>How are Apple still selling so many iPhones when the competition has caught up dramatically?

I'm not a tech person like folks around here. I'm good with tech such that dozens of friends and family use me for tech support, but my skills can't touch what HN users can do. I don’t even work in tech. Never have. I'm also someone who has been an Apple user since before there was a Mac.

The idea that the competition "has caught up" sounds like a specs kind-of comparison. I wouldn't know, but I assume it's true (especially ignoring Apple chips). All in all, I assume any major capabilities are widespread. Here are the things I see among average US users I know who are using iPhones and glad they do. Of course, they can afford any iPhone cost premium, but none of what I see is from people who are big spenders, the type who regularly get a newer model. For example, one friend is still happy with his iPhone 7 and a relative recently asked for iPhone recommendations when the screen got shattered on a 5S.

But here are the things I’ve noticed among the people I know, in no particular order:

1. Overall, they actively like the Apple UI and UX. It’s not that it works and that they can do whatever they want, it brings them a measure of pleasure. For all I know it’s as simple as the colors used, but there are experiences there (unknown to me) that delight them. Delight is powerful. Remember in the original iPhone intro when Jobs discussed showing the prototype to a friend and that person said something like, “You had me at rubber band scrolling”? That’s delight.

2. Apple Stores. Average users like knowing where to go in advance should they need full-on help. When making a platform switch, that’s reassuring and apt to come to mind. I think there’s a dual-action thought process—they’re comforted that they just know where there’s an Apple Store (not too far away for most Americans) and they’re at best ambivalent about the carrier store experience for a non-iPhone.

3. Accessories galore. The Android ecosystem may be just as bountiful, but most people believe the Apple ecosystem is bountiful. Other than a case they probably don’t know if there are even accessories they want, but they like the comfort of knowing there’s anything they can imagine if they get a need.

4. The iPad. If you're a tablet user (ignoring e-readers here), being all-in on one style of UI/UX, along with any Apple integrations—the notes just sync!—has value and allure. Since the iPad is the tablet, Apple has kind of cornered that multi-purchase market.

5A. Network effects. These remarkable, ongoing iPhone sales numbers, combined with ideas like I’ve described above, are going to have network effects. Whether it’s blue-bubble peer pressure, nearly 15 years of iPhone TV commercials seeping into minds, whatever… hundreds of millions of satisfied users are going to have network effects.

5B. The other network effect is all-time iPhone sales. What is it, around a billion now? Over nearly 15 years. That's a lot of phones getting replaced even by people who aren't the type to always have a sufficiently new model.

When a product reaches this many sales, it’s never about specific features. Nearly all buyers don’t know the strengths or weaknesses of the iPhone privacy features. Encryption? Most people’s first thought is a fear of getting locked out. Privacy? There’s a good chance they’ll install a Facebook, Instagram, or Google-made app anyway, all without a thought about privacy. The camera? They can see it's good. Apps? There are loads.

That’s why Apple keeps tacking on more small features or services. Keep the users happy. Users likely don’t care about the free Apple Arcade trial or home screen widgets or a new accessibility capability. But there’s something there for pretty much everyone. Maybe it’s the free season of Apple TV because they saw Ted Lasso. Or easily pinpointing a kid’s whereabouts. Or FaceTime because grandma has an iPad and she’ll know how to answer a FaceTime call the first time she gets one.

The product becomes something else at some point. And if Apple keeps them sufficiently satisfied, they’re unlikely to leave, especially since a smartphone borders on necessity in today’s world.

It’s super cool to have readers and contributors on HN such as yourself, thanks.

I have to assume there’s some appeal, too, to not having to research a half dozen manufacturers with several offerings each to pick a phone.

For me, every 2 years, I look for the best camera on an iPhone and my shopping is done.

I’m a techie so I’m not sure if the rest of the population thinks about this the same way, but I assume Android phones are spying on me much more than iPhones. Otherwise I’d be down with supporting an “open” phone, though I’m old enough to remember walking tons of people through installing Spybot Search & Destroy due to the, uh, openness of Windows. Also, I spend tons of time fiddling around on the command line and don’t feel the need to get my tinkerer fix from a phone. Maybe other people don’t want to move away from what’s familiar, or they just want to see the blue color for a fellow iMessage user to feel they’re using the same thing as the other iPhone folks. I’m also expecting to rely on various iOS permissions settings as my kids grow up, and Find My iPhone is very handy with my family’s devices.

I think it's true that both Android and iOS have privacy issues (at a software and design level).

And yep, from the branding of those devices (which Apple can control much more closely since they provide both hardware and software), the perception is much more likely to be that the svelte, sleek white object protects your privacy.

Over a long timeline though, I don't know whether a closed source ecosystem can prove (or achieve) that.

Maybe the code inside all those components is equally pristine and it all respects your privacy as much as the corresponding advertising claims would suggest. Perhaps time will tell.

Spybot Search & Destroy. What a blast from the past :D

That GIF from the /e/ foundation website shows quite well how much more, it is still a lot on an iPhone.

https://e.foundation/about-e/

Android has find my phone as well.

And Android has had it since 2013.

I am not sure if it's simply bad marketing but I often feel like a lot of the features Android has are unknown to iPhone users (understandable) but also unknown to many Android users.

I remember a colleague of mine getting an iPhone after being on Android for years. I asked her why she switched and she told me that there were all these great features her friend had told her about that iPhones had. Turns out all those features already existed on Android, they were just unknown to her.

If a feature falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, did it make a sound? Less cryptically, if a user isn't aware of a feature, does it really exist for them?

The ios one is just better. Or at least they present the features better. On Android I do not remember it being an app but instead a website you go to. On iOS the app has multiple functions, finding your phone/macbook/ipad, finding your friends if they enable location sharing, and finding your items via airtags. The latest version even lets you track your iphone while it is turned off via an airtags like function built in.

FYI: Its an app on Android also... and lets you find any registered device. Its up to you to get your friends registered on it tho.

Airtags are different as there is no first party implementation, they're all 3rd party (Tile, samsung, etc).

To counter what others are saying, switching to a samsung phone was a breeze and the camera is better. I don't have a gazillion iphone accessories so it helped. My take is: phones have peaked in their potential years ago, it's no longer 2012 and people can't keep rationalizing their purchases on technical superiority. Most people i meet who own iphones are heavily into the cult of the brand to the point where they 'll feel the need to comment about phones when they see you don't have one (for me phones are never a subject i'd bring up). My take is iphones are like LV bags: there is a lot of social signaling around phones and a lot of hyperbole over the superiority of apple to the point where it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And unlike other signaling purhcases like cars, these are actually affordable. That's why , i think, phone sales are higher than their other products: cause you carry the phone everywhere. I like iphones; but i ve become accustomed to the freedom of androids now which i value more.

The only bummer assuming you got a flagship Samsung, you will at least get one major OS update, while a large majority of Android phones get zero.

Google focus on flagship models on their security improvements and Treble adoption related talks for a reason.

i use an S10 currently which is already old, iirc it still prompts me for updates. In any case realistically i ll buy another phone in a 1-2 years. The interesting thing is that these iPhone buyers do the same, they keep buying the new models instead of keeping their old or buying used ones, so it can't be the superior updates support.

Frankly i think the biggest driver for iphone replacement is screens breaking. It's very costly to replace that on an iphone

This is not considering whether or not the majority of iPhone users replace their phone or not and not taking into account that apple care (which can bet a monthly $5) makes screen repair $30.

But if the share of iphones in the market is not increasing, yet sales keep going up, then it means most users are replacing them

imho this is the correct answer. It's also the reason why Apple seemingly can't make up their mind - making the phone thinner, wider, taller, shorter, camera notches, buttons, colors, etc. It's intentional - there must be some easily identifiable way to tell apart those with money and status from the pauper peasants who embarrass themselves with last year phones. BMW plays the same game with the grill on their cars. And the whole fashion industry is basically 100% built on this dynamic.

I'm just surprised that people need devices. I have an iPhone and no desire to replace it -- it's basically perfect at this point.

To some extent, I wonder what the future looks like for Apple. It's like some God gave them the golden goose, the iPhone, and I just wonder what happens when people are done buying those. (It's hard to imagine a world where people aren't buying $1200 phones, but it was also hard to imagine the world in 1990 where people weren't buying $1200 personal computers. So what does 2050 look like for Apple?)

Cameras get better with each phone iteration. So there's that.

Several years ago I would have had no idea that I would be able to hand-hold a 2-second low light shot with my iPhone camera.

What next?

The camera is literally the only reason I upgraded my 5 year old phone. There isn't really an app I use that runs better on the new phone vs the old, except the camera app of course, so it was an expensive camera upgrade (with new battery!).

I upgrade every 2 years. The processors and cameras get better every cycle and I use my phone so much that it's worth it to have a better experience. While $1200 seems like a lot, that's ~$40 /mo over 2 years (including the trade in value) for something I use for hours every day.

Do the new processors and cameras actually give you a better experience though? I used to upgrade regularly, but I'm still using my S10+ and I'm honestly not sure I'd've replaced my S8+ if it hadn't been stolen, I don't really notice a whole lot of difference. (If anything I miss the coloured notification light from the S7+).

I've found diminishing returns with upgrades recently. Since I got my iPhone XS I haven't seen anything pushing me to upgrade. I'll probably upgrade this year just to give my XS to my partner who is on a 6 and no longer receives updates.

Yeah, it's funny when people talk about workloads on their phone lol. I use it to text, make calls, slack for work, watch the occassional video and take some pictures. I'm not exactly batch processing 3d renderings on my phone and I suspect that 99% of the people out there aren't either. My 3 year old iphone is doing fine. as long as it gets security updates and isn't laggy it gets to live.

Yes. It's not that the old phone is unusable, but the new one will be noticeably faster and that's worth it to me. My most recent upgrade was going from an XR to an iPhone 12. If you compare the benchmarks, the 12 is ~30-50% faster for most workloads. And you can feel the difference when you switch between them.

I recently bought a used iPhone 7 because it will probably still receive software updates in two years. I had to retire a Samsung Nexus because SSL stopped working. Apple currently provides updates for fairly old phones, I hope they keep it up.

AR glasses to beam what used to be on your iPhone straight into your eyeballs at all times, is what Apple thinks, according to rumours.

Every time I read comments like this, I look around me at the plethora of Apple products that are 4, 5, 6 (mostly) trouble-free years old, mostly still receiving software updates to this day, and I think to myself: this comment does not at all accord with my lived experience.

Also apple does very reasonable battery replacements and has stores in many locations to do this.

Well there are a lot of people on HN so there is bound to be someone who gets a lemon and then extrapolates that to the entirety of apple products.

You’re really, really poorly informed on the battery issues. Apple didn’t slow phones down. It’s a basic fact of physics and chemistry that all rechargeable batteries will lose capacity over time, even if they’re not used. Once the capacity loss is high enough, the battery cannot supply enough current for demanding times and the phone would just shutdown without warning. All that Apple did was slow down the processor to avoid shutdowns so that phones with older and aged batteries could be usable for longer. This is contrary to ignorant allegations like yours.

What I’ve said above is not new. IIRC, Android also followed in the same footsteps much later.

You know what would fix that?

Replaceable batteries.

And they lost the lawsuit.

I can think of 8-10 places in walking distance of my house where I can get a new iPhone battery installed. Although it’s more fun to do it yourself!

fartcannon indeed

A new iPhone SE is $250 from Boost Mobile right now. The last time I owned a budget Android phone the MISC folder filled up with garbage that I couldn't delete until the phone was unusable. My iPhone SE will probably end up lasting something like five years. I think the iPhone SE is the best choice if you're on tight budget because its OS is better and the phone will last longer for that reason alone.

> A new iPhone SE is $250 from Boost Mobile right now

No, it isn't. It is probably about $500 if you want to know the true price you'll pay over the duration of the contract.

iPhone SE with 64GB is $399 direct from Apple...

> The last time I owned a budget Android phone the MISC folder filled up with garbage that I couldn't delete until the phone was unusable.

How old are you, gramps? This hasn't been the case since Android 4 days.

How many do you want to buy like that?

https://www.saturn.de/de/category/smartphones-498.html?filte...

Not sure what you mean, can you rephrase your question, please?

The majority of those models are filled with uninstallable garbage.

I can address the iPhone at least for me. I bought my first iPhone this year. The reason is because, unfortunately, Apple is the only company that pretty much promises more than 3 years of security updates. I believe on Android, pixel is the best with offering 3 years of support (my last phone was a Pixel 3a). I could have stuck with android and found a phone that is fully supported by some of the more FOSS implementations of Android, but it is a pain to source a phone that has all of the drivers. This is the one place where I commend Apple, their phones average about 6-7 years of security updates and OS updates.

I finally got an iPad two years ago and then half a year later I got a midrange iPhone.

Reason is I'm fed up with all my Android phones after Samsung SII either lagging from day one or starting to lag after a few months. I think I have lost a few nice photos because the phone was busy doing something else when you picked it up to shoot a funny moment. It also compounds: I think I reached less often for my camera phone when I know it will fail me.

I'm also tired of Samsung stalling OS updates to sell new phones.

I'm also didn't enjoy Sony adding Amazon link on the home screen of my phone during an OS update: It is a minor thing but it nicely proved they didn't understand it is my phone after I have paid them for it.

I've also given my three oldest kids used iPhones. iPhones are easier to repair and generally nicer, easier to get covers and screen protectors for and my kids prefer them.

Taking a step away from Google is a nice bonus.

(No Apple products before 2019 except a company laptop in 2009 - 2012.)

The iPhone SE and iPhone 12 mini have surprisingly compelling values. I'd consider switching if I were in the market for a new phone.

For Q2, year-on-year is comparing against the first wave of COVID last year, when the world was coming to a screeching halt. Many other tech companies like Google are posting similarly outrageous figures, simply because the baseline is low.

As for who's buying, COVID relief checks will be at least part of the answer.

A lot of people have more money now than before the pandemic started. If you were not among the ones who lost your job, then your income remained the same but you were spending less money going out and spending.

I think my #1 reason to stay Apple for the foreseeable years is that they put Privacy up there as a value. It makes all it's money from hardware and not my data. Once you understand how Google makes it's money it doesn't make you want to use it's products.

Homekit may not be as good as Alexa/Google assistant for home automation but it makes an effort to keep all your data local and not in a cloud. A small minority of us really value that.

I understand for regular people though it's really just a status symbol. I spent X on a phone cause I'm doing well in life.

For me its update length. In 2019 I did not have a single Apple product but then I needed a tablet and found that the android side was offering almost no compelling options so I picked up an iPad Air 2 (2014). I was absolutely shocked by the fact it was still getting updates (its getting ipados 15 now) which convinced me to try out the other products so I now own the iphone, watch, ipad pro and airpods. The air 2 went to my mum who still uses it today and it works well.

It's a status symbol and subsidized phones hide the true cost.

Exactly. And I'm so surprised by how many people on HN (smart people who understand psychology) don't seem to understand that people don't use rational arguments (security, specs, price, etc) when making purchase decisions.

Even if alternative smartphone exist, the iPhone is still all about status signaling. It's about implicitly communicating that you are part of the successful tribe. And Apple watches are now another such symbol.

Lol I bought an apple because it doesn't try to find out every aspect of my behavior and then send it off to 3rd part advertisers. also they get updates for 2-3x as long as android phones. The specs are close enough and I see my phone as a tool and most people I know do as well. I can't say I've ever heard someone say "ewwwwww you have an android?" . Maybe teenagers say that crap, but I've never heard an adult care.

I generalized of course. I know some people use more rational (less subconscious) reasons for buying Apple products.

But it is nevertheless useful to use generalizations and ignore the outliers (like you, for example) for understanding trends and social phenomena. People like us reading hacker news are statistically insignificant.

iPhones cost about the same amount as the equivalent from Samsung and Google though? The value per dollar on Apple products is very competitive.

> Go to a carrier store and these are so many modern looking Android devices that rival the iPhone 12.

Are there really? From what I hear from non-techie friends and coworkers, what they care the most about in a modern phone is the camera (everything else being effectively indistinguishable to them); and you can count the Android phones competitive in this field on one hand.

And all of them make different tradeoffs and/or have outright problems that prevent them from being "the" iPhone killer, even if you care enough to dig into their details, which most people don't have the time or interest in. Apple is the "safe" choice as far as the general public is concerned, and not undeservedly so.

> Go to a carrier store and these are so many modern looking Android devices that rival the iPhone 12.

No. Nothing rivals the iPhone 12. Its Apple Silicon CPU makes it the most powerful smartphone by a wide margin. And Apple didn't make the galaxybrain decision to include a runtime with a GC. Because, you know, they care about the entire user experience, including battery life and everything running at a smooth 60fps.

1. Most of the highest uptake in YOY were from Greater China.

2. 5G is a thing.

3. People are actually upgrading to 5G smartphone because they want their phone to last longer. Instead of buying another phone again.

4. China also has the largest 5G deployment. Their MNO upgrade to 5G is also a few years ahead of everyone else due to their needs from a high population density.

5. iOS 14 widget is surpassingly favourable among Android Switchers.

6. Google's reputation due to privacy concern is having some effect on Android market.

7. The urge to spend due to not being able to do much at home.

Basically it is lots of factors creating a perfect storm.

I still maintain the same analogy as 10 years ago, iOS / iPhone is a smartphone appliance trying to push upwards into a computer, while Android is a pocket computer trying to be like a Smartphone Appliance. Both have their appeals, but generally speaking I tend to prefer the less complex, simple model of iOS. But yes they are increasingly alike.

Flagship android devices have been ahead of apple (other than maybe cpu speed which doesn't much matter) in almost all features for the past decade. I got an iphone because google screwed up my account and it was like pulling teeth to get access back so I switched to Apple and enjoyed the extras of a much more private OS and a company not trying to sell me out to every shyster who pays a few bucks to their ad revenue branch. I still use linux for work and personal computing. I did on a whim by a low end mac mini to play with the OS though but I don't do anything serious on it. Also I'll be able to update my phone 2-3x as long as an android phone. I usually keep a phone for at least 4 years so that's important to me.

I’m not sure how many people have spent multiple years on each iOS and Android but I have. And the experience quality isn’t even comparable. Android feels like using a Windows PC where you are always having to fiddle with some setting, install something, kill a process, fuck with the registry. iOS is absolutely hands-off in a way that nothing else is (including Mac OS). For a touchscreen device people are willing to sacrifice configurability for reliability. As phones become increasingly important to people’s lives they will spend the money to get the good stuff (and, iOS has come down in price, and due to the longevity of the products, is far cheaper over the long run. My wife is still using an iPhone 6S, and it’s still snappy).

I think the iPhone upgrade program is pretty compelling. For a lot of folks that means you can get a new iPhone every year for ~$50/mo, which is pretty manageable for most people. Having the new iPhone every year is fun and conveys a certain status. I’m not sure there’s any Android phone that conveys status. So, that’s probably got a lot to do with it.

Maybe we travel in different circles. Most people I know who get an iphone get a new one when it "breaks" or the battery dies too quickly.

The main reason why I recommend iPhone to any one that asks is because they can just walk any "phone store" and just pick the one that looks the way they want - it doesn't matter which one they pick, they're all excellent phones. Just like Macs used to.

The same reason people pay $100+ for a pair of jeans, simply because of the label.

I don't think that argument works for Apple products. They're expensive rather than exclusive. Nothing about buying an iPhone suggests you have better taste than other people, because mobile phones are basic commodity items these days.

Not among teenagers. I know a lot of teenagers and they judge each other heavily based on whether they have an Apple phone or not. It doesn't even need to be a top of the line Apple phone. It's the little apple on the back that matters more than anything.

Depends. I bought my first iPhone this year because iPhones average about 6-7 years of security and OS updates. I would have stuck with Android, but the best support I could find was 3 years with a Pixel (my last android was a Pixel 3a).

Teenager’s parents money

iPhone is a known quantity. There are a few models, updated every year.

Which of the hundreds of models of "modern Android devices" should one get?

Have you used an Android phone lately?

There's just no comparison.

Yes, iOS and Android developer here. Switched my daily driver from iPhone to a Pixel 3a. Difference is negligible in everything except for cost.

I’ve switched back and forth several times. Nexus, Pixel, OnePlus, Galaxy, multiple generations for all but OnePlus. iPhones 3G and later (on the latest generation). The polish of the experience on iOS still beats android for me, although the last time I tried a pixel I think it was the closest it’s ever been. Google has some cool tricks, but apples integration with the rest of their ecosystem pushes it over the edge for me, and I do have other Google products like home/nest WiFi.

Similar. I mostly got tired of switching back and forth.

It's probably just because I'm used to Android, but whenever I use my company issued iPhone it just feels slugish and unintuitive to me. My android makes me feel like I'm operating a handheld computer with specialized software, an iPhone makes me feel like I picked up some weird foreign device at a farmers market.

I haven't use an apple product since 2015/2016. I switched to android (some junky Chinese phone) because of price, was a downgrade. Now I recently updated to a newer and nicer android device and the whole experience is much nicer than my old Apple product was. What has changed to make there be "no comparison" in your mind? I'm interested.

Is that comparable though? Seems like you're comparing the 2021 Android "experience" to the 2016 Apple "experience."

I'm comparing my 500$ Samsung S10e to my gf's 1200$ iPhone 11 Pro, the difference is there but it's definitely not worth extra 700$.

I said:

> What has changed to make there be "no comparison" in your mind? I'm interested.

I'm asking the question because I genuinely have no idea what's changed in Apple products over the years. I was replying to someone who seems like they have and I was asking for them to explain what's changed and what makes them so much better/worse respectively.

I believe Tim Cook said they have the top two phones in China this past quarter. They were also the top 2 in many (or most) markets. Their global penetration is legit.