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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by halflings on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:08AM (#28219320)
Apple's scheme includes operators manually verifying a low-res version of each image matching CSAM databases before any intervention. Of course, grey noise will never pass for CSAM and will fail that step.

The fact that you can randomly manipulate random noise until it matches the hash of an arbitrary image is not surprising. The real challenge is generating a real image that could be mistaken for CSAM at low res + is actually benign (or else just send CSAM directly) + matches the hash of real CSAM.

This is why SHAttered [1] was such a big deal, but daily random SHA collisions aren't.

[1] https://shattered.io/

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by lifthrasiir on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:14AM (#28219354)
But you can essentially perform DoS attack to human checkers, effectively rendering the entire system grind to a halt. The entire system is too reliant on the performance of NeuralHash which can be defaced in many ways. [1]

(Added later:) I should note that the DoS attack is only possible with the preimage attack and not the second preimage attack as the issue seemingly suggests, because you need the original CSAM to perform the second preimage attack. But given the second preimage attack is this easy, I don't have any hope for the preimage resistance anyway.

(Added much later:) And I realized that Apple did think of this possibility and only stores blinded hashes in the device, so the preimage attack doesn't really work as is. But it seems that the hash output is only 96 bits long according to the repository, so this attack might still be possible albeit with much higher computational cost.

[1] To be fair, I don't think that Apple's claim of 1/1,000,000,000,000 false positive rate refers to that of the algorithm. Apple probably tweaked the threshold for manual checking to match that target rate, knowing NeuralHash's false positive rate under the normal circumstances. Of course we know that there is no such thing like the normal circumstances.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:00AM (#28220005)
I have seen it suggested that everyone should flood the system with flagged images to overwhelm it in protest to this move by apple.

Sounds pretty stupid to me to fill your phone with kiddie porn in protest, but you do you internet people.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by mannerheim on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:58AM (#28220418)
You don't need to do that, just use images that collide with the hashes.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by robertoandred on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:43AM (#28221642)
How will you know something collides?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by mannerheim on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:17AM (#28222317)
> Apple’s method of detecting known CSAM is designed with user privacy in mind. Instead of scanning images in the cloud, the system performs on-device matching using a database of known CSAM image hashes provided by NCMEC and other child-safety organizations. Apple further transforms this database into an unreadable set of hashes, which is securely stored on users’ devices.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by robertoandred on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:11PM (#28223306)
Yeah, so how would you know something would collide with the hash?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by mannerheim on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:17PM (#28223413)
Because the hashes are stored on the user's device?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by robertoandred on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:18PM (#28223426)
No, encrypted and blinded hashes are stored. You can’t extract them.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by fastball on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:19AM (#28230272)
Right, but your device is checking against the hashes, no?

So at some point you generate an image which triggers a subroutine and you know that image collides.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by cyanite on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:11PM (#28226447)
This also means that the device doesn’t know if a given image is a match.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by robertoandred on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:39PM (#28226799)
Correct, only the server does.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by HALtheWise on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:53PM (#28226283)
Presumably, someone on the internet will download a dump _actual_ CP and run it through NeuralHash, then post the resulting hashes to GitHub. Doing so will be illegal for them because they are downloading CP, but it should be perfectly legal for you to then download the hashes they posted, randomly select one, and generate an innocuous image that matches it. The fact that Apple isn't posting hashes doesn't actually make it all that hard to get your hands on them.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:52AM (#28221823)
Because the algorithm and list will be on your phone, and can (has, per TFA) be extracted.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by robertoandred on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:54AM (#28221858)
You cannot extract or reverse the CSAM hashes. They've been encrypted and blinded using server-side-only keys. If TFA said that, it's lying.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by lifthrasiir on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:00PM (#28223141)
After more reading of the whitepaper I think you are right. As I understand it, given the image hash H0 and CSAM hashes H[1]...H[n] (some might be duplicates in disguise) the algorithm proceeds like this:

- The device generates a secret X and divides it into X[1]...X[m] with the secret sharing algorithm. m is some large number and any k (but no less) copies out of X[i] are enough to reconstruct X.

- The device stores blinded hashes f(H[1])...f(H[n]). The function f itself is not known to the client.

- The image hash H0 is compressed with another function g to the range between 1 and n.

- The downscaled image data (for the human check) is encrypted with X and appended with (probably) random X[i].

- The result is then encrypted again with a key derived from f(H0) and sent to the server with an associated data g(H0).

- The server tries to decrypt it with a key derived from f(H[g(H0)]). This is only possible when H[g(H0)] = H0, i.e. H0 represents some known CSAM.

- You can only decrypt the second layer with at least k copies of X[i] then.

At this stage Apple can still learn the number of CSAM images less than k. The fix is described in an overly technical document and I can't exactly follow, but supposedly the client can inject an appropriate amount of synthetic data where only the first layer can be always decrypted and the second layer is bogus (including the presumed X[i]).

---

Assuming this scheme is correctly implemented, the only attack I can imagine is the timing attack. As I understand a malicious client can choose not to send false data. This will affect the number of items that pass the first layer of encryption, so the client can possibly learn the number of actual matches by adjusting the number of synthetic data since the server can only proceed to the next step with at least k such items.

This attack seems technically possible, but is probably infeasible to perform (remember that we already need 2^95 oracle operations, which is only vaguely possible even in the local device). Maybe the technical report actually has a solution for this, but for now I can only guess.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:41PM (#28223742)
That synopsis disagrees with Apple's own descriptions - or rather it goes into the secondary checks, which confuses the issue that the initial hash checks are indeed performed on-device:

> Apple’s method of detecting known CSAM is designed with user privacy in mind. Instead of scanning images in the cloud, the system performs on-device matching using a database of known CSAM image hashes provided by NCMEC and other child-safety organizations. Apple further transforms this database into an unreadable set of hashes, which is securely stored on users’ devices.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:58AM (#28221931)
One does not need to reverse the CSAM hashes to find a collision with a hash. If the evaluation is being done on the phone, including identifying a hash match, the hashes must also be on the phone.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by robertoandred on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:17AM (#28222304)
No, matches are not verified on the phone. On the phone, your image hash is used to look up an encrypted/blinded (via the server's secret key) CSAM hash. Then your image data (the hash and visual derivative) is encrypted with that encrypted/blinded hash. This encrypted payload, along with a part of your image's hash, is sent to Apple. Then on the server, Apple uses that part of your image's hash and their secret key to create a decryption key for the payload. If your image hash matches the CSAM hash, the decryption key would unlock the payload.

In addition, they payload is protected at another layer by your user key. Only with enough mash matches can Apple put together the user decryption key and open the very innards of your image's payload containing the full hash and visual derivative.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:27AM (#28222520)
To quote a sibling comment, who looked into the horses' mouth:

> Apple’s method of detecting known CSAM is designed with user privacy in mind. Instead of scanning images in the cloud, the system performs on-device matching using a database of known CSAM image hashes provided by NCMEC and other child-safety organizations. Apple further transforms this database into an unreadable set of hashes, which is securely stored on users’ devices.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by mannerheim on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:02AM (#28222014)
I believe the hash comparisons are made on Apple's end. Then the only way to get hashes will be a data breach on Apple's end (unlikely but not impossible) or generating it from known CSAM material.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:04AM (#28222062)
That's not what Apple's plans state. The comparisons are done on phone, and are only escalated to Apple if there are more than N hash matches, at which point they are supposedly reviewed by Apple employees/contractors.

Otherwise, they'd just keep doing it on the material that's actually uploaded.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by mannerheim on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:16AM (#28222288)
Ah, never mind, you're right:

> Apple’s method of detecting known CSAM is designed with user privacy in mind. Instead of scanning images in the cloud, the system performs on-device matching using a database of known CSAM image hashes provided by NCMEC and other child-safety organizations. Apple further transforms this database into an unreadable set of hashes, which is securely stored on users’ devices.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by cyanite on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:14PM (#28226477)
He is not right, though. The system used will not reveal matches to the device, only to the server and only if the threshold is reached.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by cyanite on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:13PM (#28226470)
> That's not what Apple's plans state. The comparisons are done on phone

Yes but as stated in the technical description, this match is against a blinded table, so the device doesn’t learn if it’s a match or not.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by floatingatoll on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:16AM (#28221221)
It’s incredibly stupid because your Apple ID will get terminated for abusing Apple services.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:53AM (#28221848)
There are applications which automatically save images sent to you to your camera roll (such as Whatsapp, IIRC). How can Apple prove you put them there intentionally?

Granted, they most likely won't care, but it's a legitimate attack vector.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by floatingatoll on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:11AM (#28222182)
You’re right that it’s a valid attack upon the people Apple pays to review matched images before invoking law enforcement, but no harm comes to the recipient in that model, unless they receive real legitimate CSAM and don’t report it to the authorities themselves.

Attempted entrapment and abuse of computing systems, which is an uncomfortable way to phrase the WhatsApp scenario, would be quite sufficient cause for a discovery warrant to have WhatsApp reveal the sender’s identity to Apple. Doesn’t mean they’d be found guilty, but WhatsApp will fold a lot sooner than Apple, especially if the warrant is sealed by the court to prevent the sender from deleting any CSAM in their possession.

A hacker would say that’s all contrived nonsense and anyways it’s just SWATting, that’s no big deal. A judge would say that’s a reasonable balance of protecting the sender from being dragged through the mud in the press before being indicted and permitting the abused party (Apple) to pursue a conviction and damages.

I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by Majromax on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:45AM (#28220299)
> The fact that you can randomly manipulate random noise until it matches the hash of an arbitrary image is not surprising.

It is, actually. Remember that hashes are supposed to be many-bit digests of the original; it should take O(2^256) work to find a message with a chosen 256-bit hash and O(2^128) work to find a "birthday attack" collision. Finding any collision at all with NeuralHash so soon after its release is very surprising, suggesting the algorithm is not very strong.

SHAttered is a big deal because it is a fully working attack model, but the writing was on the wall for SHA-1 after the collisions were found in reduced-round variations of the hash. Attacks against an algorithm only get better with time, never worse.

Moreover, the break of NeuralHash may be even stronger than the SHAttered attack. The latter modifies two documents to produce a collision, but the NeuralHash collision here may be a preimage attack. It's not clear if the attacker crafted both images to produce the collision or just the second one.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by Ajedi32 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:50AM (#28220899)
NeuralHash is a perceptual hash, not a cryptographically secure hash. Perceptual hashes have trivially findable second preimages by design, as the entire point is for two different images which appear visually similar to return the same result.

It's not particularly surprising to me that a perceptual hash might also have collisions that don't look similar to the human eye, though if Apple ever claimed otherwise this counterexample is solid proof that they're wrong.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by cyanite on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:15PM (#28226492)
The problem is that you’d need the original NeuralHash, which isn’t stored on the device. The device only has a blinded version.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by rdli on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:15AM (#28219361)
Are you pinning your hopes that a false positive like this will be appropriately caught because of an army of faceless, low wage workers who stare at CSAM cases all day will immediately flag?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by rootusrootus on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:31AM (#28221442)
Apple has pretty deep pockets. Think how much that judgement is going to be when they find themselves in court for letting someone get raided over gray images.

Not that it's going to happen, since it would also require NCMEC to think the images match, but whatever. Attack me! Attack me! I want to retire.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by hda2 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:41PM (#28229754)
> Apple has pretty deep pockets.

For now, sure. What happens when their money runs short? What about the other tech companies that will inevitably be forced to deploy this shit? Will they also have Apple's pretty deep pockets?

Blind faith in this system will not magically fix how flawed it is nor the abuse and harm it will allow. This is going to hurt a lot of innocent people.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by brokenmachine on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:49PM (#28230140)
>Attack me! Attack me! I want to retire.

If you post your whatsapp address, I'm sure someone will oblige.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by icelancer on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:45AM (#28219546)
> Of course, grey noise will never pass for CSAM and will fail that step.

Never? You sure that one or more human operators will never make this mistake, dooming someone's life / causing them immense pain?

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:03AM (#28220025)
I can guarantee nobody will see the inside of a courtroom, on charges of possession and distribution of child porn for possessing multiple images of grey noise (unless there is some steganography going on).
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:56AM (#28221907)
One does not need to go to court to have their life ruined by accusations. Ironically, there's quite a few examples of this over the years for alleged CSAM.

One example that sticks out in my mind is a pair of grandparents who photographed their grandchildren playing in the back yard. A photo tech flagged their photo, they were arrested, and it took their lawyer going through the hoops to get a review of the photo for the charges to be dropped.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:38AM (#28222758)
Sure, there are always cases - but was their photo of a grey blob that matched a hash but is clearly a grey blob or of a naked child?

If the photo was a grey blob and they had to go through a judicial review for someone to look at the photo and confirm 'yes that is a grey blob' then color me wrong.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:43AM (#28222861)
I'd view a "grey blob" to be the MVP of hash collisions. I doubt that this will end with grey blobs - I see it ending with common images (memes would be great for this) being invisibly altered to collide with a CSAM hash.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:54AM (#28223042)
If you need a judicial review to confim that a slightly altered Bernie in Coat and Gloves meme is not the same image as the picture of a child being raped that they have on file then we have way bigger problems.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by falcolas on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:36PM (#28223666)
Here's the thing with CSAM - it's illegal to view and transmit. So nobody, until the police have confiscated your devices, will actually be able to verify that it is a "child being raped."

They'll view visual hashes, look at descriptions, and so forth, but nobody from Apple will actually be looking at them, because then they are guilty of viewing and transmitting CSAM.

I noted in another comment, even the prosecutors and defense lawyers in the case typically only get a description of the content, they don't see it themselves.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:15PM (#28224303)
This is just not true. Human review is conducted. Apple will conduct human review, facebook conduct human review, NCMEC will conduct human review, law enforcement will conduct human review, lawyers and judges will conduct human review.

Over the years there have been countless articles etc about how fucked up being a reviewer of content flagged at all the tech companies is. https://www.vice.com/en/article/a35xk5/facebook-moderators-a...

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by hannasanarion on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @02:58PM (#28225659)
Where did you get this idea, scooby doo?

It is not illegal to be an unwilling recipient of illegal material. If a package shows up at your door with a bomb, you're not gonna be thrown in jail for having a bomb.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by hnfong on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:11PM (#28225818)
In theory, sure.

At the very least, you'd be one of the primary suspects, and if you somehow got a bad lawyer, all bets are off.

https://hongkongfp.com/2021/08/12/judges-criticise-hong-kong...

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by hannasanarion on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:25PM (#28225967)
Okay, and when a cursory look at the bomb actually reveals it to be a fisher-price toy, what then?

What is the scenario where a grey blob gets on your phone that sets off CSAM alerts, an investigator looks at it and sees only a grey blob, and then still decides to alert the authorities even though it's just a grey blob, and the authorities still decide to arrest you even though it's just a grey blob, and the DA still decides to prosecute you even though it's just a grey blob, and a jury still decides to convict you, even though it's still just a grey blob?

You're the one who's off in theory-land imagining that every person in the entire justice system is just as stupid as this algorithm is.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by int_19h on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:56PM (#28229136)
Possession of CSAM is a strict liability crime in most jurisdictions.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by hannasanarion on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:13PM (#28235669)
That is simply not true. There is no American jurisdiction where child pornography is a strict liability crime.

On this topic, the Supreme Court has ruled in Dickerson v US that, in all cases, to avoid First Amendment conflicts, all child pornography statutes must be interpreted with at least a "reckless disregard" standard.

Here is a typical criminal definition, from Minnesota, where a defendant recently tried to argue that the statute was strict liability and therefore unconstitutional, and that argument was rejected by the courts because it is clearly written to require knowledge and intent:

> Subd. 4. Possession prohibited. (a) A person who possesses a pornographic work or a computer disk or computer or other electronic, magnetic, or optical storage system ․ containing a pornographic work, knowing or with reason to know its content and character, is guilty of a felony․

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by int_19h on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:43PM (#28239145)
I tried to look up [Antonio] Dickerson v. US, but I don't see any SCOTUS decision on it, only a certiorari petition. Do you have a reference for the decision?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by hannasanarion on Thursday August 19, 2021 @07:33PM (#28240624)
Yep, sorry, Dickerson was an appellant that cited the relevant case law, which is New York v Ferber.

Now, Dickerson rightfully lost and it's appropriate that SCOTUS rejected his case because he was involved in child porn production, not posession, so he can't rely on the Ferber precedent. He had the opportunity to ask the underage person in question their age, and chose not to, which would meet the reckless disregard standard anyway.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by int_19h on Friday August 20, 2021 @04:09PM (#28250829)
I don't see any mention of the reckless disregard standard in the New York v. Ferber decision, either? So far as I can see, it just says that CSAM is outside of the scope of 1A, so long as it's "adequately defined by the applicable state law". Am I missing something in the opinion?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by notRobot on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:45AM (#28220296)
Many people never see the inside of a courtroom when false or unproven rape accusations are made against them, but their lives still get ruined because of the negative publicity.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by bscphil on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:55AM (#28220955)
Those cases are not comparable, because the whole reason they have that impact is that the accusations are usually made publicly (because the whole point is to harm the reputation of one's rapist and warn others, should a conviction prove to be impossible), while CSAM review goes through a neural hash privately on your phone, then privately and anonymously through an Apple reviewer, then is privately reviewed at NCMEC (who - I think - have access to the full size image), and only then is turned over to law enforcement (which should also have access to the full image).

It only becomes public knowledge if law enforcement then chooses to charge you - and if all that happens on the basis of an obvious adversarial net image, the result is a publicity shitshow for Apple and you become a civil rights hero after your lawyer (even an underpaid overworked public defender should be able to handle this one) demonstrates this.

As others have stated in this thread, I think the real failure case is not someone's life getting ruined by claims of CSAM possession somehow resulting from a bad hash match, but the fact that planted material (or sent via message) can now easily ruin your life because it gets automatically reported; you can't simply delete it and move on any more.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by rootusrootus on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:34AM (#28221500)
We give way, way too much weight in the legal system to eye witness and victim statements, in absence of any corroborating evidence. That's a problem.

But not really comparable, IMO. You won't even know you got investigated until after the original images have been shipped off to NCMEC for verification.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:18AM (#28220584)
Are you suggesting that perhaps less people should report rape accusations, because it might be awkward for the accused to get negative publicity? Thats messed up.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by dannyw on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:13PM (#28223352)
What if it is legal pornography of 21 year olds but disturbed to collide with CSAM? You are aware even defence lawyers are not allowed to look at alleged CSAM material in court right?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:23PM (#28223504)
The process would not trigger any action. The NCMEC, who can look at the material, and are the people to whom the matter is reported, would compare the flagged image with the source material and reject it as not matching known CSAM.

What if the legal porn of a 21 year old that triggered the collision match looked really really really close? So close that a human can not distinguish between the image of a 12 year old being raped that they have in their database and your image? Well then you might have a problem, legal and otherwise.

> defence lawyers are not allowed to look at alleged CSAM material in court right

I know this is not true in many countries, but cant speak for your country.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by dannyw on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:42PM (#28223750)
You are aware that a lot of CSAM are close ups of say pussies for example, and human anatomy can look very similar?

I'm not talking about images of rape here. I'm taking about images that you'd see on a regular porn site, of adults and their body parts.

You are also aware that CSAM covers anywhere from 0 to 17.99 years of age, and the legal obligation to report exists equally for the whole spectrum?

So let's say I download a close up pussy collection of 31 images of what I believe to be consenting 20 year olds, and what are consenting 20 year olds.

But they are actually planted by an attacker (let's say an oppressive regime who doesn't like me) and disturbed to match CSAM, that is, pussy close ups of 17 year olds. They are all just pussy pics. They will look the same.

Should I go to jail?

Do I have a non zero chance of going to jail? Yes.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:27PM (#28224461)
If you have content that has a matching hash value and is identical by all computational and human inspection to content that has been identified as CSAM from which the hash was generate then you have a problem.

Without getting into the metaphysics of what is an image, at that point, you basically have a large collection of child porn.

Your hypothetical oppressive regime has gone to a lot of trouble planting not illegal evidence on your device. It would be much more effective to just put actual child porn on your device, which you would need to have to conduct the attack in the first place.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by cyanite on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:16PM (#28226515)
> You are aware that a lot of CSAM are close ups of say pussies for example, and human anatomy can look very similar?

I doubt images that look quite generic will make it into those hash sets, though.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by FabHK on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:35PM (#28227485)
Nearly impossible to verify, though, by construction.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by brokenmachine on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:47PM (#28230136)
What is the factual basis for you to doubt that?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by icelancer on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:46PM (#28227587)
> I can guarantee nobody will see the inside of a courtroom

This wasn't the question I asked.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by shapefrog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:08PM (#28228303)
> grey noise will never pass for CSAM > You sure that one or more human operators will never make this mistake.

Yes I can say 100% that no human operator will ever classify a grey image for a child being raped. Happy to put money on it.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by meowster on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:58PM (#28228740)
It's possible that the operator accidently clicks the wrong button.

When dealing with a monotonous task that the operator is probably getting PTSD from, I think the chance is greater than 0%.

Articles about content moderators and PTSD:

https://www.businessinsider.com/youtube-content-moderators-a...

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52642633

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/25/18229714/cognizant-facebo...

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by SXX on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:35AM (#28221526)
> The real challenge is generating a real image that could be mistaken for CSAM at low res + is actually benign (or else just send CSAM directly) + matches the hash of real CSAM.

Why do you have an idea that image have to be benign? Almost everyone watch porn and it's will be so much easier to find collisions by manipulating actual porn images which are not CSAM.

Also this way you'll more likely to trigged false-positive from Apple staff since they aren't suppose to see how actual CSAM looks like.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by bo1024 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:26AM (#28220152)
> The fact that you can randomly manipulate random noise until it matches the hash of an arbitrary image is not surprising.

Strongly disagree. (1) The primary feature of any decent hash function is that this should not happen. (2) Any preimage attack opens the way for further manipulations like you describe.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by brokensegue on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:37AM (#28221544)
cryptographic hashes are different from image fingerprints
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by bo1024 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:47AM (#28221703)
That's true, one way to put it is that traditionally non-cryptographic hashes are supposed to prevent accidental collisions, while cryptographic ones should prevent even collisions on purpose.

But hashing is used in many places that could be vulnerable to an attack, so I think the distinction is blurry. People used MD5 for lots of things but are moving away for this reason, even though they're not in cryptographic settings.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by varispeed on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:29AM (#28219811)
> Apple's scheme includes operators manually verifying a low-res version of each image

The reviewer, likely on a minimum wage, will report images just in case. Nobody would like to be dragged through the mud because they didn't report something they thought it is innocent.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by nabakin on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:27AM (#28219453)
I don't think that is far away either. I won't be surprised if that is achieved within the day, if not sooner.

Also, generating images that look the same as the original and yet produce a different hash.