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Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by robjan on Saturday July 31, 2021 @10:35AM (#28018486)
There is a huge assumption here that productivity isn't increasing, which is false. Economic output per hour worked has been steadily increasing in every country since their respective industrial revolutions.

When you go to the source tweet, it turns out that it's comparing the developed world to the developing world. Developing economies will always grow faster, but not necessarily efficiently, because there's more low hanging fruit to pick. These low hanging fruit can be picked by throwing more people at the problem (increasing workforce participation or working longer hours).

One example is how much more time it takes to build infrastructure in America vs China. If you look at the data[0], productivity in both countries is growing at roughly the same rate. It pretty much invalidates the assertion in the blog and the source tweet.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-productivity-per-ho...

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lkrubner on Saturday July 31, 2021 @05:09PM (#28021573)
Those are PPP numbers, which means they are a total joke. The graph you post does not show the post war boom, nor does it show the productivity stagnation after 1973. The USA went from 3% per year productivity growth, before 1973, to 1.5% productivity growth after 1973. None of that is visible in the chart because the chart is using PPP numbers.

But, as a separate issue, the above essay is focused on computers, and so it implicitly raises the Solow Productivity Paradox: why don't computers seem to add anything to productivity?

See:

The Solow Productivity Paradox: What Do Computers Do to Productivity?

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-solow-productivity-pa...

McKinsey wrote this in 2018, predicting a productivity boom was coming soon, though of course this prediction has been made often since 1973, and the only time it was even slightly true was during the boom in big box retail 1995-2005:

https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/mckinsey-digital...

It's well known that in the 1800s the telegraph and then the telephone allowed a large scale re-organization of capital, and capital invested heavily to take advantage of the new technologies, but it was impossible to see a productivity benefit. These technologies allowed new systems of control, but not necessarily any productivity benefit. Since 1970 computer network technologies have offered a similar reorganization, but they are vastly more powerful than the telephone, and they allowed a re-organization that was vastly more profound than any previous reorganization of capital. Millions of jobs were outsourced to India, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, and then Brazil, Russia, Romania, etc.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by throwawaylinux on Saturday July 31, 2021 @10:17PM (#28023213)
> But, as a separate issue, the above essay is focused on computers, and so it implicitly raises the Solow Productivity Paradox: why don't computers seem to add anything to productivity?

Just going by eye, there is a pretty sharp trend upward from about 1990-2005, which I think roughly corresponds to the period when the bulk of computerization happened in homes, offices, schools, as well as being put to use in many of the most important embedded applications -- factories and machinery, automobiles, etc.

Eyeballing the trend before 1990 has it continuing to low-$50s, instead it's mid-$60s, a 20% increase.

So why do you think this graph shows computers don't seem to add anything to productivity? I'm not saying they have, but I can't see how that graph demonstrates they haven't.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lkrubner on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:25PM (#28023561)
I can not take credit for Solow Productivity Paradox, all credit needs to go to Solow himself.

The uptick in productivity between 1995 and 2005 is mostly attributable to 2 sectors:

retail

finance

In retail, it was the era of big boxes, lead by WalMart. Basically, it was the era when big retail learned how to take advantage of big databases to better manage inventory. Sadly, this did not seem to be the beginning of a sustained period of higher productivity trends. Rather, it was a one-off innovation.

In finance, much of the uptick involved HFT. Some economists feel this contributed to the crash of 2008, so how much we should celebrate this particular uptick is open to question.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Gibbon1 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:43AM (#28024075)
One of my thoughts is the hard return on efficiency isn't linear.

140 years ago generators were 60% efficient. 20 years later 96% efficient. That's big close to 40% better. 20 years after that 98% efficient. 4% better... Now maybe 99.5% so 1.5% better.

I feel like a lot of things they through computers at to improve productivity are kind already efficient. My mom's first washing machine washed clothes. Mine with a microcomputer also washes clothes. Parents first microwave had a power dial and a mechanical timer. You reheat food in it. Mine with a computer also reheats food.

There is no real fundamental change here.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by throwawaylinux on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:48AM (#28024095)
Do you have a source for that? You're saying a productivity increase that amounted to around 20% across the entire workforce is mostly attributable to advances in HFT and logistics in the retail industry?

Even if we ignore that both of those were probably only made possibly with computers, that seems astounding considering retail and finance makes up less than 20% of the economy by GDP.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lkrubner on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:46AM (#28024569)
So here is a link that is a few years earlier than the one I want, but which covers the productivity numbers in the same way:

https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/reagan-mythbust...

But that was written in 2009, before it was clear that productivity slowed again after 2005.

In a later post, Krugman analyzed the higher productivity of 1995 to 2005 and shows much of it was simply big box stores and HFT.

In general, the period since 1973 has been disappointing for productivity. And as yet, computers have not brought us the kind of sustained productivity growth that we saw in the early to mid 20th Century.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by throwawaylinux on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:43AM (#28025092)
I can't load that page for some reason, and although I don't really like Krugman and certainly if it just comes from a blog with his opinion and vague handwaving in it I don't think it's worth much. But that surprises me that he would have changed his tune so quickly after being famously against HFT, e.g.,

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/opinion/03krugman.html

> It’s hard to imagine a better illustration than high-frequency trading. The stock market is supposed to allocate capital to its most productive uses, for example by helping companies with good ideas raise money. But it’s hard to see how traders who place their orders one-thirtieth of a second faster than anyone else do anything to improve that social function.

> What about Mr. Hall? The Times report suggests that he makes money mainly by outsmarting other investors, rather than by directing resources to where they’re needed. Again, it’s hard to see the social value of what he does.

> And there’s a good case that such activities are actually harmful. For example, high-frequency trading probably degrades the stock market’s function, because it’s a kind of tax on investors who lack access to those superfast computers — which means that the money Goldman spends on those computers has a negative effect on national wealth.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lkrubner on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:40PM (#28028270)
"he would have changed his tune so quickly after being famously against HFT"

He was still against HFT, that was part of his point. He was saying that even some of the surge of 1995-2005 might have been an illusion, because it was "only" HFT. If you feel that HFT really does raise the USA standard of living, then of course you are free to view the surge of 1995-2005 as entirely real.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lkrubner on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:16AM (#28024438)
The link should be here, if Google was working:

solow hft retail site:krugman.blogs.nytimes.com

At the moment Google is acting as if Krugman never mentioned HFT or retail.

Adding to the problem, the New York Times is giving 503 errors over most of Krugman’s old weblog, so perhaps the Times has given up on maintaining the old blog.

Am I allowed to make the joke that Solow’s Productivity Paradox is mostly explained by rampant link rot? But I’m only half kidding, because the rapid way technology breaks down is an obvious hindrance to productivity.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lkrubner on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:51AM (#28024592)
“You're saying a productivity increase that amounted to around 20% across the entire workforce is mostly attributable to advances in HFT and logistics in the retail industry?”

No one ever suggested that. It’s the excess productivity growth of 1995-2005 that is largely attributable to retail and what improvements there were in the productivity of trading financial instruments.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by throwawaylinux on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:48AM (#28025103)
I'm not talking about the total increase of productivity, I'm talking about the roughly 20% it increased beyond where it would have been if the pre-95 trajectory had continued. I.e., the excess. It just doesn't seem like a plausible explanation.

EDIT: going back and looking at the actual numbers rather than eyeballing it's more like 10-12% excess. That's across the entire economy of course, so it would still be a massive increase to attribute that mostly to a subset of retail and finance sectors.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lkrubner on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:42PM (#28028298)
I have a research assistant I hire to deal with FRED for me, since it is really its own specialty, and at some point we will get to the productivity numbers, but I'm not going to engage them simply for a comment on Hacker News. I probably should not be writing on Hacker News, I keep thinking that I should focus my efforts elsewhere. But eventually I'll have more complete work to share with you and the world. Feel free to follow my blog, you'll see an announcement at some point in the next 6 months.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by kktkti9 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:56AM (#28026261)
There are internal corporate studies out there that try to determine which manager or technology brought productivity gains.

The math is so complex they could not draw any conclusions.

Understand; we listened to lesser educated men of the previous generation about building business and economy. Men who missed out on our early education in science, and who were often far more religious. Men who had much different political narratives to satisfy; IBM was gifted government research. How many of our startups are?

Brookings conveniently avoids discussing the weakening political power of the US over the decades; easy to grow when the world needs you to manufacture for it after WW2.

It’s not hard for me to believe much of our economic theory is bullshit, and output is driven by political arrangements. Humans will generate economic activity naturally to survive. One can only induce so much superfluous activity beyond that.

Humans have a history of ignorantly extrapolating the wrong conclusions from reality.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by alexgmcm on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:01AM (#28018684)
I think the tweet linked to by OP is using the colloquial definition of productivity (i.e. I can get more stuff done) and uses examples of computer technology etc.

This isn't to be confused with the economic definition of GDP per hour worked - which has far more to do with the sectors of industry that a country has.

After all, a few financiers doing million-dollar deals is always going to generate more GDP per hour than coltan miners, even though it's not obvious which is actually generating more wealth. Robert F Kennedy famously said the GNP "measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile".

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by failuser on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:07AM (#28018744)
You increase what you optimize for. GDP increase is the stated goal of most current societies and they work to achieve it.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by coldtea on Saturday July 31, 2021 @05:34PM (#28021754)
>There is a huge assumption here that productivity isn't increasing, which is false.

Actually the assumption in the post is the exact opposite: that productivity has increased.

The question it poses then is "so what do we have to show for it?".

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by IkmoIkmo on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:14PM (#28021974)
Cheap clothes, cheap flights, cheap music, movies, cheap food, longer life expectancy, bigger homes with smaller household sizes, cheap washing machines and various appliances, all with far fewer working hours, and far less household work while you're off-work.

I'm definitely better off than my parents or grandparents. Hell, we have stories in our family where my uncles would shower at the communal bathhouse cause their home didn't have a bath nor hot water. Everyone used to wear hand-me-downs. We used to send cassette tapes to family abroad because international calls were so expensive. We flew every few years instead of multiple times a year. We saved up for CDs, and I literally never, ever went out for dinner to a restaurant (outside of a rare holiday) with my parents. My dad lost both parents as a child to old age, my grandfather worked 6, sometimes 7 days a week, my grandmother spent almost the entire day running the household (e.g. washing clothes by hand), they had no retirement and lived like that till death.

I'm often surprised about this idea we've got it worse off. The conversations usually revolve around housing, healthcare and college having become drastically more expensive. (although, never normalised for interest rates that dropped from 15% to 3%, homes that average 2x larger than 60 years ago with fewer people, life expectancy increasing by a decade since 1950 etc etc). Life isn't better in all respects, but on the whole I certainly wouldn't want to trade with past generations. And a lot of that boils down to productivity allowing new measures of wealth for many.

If we look at it on a worldwide scale, the difference is much, much more pronounced. Many lower income countries saw massive productivity improvements. We shouldn't forget that the past 3-4 decades have been all about globalising markets. Factory workers in the US now compete with those in China. IT staff the UK is competing with IT staff in India. Technology is relatively mobile and goes across borders easily. You cannot measure ceteris paribus productivity improvements in terms of gdp per capita in the west without correcting for increased competition abroad (e.g. in China). And in doing so, you will find that there's even bigger productivity increases in lower/middle income countries, too.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by coldtea on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:45PM (#28022136)
>Cheap clothes, cheap flights, cheap music, movies, cheap food, longer life expectancy, bigger homes with smaller household sizes, cheap washing machines and various appliances, all with far fewer working hours, and far less household work while you're off-work.

So, not much then.

For the consumer devices, cheap = disposable, as opposed to consumer devices you bought and could use for decades.

Likewise, cheap clothes mean diminishing quality (regardless of price bracket, from $5 items to $200 brand-name ones, they are all most often than not made in sweatshops in the developing world, often with the same materials and processes). Plus tons of clothes thrown, which is an environmental attrocity.

(As for cheap music and movies, that's a byproduct of one basic delevopment: high speed internet, which enabled a new delivery method. Not the best example of an increase in productivity, not to mention those are passtimes).

As for "longer life expectancy", all accounts I've read say that we got that early on in the 20th century, so 100+ years ago, and it was due to running water, bathrooms, hand washing, and a few such things. Low hanging fruit. Certainly not due to the last 70+ years of "increased productivity".

Meanwhile we pay more for healthcare, housing, and education (the 3 things that matter more), wages have stagnated since the 70s, and work-life balance has gotten infinitely worse, depression ever more prevalent, the middle and working classes have collapsed, and so on. No savings and no chance of retirement at any reasonable age for the majority as well.

>I'm often surprised about this idea we've got it worse off.

Probably it's from people who are not impressed by more and cheaper trinkets.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by harryh on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:12PM (#28022244)
As for "longer life expectancy", all accounts I've read say that we got that early on in the 20th century

In the US, life expectancy at birth was around 53 in 1921. Today it's almost 79. That's a nearly 50% increase.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-...

It's a particularly interesting time to discount the life extension benefits of modern technology. We just saw multiple vaccines get developed and deployed in record time to significantly reduce the death toll from a worldwide pandemic. It's unlikely we would have seen this remarkable success even a decade ago.

Much of the rest of what you say is also inconsistent with actual data.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by ALittleLight on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:07PM (#28022542)
I think your graph is a good illustration of the loss of productivity. Compare the gains between 1900 and 1920 and 2000 and 2020. The earlier period saw an 11% gain in life expectancy, compared to a 2% gain in the latter period. Just looking at the line in your graph you can tell progress is slowing down.

Why did we make more progress before and less later? We have better tools, computers, and software. We have more people, both in the US and coming in from worldwide along with a greater portion of the population being college educated and free to work on scientific and engineering problems. We have better developed theories of biological, chemical, and physical systems. And yet, when we knew very little, had little resources, and few people working on the problem - we made huge strides. Now, not so much.

Maybe this issue is that we've already plucked the low hanging fruit. That doesn't seem quite right to me though. Even if we have, we should be equipped, via the advantages I referenced earlier, to pick higher fruits.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by IkmoIkmo on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:37PM (#28022708)
I wouldn't be at all surprised that there's going to be slowdowns of growth in various areas, some things are by definition going to be constrained in terms of space/resources. (e.g. growth of # home units in New York City) I don't think infinite liniear or infinite exponential growth is the expectation.

That having been said, for this particular example (life expectancy) it's typically a bit better to look at life expectancy at age x, often 5, 10 or 15 are chosen.

It's because infant mortality used to be sky-high, as 25% (one in four) in 1900 and 16% (one in 6) in 1950 worldwide, to < 2.9% today, with the best countries now around 0.2%.

If say one in four humans becomes virtually zero years old, that skews the average down a lot, e.g. from 65 to 40. But it doesn't mean that the average person who makes it through the first few years would've died at age 40.

If we look at improvements of life expectancy for those who already raeached age 10, it looks like this and is a pretty straight line with fewer indications of slowing down. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-at-age-10...

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by hedora on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:38AM (#28024301)
I think you’re reading too much into “life expectancy at birth”. Life expectancy at age 20 hasn’t moved nearly as much. The big wins were reductions in deaths during childhood.

Not to sound harsh, but the main economic benefit is that now people need to have fewer children to maintain a stable population.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by harryh on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:56AM (#28025943)
Frankly, as a parent, I think "fewer dead children" is a pretty big deal. Perhaps one of the biggest improvements in human welfare that one would hope to see in society.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by bonzini on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:59AM (#28024903)
In the late 80s life expectancy in Italy was around 70, now it's well above 80, and a large part of the difference is due to how many died 55-65 to cardiovascular problems or cancer.

A lot more of my relatives died of heart attack or cancer in the 80s than those from the next generation did in the last ten years. In fact in the last few years I witnessed many people getting surgery for those same heart issues or cancer that would have killed you a couple decades back.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Godel_unicode on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:44AM (#28027090)
I've heard this argument a surprising number of times, and I must say I find this degree of callousness about dead children to be utterly horrifying.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by patrick451 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:39PM (#28028261)
> It's a particularly interesting time to discount the life extension benefits of modern technology. We just saw multiple vaccines get developed and deployed in record time to significantly reduce the death toll from a worldwide pandemic. It's unlikely we would have seen this remarkable success even a decade ago.

Which appear to be uniquely dangerous and ineffective, so it's odd to use them as an example of progress. Besides that, mRNA is not a new thing. What's new is the EUA.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by coldtea on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:37AM (#28023825)
>In the US, life expectancy at birth was around 53 in 1921. Today it's almost 79. That's a nearly 50% increase.

This has nothing to do with productivity rise and where do we see its results (what is discussed here), but about the merits of technology.

Even so, the raise in life expectancy at birth is about those low hanging hygiene practices (nothing to do with post 1950 techology) and a few vaccines (most of which available before 1950s).

Not any big technological breakthroughs, like artificial hearts and so on (which hardly make a dent), and with extremely little to do with any post 1950s tech.

So the question of the article in the domain still remains, where's all this benefit from the productivity rise.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by harryh on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:59AM (#28025962)
As you can see from my link, life expectancy at birth was around 67 in 1950. There has been an 18% increase since then.

You continue to make claims that are inconsistent with the data.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:56PM (#28023683)
>We just saw multiple vaccines get developed and deployed in record time

But can you show me the exact breakthrough that came by this pouring of resources into the research, and that enabled such vaccines, by removing blockers that blocked such vaccines for decades?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by hedora on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:35AM (#28024292)
The main vaccine “innovation” was that the FDA decided to finally approve an mRNA therapy. Moderna’s been trying to get such things approved for about a decade.

So, the “breakthrough” was a brief suspension of questionable bureaucratic barriers. (Temporary suspension of “Dissipation” from the article.)

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:51AM (#28024343)
>So, the “breakthrough” was a brief suspension of questionable bureaucratic barriers. (Temporary suspension of “Dissipation” from the article.)

So as I doubted.

Naturally, the next question would be "What was the questionable bureaucratic barriers" that was temporary suspended. It really blows my mind that the answers to this is not widely known. It is kind of disturbing..

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:55PM (#28023677)
>Today it's almost 79. That's a nearly 50% increase.

What about the quality of life? We know that people are getting sicker at a younger age, and if we consider that in addition to the ever increasing cost of the treatments, it does not appear to be a net positive.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by bonzini on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:03AM (#28024929)
I would guess that those who are getting sicker at younger would just have died.

Let's say hypertension is now diagnosed at 50 instead of 70. How many people used to die of a stroke between 50 and 70 due to undiagnosed hypertension?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:31AM (#28025048)
How many people used to NOT have hypertension, and other cardiovascular issues, for want of exercises and other physical activities? Thanks to increase tech addiction in form of 24x7 chitchat using smartphones and video games..

So it technology take away some and then give back some (not without a huge cost, mind you), how can you evaluate its impact on human existence?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by codefreakxff on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:21PM (#28022289)
You are selectively picking one example from the parent post and making a rather personal attack. There’s no need for that. Stick to your argument and don’t make it personal.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by op00to on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:47PM (#28022436)
You couldn’t be more wrong, or more dismissive. Ask a working single mother whether inexpensive, effective appliances are a significant productivity and quality of life enhancer.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by ALittleLight on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:12PM (#28022563)
This reminds me of Simpson's Paradox in the sense that it may be true that life is better for a single mother because modern appliances make life easier but it is also true that society has greatly increased the number of single mothers. In 1980 18% of births were to single mothers compared to 40% in 2020[1].

It's possible that the amount of single mother suffering has increased even though the suffering per single mother may have decreased. (No change, I expect, in the children's suffering)

1 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/276025/us-percentage-of-...

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Negitivefrags on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:46AM (#28024329)
That statistic sounds totally wrong and after looking at your source it is highly misleading. It’s just if the parents were married at birth.

Of the people I know with kids like 50% of them were not married when they started having kids. They either got married latter or never married because there was no advantage to do so and they didn’t care.

Yet none of them are what you would call “single mothers”. They are all still together with the fathers of their children.

So basically it says more about marriage than it does about parenting.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by ALittleLight on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:18AM (#28024439)
If you have better data I'm happy to look at that. I agree that cohabiting are likely more common now and it is possibly more common to get married just after birth than it used to be.

Table CH-1 from this census website shows that children living with a single parent goes from 10% in 1960 to 36% in 2020. (=E13/C13) I'm not certain but I think they are accounting for cohabiting parents here because they don't use any language related to marriage and the census could tell if the parents were cohabiting or not.

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families...

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by CapricornNoble on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:04AM (#28023710)
>>>No change, I expect, in the children's suffering

Drug use, gang activity, and other criminality are all positively correlated with single-parent households, and some data shows even MORE positively correlated with single-mother, as opposed to single-father, households.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/single-p...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316649639_The_effec...

https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/report/the-real-r....

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by op00to on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:55PM (#28022792)
Again, we can go deeper. How many single mothers would be forced to remain in otherwise abusive situations but for the fact that she is able to both work and care for her family due to “progress”?
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by ALittleLight on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:54PM (#28023676)
My cursory look for some evidence suggests single mothers see dramatically elevated rates of violence and abuse. This source surveys children who live with both parents and just one. Children living with just one are seven times as likely to have witnessed someone hitting their mother in the past year than children living with both parents. I take that to mean that the increase in single motherhood means there is more domestic abuse happening than if no such increase had taken place.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/children-in-single-parent-familie...

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by bonzini on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:07AM (#28024951)
Or maybe those women are now single mothers because they were able to escape their abusers. You would have to compare data across decades, and adjust for people being more/less willing to disclose abuse.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Ma8ee on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:54PM (#28028847)
I very much agree with you. I grew up without microwave oven or dishwasher. Neither of those are essential in any way, but claiming that those don’t provide great time savers for parents (single or not) with small children would be ridiculous.

I don’t remember where I saw the numbers, but in 1980 a microwave cost more than a months (average) salary. Today I can buy a good one for less than half a day’s earnings.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by coldtea on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:39AM (#28023832)
Ask a working single mother is she would trade "inexpensive, effective appliances" to 1960s era healthcare, housing/rent, and education costs, and working/middle class job availability.

The answer might suprise you...

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by actually_a_dog on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:31AM (#28024754)
I don’t think quite as many “working/middle class job(s)” were available to single mothers in the 1960s as you seem to be claiming.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by hellbannedguy on Saturday July 31, 2021 @10:16PM (#28023202)
Wow--

I have never heard anyone say, "Bosh made my life easier"

And it reminds me I'm on my second pump for a E12 error.

(After tossing too many Bosh appliances, I finally got lucky repairing one. The guys on the internet helped.)

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Ma8ee on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:00PM (#28028895)
There’s nothing forcing you to use any electric appliances, with the possible exception the stove if you to make warm food and don’t have access to a wood stove. Try a week washing the dishes by hand, doing your laundry in the sink or in the bathtub. I’m sure you’ll be a bit embarrassed about your above comment after that.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by bonzini on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:09AM (#28024961)
You probably should ask someone who was born in the 1920s. If you asked a middle class woman in the 50s to choose between a car and a washing machine, I would bet she would pick the washing machine.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by jrockway on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:16PM (#28022588)
> For the consumer devices, cheap = disposable, as opposed to consumer devices you bought and could use for decades.

How nicely should a consumer device be made? I feel like technological improvements make the device obsolete and disposable, so making the build quality higher just artificially slows down iteration time. (Why will 5G be widely adopted? Because eventually everyone will drop their 4G phone down the stairs or the battery will be uneconomical to replace.)

If you go back and look at old appliances, they basically have no value despite being well built. They don't solve the problem they were designed to solve anymore. A shitty laptop from Amazon is a whole different piece of technology compared to a hand-crafted Apple 1 from 1976, enabling you to do things that people wouldn't have even dreamed of when the Apple 1 came out. So making it "survive the test of time" is futile -- that computer isn't garbage because it was put together sloppily, it's garbage because technology advanced past it. (Probably a bad example, I think the Apple 1 was just a circuit board cobbled together in a garage.)

I feel like even consumer appliances have changed. Clothes washers use significantly less water. Stoves use precise electronic control instead of burning flammable gas that gets piped into your home. TVs display content on-demand, with 8.3 million individually-colored pixels and 6 channels of sound. Computers connect to a library where you can read pretty much any book ever written, right in your home. Technology changes so people discard their old devices and replace them with new ones. It's not just some scam to make companies that can't innovate some cheap money. Everything has a lifetime, and sometimes it's shorter than the lifetime of the physical materials that the device is built from.

Maybe you don't need any of that, and just want to read novels from the 1950s with your dog in a log cabin. That's totally legit, but where you think people excited about 4k TVs are weird, they probably think you're weird.

Honestly, I think phones are something people hate the most for being a little too breakable, but thinking about it more deeply, I think the right tradeoffs were made. They last as long as they need to on average. 10 years ago, the technology (hardware, software, connectivity, design, everything) was immature. So they broke more and cost less, because you were going to need to upgrade. Now we have $1200 phones, and they are a little nicer, and the technology isn't changing enough to make them obsolete every 6 months. This all sounds about right to me. I have a $1000 phone and thoughts about upgrading it haven't crossed my mind in the ~3 years I've had it. That is very different from the phones I had before that, where I felt like they were compromises on the day they came out. (And hey, I only paid $300 for them.)

TL;DR: maybe everything isn't awful all the time.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by hellbannedguy on Saturday July 31, 2021 @10:24PM (#28023260)
In terms of entertainment, I was happy with 40 cable channels, and seeing a great movie every once in awhile.

Hell, I was happy kid watching free cartoons on the Zenith?

While tech got bettter talent seems to have nosed dived? (exception being a lot of free talent on youtube)

The pure talent of the 60's-70's was magic, and that era was before my time?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by chii on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:40AM (#28023834)
The fact that more entertainment is available is the growth in wealth, not that it is suitable for your tastes.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:35PM (#28023593)
>Why will 5G be widely adopted?

I think we should reject 5G as a community.

Not because any danger of radiation. But I think people should be able to say "This is enough", and stop ourselves to be forced to think "We need moar!", thus put some block to this progress for the sake of progress..

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Godel_unicode on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:53AM (#28027173)
Yeah, and what's with these mechanised looms, hand-operated is fine.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:44PM (#28031726)
>hand-operated is fine...

May be it was.

You make a poor argument, because resources are limited, and "progress" will have to wait at some point. Human race can either opt into slower progress to match the available resources, or be selected out.

Indiscriminate growth is a hallmark of cancerous things. You can detect it, cut it out and attempt to survive, or surely die with it.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Godel_unicode on Monday August 02, 2021 @01:05AM (#28033106)
Progress doesn't have to imply more consumption, there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources.

Finally, with regard to poor arguments, you should probably read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Monday August 02, 2021 @01:21AM (#28033165)
> there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources.

Obviously that is not the kind of progress we were talking about here in the context of transitioning to 5G here.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Godel_unicode on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:07AM (#28033377)
It's literally exactly what we're talking about. You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g (aside from the significantly increased density per tower requiring fewer towers) is all the energy savings baked into 5g-nr. Try not to believe the hype.

https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2019/9/energy-consumption-5...

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by mdp2021 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:58AM (#28047038)
> requiring fewer towers

It is the first time I hear this: the usual narrative is that it would require more towers. (And the idea of the emitters being more pervasive in the territory is one of the main concerns of some).

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:30AM (#28033849)
> You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g

True.

> Up to 15 percent energy savings with software features

'Upto 15 percent' sounds alike it is a very optimistic estimate, (you know when they advertise 'upto 50% discount' most of the products are discounted at much lower rate). And it does not seem that this power saving is also dependent on network traffic. So I am not really convinced.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by telxos on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:30AM (#28025526)
No doubt. We are so spoiled we just take all our advances as a given.

On top of all this so many people are doing more interesting work. My father didn't just work 7 days a week, sometimes 16 hour days but he did that doing something so boring to me I would rather be homeless or dead.

Healthcare is more expensive because it saves people's lives.

Healthcare is really the best example that we are just spoiled children who can not be satisfied no matter what Santa brings for Christmas. Even getting extra years of life isn't good enough because it "cost too much".

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by RedXIII on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:01AM (#28025669)
Isn't this always true? If you were born three hundred years ago you could have just listed off some recent technological development and concluded everyone was spoiled babies.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by _sillymarketing on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:43AM (#28025875)
True in recent history, but not always. For 200k years, humans lived the same exact life as their parents.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by nonameiguess on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:09PM (#28022549)
Amen.

You know what? I paid double what my parents paid for the house I really think of as my childhood house that they bought in 1989, and I paid more than quadruple what they paid for our actual first house in 1979. But my house is also double the size, it's downtown in a major metro, I'm not going to have to rebuild it from the inside out because it's not falling apart and everything already works. There is no asbestos in my walls, no lead in my paint.

I guess I'm paying more for healthcare, but I also get better healthcare. I suffered severe spine damage in the Army, but I'm basically fine now thanks to procedures and techniques that didn't exist 20 years ago. I had severe pneumonia when I was 5. If I'd been born prior to 1928 when antibiotics were invented, I would have just died as a child and wouldn't even be here to be paying for anything.

My grandparents, man. One of my grandfathers effectively worked, grueling manual labor, until the day he died. The other one died with nothing, left in a nursing home rotting with Alzheimer's for the last decade while con-artists tricked him out of what little he could have left to his children. And he experienced unimaginable horrors as a young adult. His ship in the South Pacific in 1945 was destroyed and he survived for six weeks on a raft drinking fish blood. I served 8 years in the Army on a tank crew and I can't even imagine what these people from earlier generations went through. My grandmother literally murdered someone when she was a teenager. I guess it's a minor miracle she never went to prison, but I suppose the police just didn't bother policing the segregated Mexican neighborhoods back then, which is probably why she was killing people.

I have no idea where this idea comes from that we're worse off than our parents. I guess it's because the people believing this kind of thing are mostly writers in a collapsing industry who came from upper middle class highly educated backgrounds? Well, guess what? A lot of us didn't and we're way better off than our parents and grandparents.

College got more expensive. Great, but I was the first person on either side of my family in any generation to even go to college. The idea of getting educated at all and not working your entire life doing manual labor would have been an unimaginable luxury to my great-grandfather who grew up picking cotton and taught himself stonemasonry.

These people who think it's been so downhill since the 70s. Do you seriously not remember the 80s and 90s? I was with my dad and got trapped doing side jobs during the LA riots. Over 60 people were murdered. The National Guard enforcing curfews and perimeters in the nation's second largest city. Nowadays we flip out that a single woman died trying to break into the capitol. My school got shot at in drive-bys more times than I can remember. We weren't allowed to wear red, blue, or Raider's jerseys because the school district was so afraid gangs would kill us for it. My sister's best friend was murdered.

I guess life was great in the 70s for the 0.0001% of the world population employed on the factory floors of major US auto manufacturers, and it sucks those opportunities dried up, but man is it myopic to act like that's the only thing that has happened in the last 50 years.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lovich on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:34PM (#28022687)
> Do you seriously not remember the 80s and 90s?

The average American is something like 39 years old atm. That means the average birth date is 1982 so most people probably do not remember the 80s and only barely remember the 90s. If you were alive when your parents bought a house in the 70s then you have lived a life that most Americans don’t have a connection to. You were in the golden years and wonder why people don’t have the same view you do?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by lmnop1234 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:44AM (#28024810)
>These people who think it's been so downhill since the 70s.

Hmmm. Old enough to remember the 70s (and 60s and a bit of the 50s).

It's easy enough to cast about for a few real advantages of modern times.

. The ability to type to this forum. Essentially a Usenet group with a different interface.

. Replacement of Sears with Amazon

. Video on demand

. LED lightbulbs

. Greatly improved medical care in some areas, particularly surgery.

. Faster closing on stock trades.

A time traveler from 1965 would notice nothing unusual about my house aside from the flat panel TV.

I think that aside from some healthcare tech, I'd willingly trade cheaper beachfront property and skinnier / more athletic kids for 99% of modern advances.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Fricken on Saturday July 31, 2021 @09:05PM (#28022833)
Itt: people being willfully ignorant about climate change.

If we have to destroy the planet to have these things, which we are, then none of it is productive. Quite the opposite.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by perl4ever on Saturday July 31, 2021 @10:45PM (#28023392)
I make about 20% of what people claim the SV crowd earns.

I just filled up my gas tank. It cost me about $23, or around 6 cents per mile. Somewhere around $3.

I could still afford to drive a fair amount even if gas cost ten times what it does now. There's no guarantee that would reduce demand enough.

But if gas was made extremely expensive, then aren't we going to see this, but bigger?

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_protests
My idea is to have a huge fuel tax, but to return it to each citizen in equal amounts, not use it for general purposes, so that people who really need to burn a lot of fuel can, but those who don't are incentivized not to.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Gibbon1 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:50PM (#28023656)
I've come around to the idea that we should put excise taxes on the sale of new cars that use fossil fuels and use the revenue to help working class people replace their existing gasoline cars with electric[1]. The idea is help people do what you want them to do instead of apply the rubber hose.

[1] One way to think about that is you force people buying new cars to be carbon neutral by paying to retire existing cars.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by perl4ever on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:13AM (#28024213)
The goal is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. In order to do that, it has to be done in a way that the masses will not revolt and eliminate the political leaders who want to prevent climate change.

I think that your suggestion, while I guess it's mainstream and basically what's already being done in most places, is guaranteed to fail in both respects.

If we tax one thing and subsidize another, without any linkage to CO2 emissions, then we will not get the reductions we need.

We cannot reconcile the idea that CO2 is the problem, while maintaining that some CO2 is more equal than others.

Can you explain further why you do not like the idea of pursuing the goal that matters, and prefer substituting one that doesn't?

Do you personally, at work, observe how metrics and KPIs that aren't chosen well, lead to bad behavior?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Gibbon1 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:42AM (#28024800)
I see the fundamental problem is dependence on existing capital assets that emit CO2. Like gasoline and diesel cars and trucks. Focusing that seems reasonable that you a) don't want people to buy new ones. 2) want to expedite the retirement of current ones.

Putting an excise tax on new fossil fueled cars would discourage manufacture and sales. Using the revenue to help working class people retire and replace their older fossil fueled vehicles with zero emissions ones reduces the number currently in service. The key word with that is 'help' as in help that do what's needed. Instead of carbon taxes which punish working class people for not doing something unspecified to fix the problem.

That said I also support banning production of fossil fuel powered cars with enough forewarning that industry and the economy can adjust.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by perl4ever on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:44PM (#28032062)
>I see the fundamental problem is dependence on existing capital assets that emit CO2

I don't think you're wrong, but an opinion like you're expressing doesn't say what, who, how it should be done. It doesn't set a goal that can be achieved, and it doesn't imply that success would solve the problem of reducing global CO2 levels.

Have you ever had a project manager tell you how to write code?

>carbon taxes which punish working class people

That's why the revenue needs to be sent right back to the people in equal amounts.

If that isn't good enough, it doesn't mean carbon taxes are less necessary. You haven't stated why it won't work or is not necessary in a way that I can understand yet.

Doing other things seems to me like the ultimate example of "looking for your keys under the streetlight even though you dropped them in the dark".

Or, it's like the joke "we must do something; this is something, therefore we must do it".

Building things produces CO2. People will argue endlessly about how much. It's impossible for everyone to agree on the facts, but the quantity matters.

We don't want any particular activity or product to be generated, we want less CO2. If we reward specific things that are associated currently with less CO2 but don't logically entail it, it will be a very short time until people optimize those goals by producing more CO2.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by erik_seaberg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:44AM (#28023851)
I need to see most streets and apartment lots lined with chargers. I don’t personally have permission to install any.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by Godel_unicode on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:03PM (#28027271)
And if you're poor and have to live far from your job (because you're poor) screw you? There are a lot of people who will be locked out of driving by this because they don't have the float to overpay for gasoline and wait for the refund.

If the US had better public transit options, then maybe. But you have to do that first.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by forcry on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:31PM (#28023581)
>My idea is to have a huge fuel tax, but to return it to each citizen in equal amounts, not use it for general purposes, so that people who really need to burn a lot of fuel can, but those who don't are incentivized not to.

Interesting. Have you described it in detail somewhere?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by 2arrs2ells on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:49PM (#28023651)
This general idea is called a revenue neutral carbon tax: ex https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2019/07/revenue-neutral-c...
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by perl4ever on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:16AM (#28024223)
But people seem negative on it recently, and I'm not sure why.

I don't see any feasible alternative and I'm getting cognitive dissonance from people who are getting more vocal about climate change being an emergency and aren't pushing this.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by rfrey on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:51PM (#28023667)
The notion of a carbon tax being revenue neutral is pretty widespread, in fact I think most carbon taxes are designed that way.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by perl4ever on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:55AM (#28024129)
I'm unclear on the gap between the "notion" and the protests in France.

The Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend) is kind of inconsistent - it says that a revenue neutral tax is a "conservative" idea, then it has more about a "universal climate income" under "social justice".

Widespread is not the same thing as generally accepted. I think I've been reading vaguely hostile stuff recently about carbon taxes from vaguely progressive sources, but I'm not sure why.

I'm wondering if progressives are against it because it's considered conservative.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by rfrey on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:53AM (#28033026)
I think one of the reasons is that it is a market-based solution that allows companies to pollute as long as they are willing to pay for it. Many progressives prefer an approach of behaviour and lifestyle modifications.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by perl4ever on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:53PM (#28044193)
>I think one of the reasons is that it is a market-based solution that allows companies to pollute as long as they are willing to pay for it. Many progressives prefer an approach of behaviour and lifestyle modifications.

I don't see how that hypothesis is compatible with regarding climate change as an existential threat.

I mean, maybe it is potentially the end of the world for practical purposes, and maybe it isn't.

But if it is, then concentrating on behavior modifications that are appealing to impose independently of CO2 levels seems like an expression of either a desire for human extinction or of a disbelief in the problem.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by perl4ever on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:19AM (#28024239)
It seems to be a right wing proposal that's been around for some time. That must be why I either didn't run across it or forgot; I mostly ignore conservative media.
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by epicureanideal on Saturday July 31, 2021 @05:54PM (#28021869)
It might be that we're spending the increased productivity on temporary things rather than long-lived things. For example, spending $1M on keeping a retired cancer patient alive. That's good for them, good for their family, good for lots of people to feel like they'll have a chance of survival if they get it, but it doesn't cause a new bridge to be built, etc. The technology improves, the knowledge improves, but those things aren't visible on a skyline.

It might also be things like higher quality food, varieties of food, yachts for the rich that most of us don't ever see, or things like that, things that are either consumed and don't accumulate wealth, or things that are relatively long lived and durable but not part of most people's lives because most of the gains have gone to the top 1%.

Other ideas: paper pushing services like handling unnecessarily large volumes of litigation just to run a business, which requires work and causes GDP to go up but doesn't produce actual products.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @10:52AM (#28018616)
> These low hanging fruit can be picked by throwing more people at the problem (increasing workforce participation or working longer hours).

I haven't read the article yet, but note increasing workforce participation or working hours doesn't increase productivity - that just increases the denominator for the productivity calculation, and unless it increases the numerator faster there is no productivity increase.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by robjan on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:00AM (#28018674)
This is why I said "not necessarily efficiently". At a very macro level, you can increase economic output by either working more or increasing efficiency (productivity per hour).
Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by babesh on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:46PM (#28022140)
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-productivity-per-ho...

Are you sure about that? Are you measuring in absolute GDP per person or rate of growth per person?

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by onlyrealcuzzo on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:23AM (#28018916)
GDP doesn't take into consideration public debt.

If public debt is up 100% and GDP has barely changed - I don't think that's cause for celebration that GDP / hours worked = we are more productive.

I'm not saying this is the case. But people use GDP a lot to make points like this - and it's important to talk about how much public debt is increasing GDP.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by skywal_l on Saturday July 31, 2021 @12:12PM (#28019380)
If you are in a country where pensions are managed by the state, your contributions are considered taxes. If you are in a country with a private pension system, your contributions are in the GDP!

The GDP is not a scientific measure. It is an ideological concept.

It doesn't mean it is useless, but it should not be taken at face value.

Re:Where has all the productivity gone? by karatinversion on Saturday July 31, 2021 @04:41PM (#28021389)
Taxed income isn’t subtracted from income in national accounts though...?