by macintux on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:33AM (#28593600)
Wouldn’t Wednesday (Woden’s Day) be more appropriate?
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by nicoburns on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:35AM (#28593621)
Thursday is literally named after jupiter in latin and latin based languages (french, spanish, etc)
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by globular-toast on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:31AM (#28594893)
All seven days of the week are named after the classical planets, or the Germanic/Norse equivalent of the Roman gods: Mercury (Wednesday, Woden/Odin's day), Venus (Friday, Frig's day), Mars (Tuesday, Tiw's day), Jupiter (Thursday, Thor's day), Saturn (Saturday), the Sun (Sunday), and the Moon (Monday). Some make more sense in other languages, e.g. French has Lundi (Lune/Moon), mardi (Mars), mercredi (Mercury), jôdi (Jupiter), vendredi (Venus) (samedi refers to the Sabbath and dimanche to God, though).
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by YeGoblynQueenne on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @04:57AM (#28603204)
The naming of the days of the week after the planets isn't obvious. The English names of days are taken from the old norse gods, as you say, but the association with the planets goes back to Roman times and it's rather obscure.

Here are the names of the days of the week and their associated planets (and the old norse gods that give them their English names, as you list them too):

  Monday    --> Moon (Moon's day)
  Tuesday   --> Mars (or Tyr's day) 
  Wednesday --> Mercury (Wodan's day)
  Thursday  --> Jupiter (Thor's day)
  Friday    --> Venus (Freya's day)
  Saturday  --> Saturn (duh)
  Sunday    --> Sun (and duh)
Why are the days associated with celestial bodies in that order? Mars is not between the moon and mercury, in the sky. Saturn is furthest, not closes to the sun! But this was not exactly known in ancient times. Rather, the luminaries (the sun, the moon and five planets) are ordered, in the Ptolemaic universe, according to their apparent speed in the night sky, from slowest to fastest, which the ancients took to mean corresponded to a planet's distance from the Earth (since the farthest-away planet had to make a longer orbit):

  Saturn
  Jupiter
  Mars
  the Sun
  Venus
  Mercury
  the Moon
But this is still not the order in which the days of the week are ordered, according to their association with a luminary. Saturn's day, Saturday, is not before Jupiter's day, Thursday, in the week!

The hidden detail is that the ancients regarded the luminaries as "ruling over" an hour of the day. Each day took the name of the luminary that ruled over its first day. So the first luminary, Saturn, the furthest from the Earth, ruled over the first hour of the first day of the week, which for the ancients was Saturday. The second luminary, Jupiter, ruled over the second hour and so on, for all 24 hours in a day, in a repeating cycle.

Since there were 7 luminaries, the cycle repeated three times in each 24-hour day, with 3 hours left over. When a new day began, the luminary that ruled over its first hour was the luminary three over from the one that ruled over the first hour of the previous day. So the day ruled over by the first luminary, Saturn, Saturday, is followed by the day ruled over by the luminary three over from Saturn, the Sun: Sunday.

To mess things up even more, the ancients had a second, "dark" day, and a dark week, where the days were named by the luminary that ruled over the first hour of nighttime (where the ordinary days were named after the luminary ruling over the first hour of daylight). So for instance, when the "light day" was Thursday, the "dark" day was Monday. The dark week starts on the 13th hour of each day (the 13th hour from sunrise). I have no idea how the ancients managed daylight savings time :P

Anyway our days of the week have a tinge of ancient astrological magic to them. Remember that to the ancients, astrology and astronomy were still the same thing. Our knowledge became more practical as time went by and less magickal. Or, like I like to say, we finally found a magic that works.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by cobbzilla on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:39AM (#28593659)
The Germanic Thursday is “Thor’s day”, I guess Jupiter is more like Thor than Odin/Woden.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by dkersten on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:57AM (#28594482)
Even "Thor's day" is linked to Jupiter, in that Thor and thunder gods were the equivalent of the thunder god Jupiter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thursday#Thor's_day
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by SirFatty on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:21AM (#28594078)
Old English/Norse.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by cobbzilla on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:31AM (#28594192)
to be more specific, yes. I was going with the least specific branch of the tree that was still different and widely recognizable.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by aylons on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:41AM (#28593684)
Ha, just now I realized "Jeudi"... lucky day today!

But just some romance languages. Portuguese does not.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by sillyquiet on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:51AM (#28595157)
Odin is not Zeus, although in he assumed a lot of Zeus's place in the Norse pantheon.

The mostly forgotten proto-Germanic god Tyr's name however is cognate with Zeus, Jupiter, Dyaus, and the other sky father gods.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by Chris2048 on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:23AM (#28594796)
I think Jupiter was also Zeus, but not AFAIK Odin.

https://www.ancient-literature.com/are-zeus-and-odin-the-sam...

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by obelos on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:17PM (#28595456)
Wednesday is the planetary day of Mercury, who is more cognate with Odin.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by mongol on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:56AM (#28595223)
I suggest Saturnday
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by meowface on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:19AM (#28593478)
Is that something people searching for ET life look out for? Systems with a potentially habitable planet + at least one large celestial object to draw debris towards it and away from the potentially habitable planet?
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by pc86 on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:28AM (#28593559)
Are we able to see far-away systems in this level of detail? I know we can calculate number of planets and rough size/makeup, but are we able to tell that Planet A is in the habitable zone and Planet B is 300x+ the mass of Planet A, etc?
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by LeifCarrotson on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:43AM (#28594319)
Yes, at least using the transit method.

Sometimes, we do use the Doppler shift caused by a planet pulling the star towards or away from us. That works as long as the orbital plane is not perfectly perpendicular to us. However, it only works for large planets (and reasonably sized stars) that have sufficient gravity to make the star move fast enough to see the light shift red or blue. An earth-mass planet would be undetectable compared to a Jovian planet.

The transit method requires the orbital plane to be perfectly on axis so we can observe an eclipse as the planet passes between the star and our telescope. This is rare, but works for even small planets, as long as the angle is right. And if one angle is right, it's likely that others will be close enough as well; a large planet can also be observed. In systems that are at the right angle, Kepler often found several planets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exoplanets_discovered_...

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by rbanffy on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:49AM (#28593745)
We can for a lot of systems. The shorter the orbital period, the easier they are to detect, however, and to detect Jupiter from a nearby system we’d need to be very lucky.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by Chris2048 on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:17AM (#28594727)
Hmm, I wonder if there are lots of variables that go into "likelihood of being hit by asteroid" - e.g. the size of the central star in the first place, and the resulting radius of the hab zone.

It's also of not: if earth hadn't been hit by at least some asteroids, it mightn't have any water.

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by areoform on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:47AM (#28593735)
There are some astronomers who believe that the converse is also true - Jupiter also flings in Kuiper-Belt Objects into Earth-Crossing Orbits. The results are complicated, https://academic.oup.com/astrogeo/article/49/1/1.22/306978

Relevant quote,

> The flip side of the coin is also true, however — for an object to threaten the Earth, it first has to have an Earth-crossing orbit. Were Jupiter absent, there would be far fewer short-period comets, and it is likely that the asteroid belt would be far less heavily stirred, though it is also true that, without Jupiter, the asteroid belt would no doubt look very different! Every encounter between a small body and Jupiter is random — it throws objects inwards as well as outwards, and can just as easily place objects onto an Earth-crossing orbit as it can remove them from these orbits. Therefore, it is clear that at least some of the objects that hit the Earth would not have done so, had Jupiter not played a role.

> Whether Jupiter acts as a friend or a foe comes down to the balance between the two effects discussed above — does Jupiter provide more of a shielding effect, or is the contribution to the terrestrial impact flux so enhanced by the objects it throws our way that this outweighs its defensive work? In order to examine this balance, we are in the process of a series of detailed integrations, following the behaviour of hundreds of thousands of potential impactors in a range of theoretical solar systems. Given that there are three reservoirs of potentially hazardous objects (the Oort Cloud, the Edgeworth-Kuiper belt, and the asteroid belt), our study will be looking at each of these reservoirs in turn.

It is currently unclear whether the net effect is harmful or beneficial. But what we do know is that the fact that we are dyadic system (i.e. our moon is arguably the size of a planet - and we exist in a pair with it) has protected us during Sol's younger and more active days. More specifically it protected us from ending up like Mars with a stripped away atmosphere. This hypothesis is fairly well studied and is held to be very likely to be true.

Our moon, along with Jupiter, may also act as interference for the Earth w.r.t. Earth-crossing asteroids. There are arguments against this because of the smaller size of the Moon, but there are also some analyses for this - given that the asteroids are affected by the Moon's gravity, and even though the Earth-Moon Barycentre lies within the Earth, the combined system may afford some protection. (i.e. asteroids are more likely to have more near misses given the displacement of the barycentre from the centre of the Earth). But this is a guess, and more study is needed.

Papers,

When the Moon had a magnetosphere - https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abc0865

The timeline of the Lunar bombardment - revisited. - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1801.03756.pdf

The Late Heavy Bombardment in The Inner Solar System: Is there Any Connection To Kuiper Belt Objects? - https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.61...

Bashing holes in the tale of Earth’s troubled youth - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-01074-6

Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by NHQ on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:09AM (#28593923)
If it hit Jupiter on the inner orbit side, then whatever struck the outer planet already missed us (if it was ever within our orbit to begin with). Since we can see the impact from Earth, it must have struck the inner orbit side.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by kijin on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:56PM (#28595947)
It could have been captured from another angle and swung around wildly before its orbit finally intersected the "surface" of Jupiter.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by dylan604 on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:18AM (#28594040)
I think there would be a lot of push back from christian based religions. They would be offended at the mere suggestion. So if you're really wanting this, be prepared for a fight.
Re:Something big just hit Jupiter by dctoedt on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:00AM (#28594527)
> I think there would be a lot of push back from christian based religions. They would be offended at the mere suggestion.

Perhaps from some of the fundamentalist sects, but unlikely from the liberal mainline branches; we'd recognize "Jupiter" as referring to the planet, not the Roman name of the Greek mythological Zeus.