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Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by marcus_holmes on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:02AM (#28273907)
If there's anywhere in the world that solar makes sense, it's Australia. Vast stretches of land, more sunshine than you can throw a stick at. Good to see it's starting to happen.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by foobar33333 on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:37AM (#28274833)
You might be interested in this solar project in Australia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundrop_Farms

This farm grows a huge amount of tomatoes in the desert. It has its own water desalination plant powered by solar. Unlike most of the stuff you see, this isn't PV solar generating electricity, but just a bunch of mirrors pointed at a single point to collect a huge amount of heat to generate fresh water.

Just look at the land in the photo on wikipedia and imagine how much food could be produced in this space.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by marcus_holmes on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:36PM (#28278442)
I've always thought that the vast aquifer in the centre of Aus, plus abundant sunlight, should make for easy desalination and irrigation. Glad to see someone's working on it :)

But they can chuck the leftover salt back into the ocean. That's harder to do away from the coast.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by nielsbot on Monday August 23, 2021 @02:13PM (#28279813)
Can't they just pile it up in a huge salt mountain?
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by foobar33333 on Friday September 03, 2021 @08:28PM (#28410982)
The salt would leach in to the ground, killing any plant life in the area for a very very long time.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by grecy on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:58AM (#28274174)
If the government would get out of the way, yes.

Unfortunately we have a government that has so clearly been bought and paid for by the existing money.

Our Prime Minister brought coal into Parliament and extolled it's virtues, going on and on about how it's the future. Right now they're building a $600M gas power plant[1], and Victoria is the only jurisdiction in the world where you are actively fined for driving an EV. [2]

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/23/solar...

[2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-22/victoria-electric-veh...

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by stirlo on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:09AM (#28274227)
> where you are actively fined for driving an EV.

Hyperbolic statements like this are unhelpful; The government has implemented a distance based tax on EVs (road pricing) to offset losses from the existing fuel excise taxes. It's certainly not progressive but it is not and never has been a "fine"

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by stephen_g on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:41AM (#28274870)
That’s what they say, but it’s actually misleading and inaccurate. The fuel excise is a Federal tax that just goes into general revenue (same as, say, income tax, alcohol excises, the tobacco excise, etc.). It’s the states that are implementing the EV taxes. They don’t automatically or directly get any money from the fuel excise.

The EV tax is a new, different, and not equivalent tax. They’ve hastily brought it in now before enough people have EVs to realise - which explains why it’s so badly designed (take, for instance, rural drivers that need to drive much further distances than city folk but have worse maintained roads and don’t really cause significant road wear or congestion. They’ll pay far more than the city dwellers! Or if you drive half the time in a different state, like people in regional areas who live on the border, you’ll pay a state tax for driving on another state’s roads!).

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by ludston on Monday August 23, 2021 @10:44AM (#28276526)
To be fair, people in regional areas that travel long distances already pay far more fuel related taxes than those in cities on account of using more fuel per capita.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by BLKNSLVR on Monday August 23, 2021 @09:00AM (#28275053)
Your statement, whilst true in direct translation is false in spirit. It's a fine in a tax's clothing. It is a tax wielded as weapon intended to inhibit uptake of EV's.

Australia should be subsidising EV purchases, not hastily implementing a new tax that further suppresses progress in a country falling ever further behind the rest of the world.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by grecy on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:19AM (#28274691)
Taxes on undesirable behaviour are for all intents and purposes the same as fines. i.e. carbon taxes.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by rswail on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:37AM (#28274830)
Yes, that is one form of taxation. But taxes for road use are to pay for the roads, ie consider them a "network usage" fee.

Having it be distance based is because there is currently a petrol tax that is also distance based, because it is per litre of fuel.

What should happen is that all vehicles should have the same distance based fee applied, with the additional cost of the CO2 output as a multiple. Make EVs the base fee.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by stephen_g on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:54AM (#28274991)
The fuel excise and these road usage charges are not equivalent, because the former is charged by the states and the latter by the Federal Government just into general revenue.

We already pay registration fees which are supposed to be a road usage tax. While they have cried poor about the loss of a tax they don’t even collect, at the end of the day this is literally just a cash grab by some States. (Luckily mine isn’t even talking about doing it, but I just think anything to discourage EVs is so idiotic policy and I really hate it being justified by half-truths and misleading info about the fuel excise).

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by reitzensteinm on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:48AM (#28274937)
Exactly. Or EVs could be taxed for road use, but a subsidy put in place to not discourage adoption during the transition.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what Victoria has done: https://www.solar.vic.gov.au/zero-emissions-vehicle-subsidy

Personally, I'd keep the EV tax as is, remove the subsidy, and significantly increase the ICE tax. Cars are awful, and their negative externalities don't stop at CO2 emissions.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by stephen_g on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:58AM (#28275035)
No, a per-km charge is really regressive and poorly designed. People in regional areas need to drive much further but have worse maintained roads and don’t cause anything like the congestion metro drivers do, and don’t cause anything like the road wear the big trucks do. A state like Victoria shouldn’t be charging somebody driving in, say, South Australia either.

To do it properly, you’d need different zones (higher charge in congested areas for example), but that would require creepy GPS tracking, or creepy ANPR everywhere. Really not a road we want to be going down as a society I think.

They could just double the cost of rego for everyone if they’re so concerned about not getting a tax they don’t get already (Fed Govt does).

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by belorn on Monday August 23, 2021 @09:57AM (#28275779)
I have yet to decide if I consider ANPR more creepy than parking when ANPR is used for taxation or road tolls. Both require some form of payment system when a car is located at some specific place and when computers are involved they store records of license plates and locations. Both would benefit from tight data regulation to prevent abuse and data retention.

The only major difference is that sometimes you can not avoid going pass a road toll. However the same can also be said about finding a parking space, and parking data is likely much more detailed information than passing the edge of a traffic zone. Many parking spaces in the city where I live have also moved over to use ANPR, which kind of mean the two concepts has already merged to a degree.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by reitzensteinm on Monday August 23, 2021 @05:16PM (#28282084)
Sure, increased rego works great.

The per km thing is a bit creepy even if it's just reading the odometer, and as you say a bad deal for regional residents.

It's also very viable to not own a car in the city. I don't have one. But in the country, what behavior are you trying to encourage? So that complicates things.

It should probably be means tested too.

I just object to the idea that EVs should be subsidized rather than ICEs punished. It puts the finger on the scale away from even better solutions like riding, walking or public transport.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by belorn on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:36AM (#28274379)
Do Australia have a car tax?

If I look at the rules here in Sweden I find that EV owners also have to pay a car tax as any other car owners. They do get the first 5 years as free as tax bonus, but after that they pay just as any other car owner. The tax is a base value (~36$ per year) and then an additional value based on the emissions and attributes of the car.

Car ownership is taxed because there is road usage, parking, health care, and other costs associated with car ownership. There are also pollution created by the wheels, oils, cleaning products, and so on. To be honest, 36$ per year seems pretty cheap as a base value considering all the cost to society and should probably be raised when more cars become EV and less money is gotten from gas and car taxes. The alternative is to raise other taxes like income in order to fill the gap in the budget or lower the budget of road maintenance.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by marcus_holmes on Monday August 23, 2021 @10:47AM (#28276582)
yes, there's "rego" - the registration tax, collected by states on cars owned by residents of that state, and used to maintain the roads in the state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_registration#Aus...

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by thejosh on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:27AM (#28274009)
It's been huge for a while, see http://www.cleanenergyregulator.gov.au/RET/Forms-and-resourc... for a run down on the installations. It's big here as it can save you a lot of money.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by stefan_ on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:29AM (#28274023)
Can't export solar very well from Australia
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by nelox on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:36AM (#28274058)
Sun Cable is trying

https://suncable.sg/

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by robbiep on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:45AM (#28274910)
A good mate of mine runs 5B, the company that may end up deploying all the panels if it goes ahead. He’s a legend and if it happens throughly deserves the success. Would totally change australia!
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by philipri on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:52AM (#28274145)
Hydrogen is a possibility. Some serious investigation are underway.

https://www.aemc.gov.au/hydrogen-new-australian-manufacturin...

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by SideburnsOfDoom on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:31AM (#28274040)
Just a thought, what if Australia had ways to use excess power and export the result. e.g. refining ores and exporting metals instead of exporting ores. You don't need to literally "export electricity" in order to leverage a surplus of energy, for export.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by marcus_holmes on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:02AM (#28274563)
I've had this discussion around why we export iron ore and coal rather than steel. Which seems ridiculous to me. Why are we building huge port facilities for vast shipments of coal and iron ore, and not smelters with much smaller port facilities for shipping steel?

The answer I got was that smelters are hugely expensive and last longer than the mines, and so it makes sense to build the smelter near the factories, and ship the raw materials to the smelter from wherever they are being mined currently, rather than building the smelter near the mines and then having to ship raw materials there anyway once the mines run out. I've always thought this was a bit dubious (why is commercially viable to build smelters in Korea but not Aus?), but it does kinda make sense.

So the problem isn't "not enough excess power" but "insufficient infrastructure" coupled with "insufficient government willpower to build a decent manufacturing base here".

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by chii on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:48AM (#28274113)
export aluminium - often called solidified electricity.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by ginko on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:53AM (#28274149)
Seems obvious considering Australia is the world's largest producer of bauxite.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by jeeeb on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:19AM (#28274276)
Yup. Australia is one of the world’s largest Aluminium exporters currently, although I doubt that has much to do with using excess solar energy.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by ginko on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:23AM (#28274295)
They aren't though. They're only number 6, despite producing the most bauxite by far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_primary_a...

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by jeeeb on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:39AM (#28274392)
Australia is the 6th largest producer and 5th largest exporter of aluminium. To me that fits well within the statement “one of the world’s largest”

Of course Australia also sells a lot of bauxite to China.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by htneak on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:50AM (#28274132)
crypto-mining comes to mind
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by SideburnsOfDoom on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:01AM (#28274184)
True. In the same way that car-crashes and other pointless disasters come to mind.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by hutzlibu on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:54AM (#28274159)
It would be a good start, if australia would not burn so much coal anymore. Apart from that ... build energy intensive industry, anything with metal. And then if you still have a surpluss (very possible) export hydrogen or biofuel. Or build high voltage direct current power lines to asia.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by belorn on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:59AM (#28274546)
Australia biggest export is iron ore, followed by coal.

If you have a lot of energy and iron, a great way to combine the two is steel. Sweden is currently experimenting with the idea of green steel, using hydrogen as an replacement for coal.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by jl6 on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:38AM (#28274385)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-06-09/future-of...

Ultra high voltage DC ultra long distance submarine cables.

Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by legulere on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:13AM (#28274247)
You could use the electricity to make hydrogen, ammonia or aluminium and export that.
Re:Solar power in Australia outstrips coal-fired electricity... by throwawaysea on Monday August 23, 2021 @10:21AM (#28276143)
It’s like any other exchange of electricity between grids, which already takes place within larger countries. You just need to run a cable to create an export grid. Offshore wind farms have to run high voltage marine cables to the shore, for example. It is laid using the same techniques as underwater communication cables - with specialized ships.