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Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by Bayart on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:00PM (#28435001)
I feel every attempt at community-by-design bears within it the seed of inhumane horror. Forget about the energy equation of building a city in a desert, what's the on-boarding process for prospective inhabitants ? Putting the price of accommodation sky-high to make sure everybody's in the right tax-bracket (or even earns enough to not pay taxes) ? Going through an interview process to only take in people with the "right vibes" ? How do you get teachers, garbage collectors, plumbers, nurses, all sorts of manual workers ? Park them in a ghetto like in Dubai, make ideological adhesion rather than money the filter (good luck with funding) or try to automate them away ?
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by panarky on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:54PM (#28435624)
> energy equation of building a city in a desert

Solar and nuclear work great in deserts.

I'd be more concerned about water.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by dreamcompiler on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:19PM (#28438744)
Water is the biggest challenge. All the city's waste water will need to be recycled. That's doable, but to compensate for evaporation they might also need to pipe in water from coastal desalination plants if they cannot harvest enough rain. That's a lot harder.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by kevin_thibedeau on Monday September 06, 2021 @07:14PM (#28439141)
I'd be concerned about their ability to handle sewage which requires water for processing. Burj Khalifa has to have its sewage trucked out daily because nobody bothered to plan for the load on the Dubai infrastructure.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by zer0tonin on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:33PM (#28436008)
How do you cool a nuclear reactor without water?
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by fogof on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:29PM (#28438317)
I guess you don't. That's why they're concerned.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by panarky on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @12:17AM (#28440874)
The Palo Verde Generating Station is a nuclear power plant located near Tonopah, in western Arizona. It is located about 72 km due west of downtown Phoenix, Arizona, and it is located near the Gila River, which is dry save for the rainy season in late summer.

The power plant evaporates the water from the treated sewage from several nearby cities and towns to provide the cooling of the steam that it produces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_...

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by nanomonkey on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:26PM (#28438799)
Night radiative cooling, the Cosmic Background radiation temperature is 4 degrees K.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by dave333 on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:37PM (#28438905)
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by bgardell on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:41PM (#28438427)
Sewage
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by lprubin on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:06PM (#28435085)
One idea is an expansion of a law already on the books in many cities. When you create a new building / housing complex (which will be 100% in a new city), you require X% of units to be "affordable housing". I could see the city just increasing the required % and then giving tax credits to developers to offset the lost revenue to them. Given that this city would be built in stages, it will give them time to hone in on the desired percentage.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by ac29 on Monday September 06, 2021 @02:03PM (#28436334)
The problem is "affordable housing" isnt actually affordable for many. I qualify for it in the city I live in, and despite working full time for significantly above minimum wage, the rent on a 1bd apartment through this program would be about 75% of my take-home income.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by nnnnnkkk on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @08:31AM (#28443885)
Only in the late twentieth century has a private 1br apartment for single people become something people feel they're entitled to.

I've been in your situation, and you know what I did? I got a roommate. Really cuts on costs, and getting married makes the situation permanent.

At no time in history have the poorest been able to afford one bedroom apartments alone. Remember the stories of huge families crammed into apartments from 100 years ago? The fact that you only need one roommate instead of eleven to get by is progress.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by jsjohnst on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @12:25AM (#28440923)
Would you be willing to state what city this is and your profession? I think it would go a long way towards showing how real this problem is to skeptics.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by kiba on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:28PM (#28435334)
I don't think this work as this is just rent controlled housing. Better to cut the unnecessary red tape and let developers build more housing.

Also, I think penalizing vacant properties would also be a good idea.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by jdavis703 on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:31PM (#28438333)
In practice I don’t think this works for an green field city. Filtering takes decades to occur. In the meantime new housing will always be more expensive than a low-income worker can afford. If the city wants service workers they’re going to have to subsidize their initial housing.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by swiley on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:52PM (#28438513)
One alternative is to pay workers enough to afford housing. It’s surprising how rarely people mention that idea. It’s very likely thee d of “worker+housing shortage” which is just a very roundabout way to say “massive inflation.”
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by nicoburns on Monday September 06, 2021 @07:53PM (#28439380)
Probably becayse the inflation has been disproportionately in housing only. Less true now since covid of course, but housing is still a separate problem to be dealt with.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by nostrademons on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @02:15AM (#28441501)
If there are more houses built than people who want to live in the city, housing will be affordable for everybody, because an unhoused worker will just buy the vacant unit next door for less if a developer tries to gouge them.

The reason new construction never works like this is because developers only build housing when there's already a severe shortage of housing in the metro area. They respond to price signals, and the price only starts going up when you have multiple bidders bidding for the same home. And why wouldn't they? If they built housing in places that already had an abundance of housing, they're making an economically foolish choice and will go bankrupt. When you observe that developers never build affordable housing, you're observing the effect of selection bias: in a region where there are enough houses for everyone and hence they're affordable to the average worker, developers aren't going to build even more new houses.

You can observe this throughout the Rust Belt: there are more homes than people, so prices are very affordable, but developers would need to be insane to build even more houses (outside of specific neighborhoods or suburbs that are locally hot). Also when you get a macroeconomic crash in the middle of a housing boom: the houses get completed, they sell for dimes on the dollar, but nobody has jobs anymore so they can't afford to buy them,

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by postingawayonhn on Monday September 06, 2021 @11:37PM (#28440670)
I don't think that's necessarily true.

Raw cost of housing is essentially the cost of the land + the cost of the building.

In established cites the cost of land is high and developers tend to build expensive buildings on that land. Low-income workers than move to older buildings as they're cheaper (expensive land, cheap building).

In a new greenfield city the land will be very cheap (for whoever established the city) so that can keep the cost of housing down (cheap land, expensive building).

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by lprubin on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:32PM (#28435368)
I'm curious to hear why you think it doesn't work. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just would like to know more.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by zozbot234 on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:40PM (#28435446)
The point is that no matter how much housing you reserve to be "affordable housing", it will still be scarce and thus unaffordable to most. And this kind of well-intentioned red tape often ends up shrinking the supply of housing as a whole, which only makes it even less affordable.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by lprubin on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:45PM (#28435518)
If you compensate the developers' losses in revenue with tax breaks, how does it shrink the supply?
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by kiba on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:53PM (#28435610)
If it doesn't encourage developers to build more houses, then it does nothing.

We care more about the number of people housed, not merely just people who are housed who can afford their bills.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by lprubin on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:06PM (#28435762)
The original question was "How do you get teachers, garbage collectors, plumbers, nurses, all sorts of manual workers ?" Those people all have some amount of money they can afford to pay their bills. Since a city needs some percentage of those workers, having housing they can afford is a big step towards attracting them.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by kiba on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:38PM (#28436071)
If you want affordable housing, then build houses.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by throwawaysea on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:13PM (#28438164)
But where is the line? Rampant development can completely alter the feel and culture of a neighborhood and city. It can take away from those things the existing residents enjoy. Sure more supply can accommodate more humans but they won’t necessarily be the same humans if current residents leave, and it won’t necessarily be the same place afterwards. Desirability (demand) creates scarcity but scarcity can also be desirable in itself for some things. At some threshold, the answer isn’t build more but locate people elsewhere and build a more distributed economy rather than a few concentrated powerful cities or states.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by CodeShmode on Monday September 06, 2021 @09:04PM (#28439750)
The local government version of “f*** off, we’re full”
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by anamax on Monday September 06, 2021 @08:46PM (#28439655)
If "affordable housing" means "under market price", in practice AH means that it goes to the connected at that price. If they can, they resell at market later, if they can't, well, they just got subsidized housing.

Remember, housing prices in high-priced areas are driven by location, location, location, location, location (yes, two more locations than ordinary housing), so "it's small" doesn't translate to "the market price is low." (It's just less expensive than big.)

When the "market price" exceeds the cash price, the folks who get to buy are the ones who have some way to pay outside the system.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by otabdeveloper4 on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @02:34AM (#28441624)
Some countries have what's called "buyer-funded development". Property buyers invest into shares of the development company which then uses the funds to buy land and build housing.

Investors get much cheaper prices, developers get easy liquidity. The downside is that you have to wait a year or two before moving in, and some theoretical risk. (Which can be managed with proper legislation.)

But the scheme works if you want affordable housing.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by anamax on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @03:18AM (#28441909)
No, that scheme doesn't do what you think it does (and that scheme is occasionally done in the US, especially for luxury residences).

Suppose that the residences will be worth $1000 when built and it costs $500 to build them.

The pay-in-advance price will be around $1000 - interest.

The pay-in-advance price won't be significantly less than $1000-interest because the builder can borrow the $500, and sell for $1000 when built, repaying the bank and pocketing the rest.

The pay-in-advance price won't be significantly more than $1000-interest because if it is, folks who want to buy will wait and pay $1000 when the units are built (forcing the builder to borrow $500).

In other words, pay in advance doesn't result in below market prices.

If you add in some units which would sell for $500 but you're forcing the builder to sell them for $250, the question is "who gets them?" The answer to that question does not depend on when the payment is made.

In the US, the vast majority of the "below market" units will be split between friends of the local govt and the developer.

Yes, it would be nice if that wasn't true, but it is absurd to behave as if it isn't true (in the US).

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by otabdeveloper4 on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:10AM (#28454044)
You misunderstand the scheme.

With "buyer-funded development" the developer gets free liquidity, with no interest and no obligation to pay anything back. (Just an obligation to build something.) Obviously more profitable than having a bank take a cut for a loan.

The property is cheaper for the buyer because there are obvious risks involved for those in on the scheme at an early time. (And yes, it can be significantly cheaper, both because of the risk and due to opportunity cost while the property becomes attractive on the second-hand market.)

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by neilparikh on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @12:52AM (#28441051)
Note that this strategy is a bit regressive. The law usually only applies to multi unit housing, and exempts single family housing. But those who live in single family housing are usually are richer than those in multi unit housing, so this essentially makes housing more expensive and difficult to build for the lower income people.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by sakopov on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @01:40AM (#28441309)
The idea is ambitious but incredibly dystopian because it completely excludes conflicts arising from our innate differences. It's literally a real-world imitation of the Brave New World plot.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by ginko on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:15PM (#28435183)
What's more did any of these planned communities ever pan out? There were plenty projects started in the 20th century alone. Guess Walt Disney's Epcot is the most well known failure.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by pmyteh on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:21PM (#28438234)
There are a bunch of planned new towns in the UK from the 20th century, as well as 'model' factory villages from the 19th. Some of them are really nice, some less so. Milton Keynes is the most interesting, I think. Well loved by the people who live there, mocked by those who don't, still successfully growing.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by dougmwne on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:29PM (#28438321)
Barcelona's Eixample comes to mind as a success with its 520 uniform housing blocks and 260,000 residents.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by jeffwass on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:57PM (#28439034)
Savannah, Georgia is a pretty city, based on the Oglethorpe Plan back in 1733.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oglethorpe_Plan

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by IncRnd on Monday September 06, 2021 @07:26PM (#28439228)
Looking at https://www.travelsafe-abroad.com/united-states/savannah/

  So... How Safe Is Savannah Really?
  Savannah is a reasonably unsafe city.
  The crime index ranges from medium to high.
  The main problems here are robberies and assaults, car theft and theft, vandalism, violent crime, and drug problems.
  Nevertheless, the historic Savannah district is entirely safe for exploring the area day and night.
  Better to be in a company than one.
  Outside the historical site, district crime is more common.
  When studying a historical area, remember that this is a tourist area, and there will always be those who hunt tourists – be careful, but especially at night.
  One still needs to follow the dictates of common sense to avoid being victimized.
  Don’t walk around alone at night, particularly in unfamiliar neighborhoods.
  Lock vehicles and keep valuables out of sight.
  For cars, perhaps you need to be especially careful – the number of car thefts and hacks is enormous.
  Be sure to close the car and park in a guarded parking lot to avoid problems.
  Never leave anything in the car, not even trinkets.
  Do not get involved in any relationship with drug dealers; drugs are illegal here. Nevertheless, there are many who wish to offer or sell them to you.
  Keep an eye on your drink at the bar – there have been times when strangers added opiates to rob a victim.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by iudqnolq on Monday September 06, 2021 @08:00PM (#28439413)
That website looks like machine-generated nonsense. For example, they imply the terrorist risk is significant and worse for foreigners.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by prawn on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @02:28AM (#28453757)
Those tips would be written about almost every city in almost every country.

We thought Savannah (in the context of the planned area being discussed) was great. The unique little garden squares are probably the first thing I'd replicate were I designing a new city.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by leetcrew on Monday September 06, 2021 @07:23PM (#28439210)
depends what you mean by "pan out". columbia, md [0] is a fairly successful planned community. I personally wouldn't want to live there, but it's a fine place to live if you enjoy life in the suburbs.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia,_Maryland

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by JoshuaDavid on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:30PM (#28438838)
I'd say that Irvine, California panned out.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by dr_dshiv on Monday September 06, 2021 @09:28PM (#28439869)
Not a failure, he just died shortly after that investor video.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by dboreham on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:59PM (#28439047)
Washington DC
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by tdeck on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @04:22AM (#28442344)
My first thought was this city/settlement built by a cult in the Oregon desert:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneeshpuram?wprov=sfla1

Not closely related to the article but a very odd story.

Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by phkahler on Monday September 06, 2021 @09:51PM (#28439993)
Well since they mention funding from investors we can expect to pay a lot of rent, or pay really high prices.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by gremloni on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @06:59PM (#28450905)
I feel like deserts are instinctively slept on. It’s always sunny, nice and hot, low humidity, great for solar energy and clean. The only problem is water and the plan seems to address that issue.
Re:Plans for a new city in the American desert by freemint on Saturday September 11, 2021 @04:39PM (#28495728)
And that it gets really, really cold at night.