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Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by nostromo on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:01PM (#28542295)
It's crazy to me how many unscrupulous actors there are in the VPN space where you really really need to trust your provider.

I don't trust my ISP much at all, but I still trust them more than almost any VPN provider.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by simorley on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:08PM (#28543039)
I no more trust VPN providers than I do online pdf converters. I wonder how many people submit their sensitive documents to these online services to convert their documents to pdf.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by Aerroon on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:22PM (#28545159)
If the only way they know how to make their document into a PDF is an online converter and they need the document as PDF them that's what they're going to do. It really doesn't help that exporting documents as a PDF was an arcane process for a long time.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by Ziomislaw on Thursday September 16, 2021 @07:35AM (#28550410)
press print document, select pdf, confirm - done! arcane?
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by Aerroon on Sunday September 19, 2021 @03:49AM (#28582508)
For a lot of people? Yes, this is not intuitive. If a user wants to "save a file" then why do they have to press the "print" button and select a "printer" that's not actually a printer?

Saving/exporting as a PDF should be something you select in the same menu as saving a file normally. Or at least something very close an obvious.

Also, back when a lot of people first used computers the option to print as pdf might not have been available for them.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by mtVessel on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:27PM (#28554582)
How quickly we forget the dark days before PDF print drivers.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by kwertyoowiyop on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:38PM (#28543416)
I’m going to start an online Excel proofreader and logic checker. Should be interesting!

/JK

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by midnightGhost on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:22PM (#28542506)
I'm in the same boat. Though I actually do trust my VPN provider Mullvad. Highly talked about, based in Switzerland, and Mozilla also uses them for their VPN service.

Edit: Sorry. Not Switzerland. Sweden. For some reason thought Switzerland.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by croes on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:29PM (#28542575)
Switzerland, home of the Crypto AG. Switzerland lost its reputation as a secure privacy haven.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by scns on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:41PM (#28542708)
The mail service that handed over data of a customer to a foreign government and changed the privacy statement on their site is based there too IIRC. The name eludes me know, surely several readers can provide it.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by woko on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:41AM (#28549423)
There are several issues with your statement.

> The mail service that handed over data of a customer to a foreign government

First, ProtonMail can only hand over meta-data, because data is encrypted.

Second, "ProtonMail does not give data to foreign governments; that’s illegal under Article 271 of the Swiss Criminal code. We only comply with legally binding orders from Swiss authorities."

> and changed the privacy statement on their site

The privacy policy was not misleading if you read it carefully. It was not "changed" as in removing a lie from the statement. At best, it was clarified to ensure *everyone* would correctly understand it in the future. It is accessible at https://protonmail.com/privacy-policy

What may have been misleading was the marketing message on the homepage. If you pondered each word of the one-sentence marketing message, you could have guessed that the expression "by default" was there for a purpose. Companies do not add useless words for marketing, they do it to avoid false advertisement. However, this is not the same thing as the privacy policy. And ProtonMail stated that they would fix that: "we will be making updates to our website to better clarify ProtonMail’s obligations in cases of criminal prosecution".

Quotes are taken from: https://protonmail.com/blog/climate-activist-arrest/

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by scns on Thursday September 16, 2021 @08:44AM (#28550994)
Thank you very much for those clarifications.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by TacticalCoder on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:53PM (#28542881)
protonmail? Although I take it they are still to be trusted more than most.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:42PM (#28542719)
Plus the recent Protonmail fiasco.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by legrande on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:04PM (#28542996)
> Protonmail fiasco

Not a fiasco as they're required by law to keep IP logs. You can disable the logging of IP sessions in the PM dashboard, but you can't guarantee that PM will not keep logs, since their servers are all Public Internet Facing. The only way Protonmail is 100% zero knowledge is to be a 100% a dark-net/Tor service, which immediately turns off 99% of their users.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by dylan604 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:34PM (#28545256)
If you misled your users into thinking that this isn't something you would do, but as soon as shit hits the fan and the PR makes it impossible to keep the ruse going. It's a total fiasco to that business' marketing department.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by jimmySixDOF on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @09:26PM (#28546808)
my understanding is they only logged the IP details after receiving the Swiss LI request and did so only for the user in question.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by dylan604 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:03PM (#28547079)
I'm sure that makes the one user feel all warm and fuzzy. Also, what about next. Or the time after, or after or...
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by maxwelldone on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:33PM (#28542614)
Mullvad is great. They are from Sweden, not Switzerland. Not sure if anyone else does it but you can just mail them cash anonymously to get started.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by CRConrad on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @08:35PM (#28546377)
People (mostly Americans) getting the two mixed up has been a meme in Sweden for many many years; it predates the Internet.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by lbschenkel on Thursday September 16, 2021 @07:42AM (#28550455)
It is even worse in Portuguese; there is only a two letter difference: Suécia (Sweden) vs Suíça (Switzerland) — or three letters depending on your perspective, but in Portuguese the c with cedilla is not considered to be a different letter from a plain c, and in this case both forms are pronounced the same. Therefore some level of confusion is understandable, even expected.

In English they are similar as well but spelling and pronunciation are different enough that there should be less confusion, at least on paper. Not sure why there is such confusion in practice.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by Moru on Friday September 17, 2021 @01:42AM (#28561684)
Austria - Australia is another common mistake.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by CRConrad on Saturday September 18, 2021 @06:26AM (#28575060)
Just yesterday or so I watched an "Alternative Contries"[1] video on YouTube where the most hilarious proposal -- took me a while to grok -- was Australia-Hungary.

___

[1]: Kind of a sub-genre of alternate history and/or history-simulation-game AI timelapse videos.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by stef25 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:43PM (#28543473)
Always wondered why people don't just create their own using something like Outline on a DO droplet (bithost) ? How is Mullvad better?

I don't understand how we should trust a company we know nothing about other than the text they put on their website which basically means nothing.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by zucker42 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @08:25PM (#28546304)
Using a public VPN anonymizes your traffic if you assume many other people are using the same VPN server. A MITM can easily see you're using the VPN but not easily what websites you're accessing. If the VPN provider is truthful about not keeping logs, it's hard to prove that you visited a particular website and not someone else using the VPN. A DO droplet does not provide the same thing. You can visit a website, the website can store your IP for months or years, then LE can subpoena DO for the person with that IP at a given time. Plus setting up a DO droplet VPN sounds like a PITA.

As for why to trust Mullvad in particular, you can't trust them completely but they list all their employees and their ownership structure publicly, they have a good track record, they have documentation which seems like it's written by people who know about security and their customers' potential threat models, and they don't have a suspiciously large advertising budget.

However, I wouldn't trust any VPN if you have to withstand targeted scrutiny from governments.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by stef25 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:28PM (#28547622)
> Using a public VPN anonymizes your traffic if you assume many other people are using the same VPN server

Gotcha

> Plus setting up a DO droplet VPN sounds like a PITA

It's actually very easy using https://getoutline.org/ - can highly recommend it if you need a fixed IP. And you can buy DO droplets with cryptocurrency through Bithost

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by geokon on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:50AM (#28549475)
If you torrent through a DO droplet they will send you a warning. So your traffic is monitored
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by atmosx on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:10PM (#28544392)
Because the threat model is different than the one you have in mind. VPN providers for 5$ a month will give you multiple proxies throughout the world. Spinning up 70 droplets in different regions is not a viable cost effective solution.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by jaywalk on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:25PM (#28543919)
You can use Mullvad without supplying any personal information (not even an email address) and pay by literally sending them an envelope with cash in it. That's as good as it gets when it comes to preserving privacy.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by craig131 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:56PM (#28543618)
They’re probably trying to separate their billing information from public IP address which is the benefit of using a service that is crypto friendly
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by arthur_sav on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:01PM (#28543665)
The US has spent considerable time and money to add backdoors to any piece of software & hardware that exists out there. So, i'd imagine, VPNs to be high on the list because of their nature.

I would not trust VPNs for any kind of serious privacy, at least not the popular ones. Maybe some small niche VPNs can fly under the radar.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by SahAssar on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:09PM (#28544361)
Anyone expecting real privacy would use a VPN paid with SnailOnionCoin over a double-TOR homomorphic tunnel on tails.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by intricatedetail on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:59PM (#28542948)
If VPNs really protected from anything they would be illegal. At best you can slightly avoid being targeted by advertisers. I assume any system I use is compromised already.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by latchkey on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:17PM (#28542454)
Why would you want to trust your VPN provider?

That's like saying: "you really really need to trust a Bitcoin miner"

I'd hope the VPN service is built and operated in a way that doesn't require trust, but provides the same level of security.

edit: Since there is confusion in the responses. I'd prefer to trust no-one.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by kbenson on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:39PM (#28542684)
There's always trust involved. You have to trust the DNS infrastructure, you have to trust your ISP, you have to trust the VPN provider. You don't have to trust them completely, but you have to trust them at least somewhat.

We take steps to reduce the amount of trust required, such as splitting that trust across many parties, so any one party hopefully can't betray us enough that it matters or that we don't notice, but there's still a lot of trust. For example, we use SSL certificates and certificate authorities that are known ahead of time to protect from problems on the network, but that requires you trust your OS and/or your browser, which is generally how you receive those certificate authorities. If I'm able to get my own CA on your system and trusted, and I can see your traffic, it doesn't matter whether you're using HTTPS connections.

A VPN provider might say they're not keeping logs, or that their servers are not beholden to a third party and traffic is not being analyzed, but ultimately all you have is their word on that. Ultimately, the only thing different between you connecting to the NSA and routing all your traffic (even if your traffic is mostly encrypted) through them so they can look at it and a VPN provider is that you trust the VPN provider when they say they aren't the NSA and they aren't looking at your traffic.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by aborsy on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:29PM (#28543976)
It’s worth mentioning that, if you listen to the podcast mentioned in this thread, DarkMatter, the hacking company, at some point ran a certificate authority that was recognized by browsers including Chrome and Firefox, until lately that news about them came out.

I wouldn’t blindly trust CAs either.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by kbenson on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:48PM (#28545407)
Oh, I don't, it's just also really hard to vet that stuff adequately as a single person, and also why HTTPS isn't always adequate.

There's DNS and root servers to consider as well (but that might be harder to hide with all the caching going on).

I almost edited my above comment a few minutes afterwards to append something like "and honestly, it would be pretty hard to convince me the NSA or some other group hasn't run one or more VPN providers in the past. The only question in my eye is whether it was a popular one or not."

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by whoknew1122 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:23PM (#28542507)
But then you have to trust that the VPN service is built and operated the way they say it is.

Or have we already forgot about Zoom's "end-to-end encryption?"

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by bcrosby95 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:44PM (#28542754)
> I'd hope the VPN service is built and operated in a way that doesn't require trust

Unless you're continuously verifying, this requires trust that it is built that way and/or won't be changed in the future.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by BenoitEssiambre on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:30PM (#28542592)
I don't think VPNs go that far. Wouldn't that be more like Tor type of security?
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by HappySweeney on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:22PM (#28542500)
How would you verify there are no logs kept?
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by latchkey on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:28PM (#28542561)
Inverse is true as well. How do you prove it?
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by jonfw on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:37PM (#28542652)
You can't prove it, which is why you want to find a VPN provider you can trust
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by cblconfederate on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:02PM (#28543673)
Someone can steal their logs
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by downWidOutaFite on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:09PM (#28542375)
I don't trust any security-oriented software of any kind.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by beermonster on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:34PM (#28542625)
And likewise, although I don’t trust Cloud service providers all that much… I’d sooner spin up my own VM and run strongSwan or WireGuard than use a VPN provider.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by throwaway675309 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @08:54PM (#28546544)
Wouldn't it just be a different type of vector in terms of being able to nail you though?

Since the VM company (unlike a VPN such as mullvad) makes zero promises with respect to keeping logs, if you visited badsite.com, then later the FBI raids badsite.com, sees a VM company IP address, subpoenas your VM company who says that your particular VM was leasing that specific IP at time XX:XX:XX, then you're done.

Further, mullvad gives you several relatively anonymous means of purchasing a VPN, whereas the vast majority of VM companies (digital ocean, linode) will require and store all manner of personally identifiable information about you.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by beermonster on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:19AM (#28548675)
> Wouldn't it just be a different type of vector in terms of being able to nail you though?

Quite. Depends on your threat model and what you’re using the VPN for in the first place.

Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by aborsy on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:34PM (#28544014)
Now you have to trust your VM provider, mostly US providers, that actually mention they collect some data and traffic to improve their services and comply with law.
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by beermonster on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:41PM (#28544105)
This is true. But you can’t have an internet connection without trusting at least somebody ?
Re:Three ex-US intelligence officers admit hacking for UAE by mensetmanusman on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:40PM (#28545320)
ISPs send emails immediately if someone uses your IP address to download a BBC episode.