News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by benrbray on Thursday July 22, 2021 @09:12AM (#27918415)
What?? I've never met anyone who thinks that. Personally I think it's a very hard standard to beat. I rarely see a document with a non standard font that wouldn't look better in computer modern. Especially for math.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by crazygringo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:52AM (#27919589)
That's probably because you're just used to it.

To any professional type designer, it's a terribly balanced font aesthetically, basically every letterform. It looks like a font designed by an engineer, not a designer who knows how to create and balance shapes and lines that are pleasing and easy to the eye. Which, of course, is exactly what it is.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by benrbray on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:35AM (#27920088)
> It looks like a font designed by an engineer, not a designer

This is exactly why I like it. Designed by an engineer for the purpose of typesetting engineering articles and books.

Most of the other alternative fonts feel like they were designed by a designer with all the unnecessary flairs that would make a great title/heading font to pad the portfolio but are needlessly distracting in a paragraph of dense technical text interspersed with equations.

Keep in mind that Google / Facebook / Twitter / Apple / Microsoft / etc hire hordes of professional designers and the result is a horrible user experience for everyone. I much prefer Wikipedia and Hacker News to most "modern" web design by professionals.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by crazygringo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @12:15PM (#27920718)
I don't know where you're getting "unnecessary flair" from. What unnecessary flair do fonts like Times New Roman or Baskerville or Bodoni have? (Obviously I'm comparing with other similar fonts traditionally used for body text typesetting with equations.)

I'm talking about good sense of aesthetic proportion and balance, not "flair".

And what exactly is the horrible user experience that Google has created with Roboto, or Apple with San Francisco, or Microsoft with Calibri? They're actually quite excellently balanced and pleasing fonts for their purposes.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by hocuspocus on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:48AM (#27920268)
> Most of the other alternative fonts feel like they were designed by a designer with all the unnecessary flairs that would make a great title/heading font to pad the portfolio but are needlessly distracting in a paragraph of dense technical text interspersed with equations.

Serious alternatives were designed by foundries decades or even centuries ago.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by suprfsat on Thursday July 22, 2021 @03:38PM (#27923241)
Hacker News is in Verdana, which was designed for Microsoft.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by leephillips on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:10PM (#27921525)
You’re both wrong. It was designed by a mathematician, for use in printing mathematical books.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by SeanLuke on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:19PM (#27962155)
Computer Modern is largely a copy of Monotype Modern, which dates from 1896. Monotype Modern was, I assure you, not designed by a mathematician nor was designed for use in printing math books. However many math books had lately been printed using typefaces similar to Modern, and Knuth liked how it looked.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by cnity on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:24AM (#27919962)
Every criticism I've seen of Computer Modern is an appeal to authority.

> not a designer who knows how to create and balance shapes and lines that are pleasing and easy to the eye

"Your subjective opinion of the font is wrong, because you're not an expert." If OP and GP (and honestly, most people I know) like the font, how is it not pleasing to the eye? What does it mean for the "aesthetics" to be "_terribly_" balanced?

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by crazygringo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @12:13PM (#27920682)
It's not an appeal to authority, but rather to shared taste.

It's true there's no reference manual for the equations for pleasing shapes, because however our preferences are expressed in our brain, we haven't been able to decode.

But to give one example to your question: the serifs in Computer Modern are thicker than the thin stems of letterforms. That's ugly, full stop. It's not balanced -- the proportions of thicknesses is backwards. The entire function of serifs is to taper and/or finish, never to add weight.

Or another: the loop (lower part) of the double-story lowercase "g" simply extends way too far to the right. It makes the letter feel like it's going to tilt and fall over to the left. It's not balanced, period.

So these are just two examples of terrible balance. Does that hopefully answer your question in a way that isn't an appeal to authority?

Edit: curious why I'm being downvoted for this comment, when I'm just trying to answer the parent comment with actual examples.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by svat on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:10PM (#27923694)
> the serifs in Computer Modern are thicker than the thin stems of letterforms.

1. Is this really true? I went to the bookshelf and pulled out three Knuth books, and at least to my eye, the serifs don't look noticeably thicker than the letter stems in the unbalanced way you mentioned. The exact proportions could be found by checking Volume E or generating proofs from the Metafont sources (haven't tried that), but this seems like the well-known problem with the "spindly" Type-1 versions of CM that many people use today, than in Knuth's actual Computer Modern as in his printed books. (See https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/361722/48 for pictures.)

2. Is this any worse in Computer Modern than in Monotype Modern, the typeface that Knuth was trying to reproduce? This is the font used for TAOCP Vol 1 first edition (1968), Vol 2 first edition (1969), Vol 3 first edition (1973) and Vol 1 second edition (1973). Those books were typeset with hot-metal typesetting (on Monotype machines), and in fact when Addison-Wesley approached Knuth in 1962 (when he was in grad school) to write a book, he was excited because he loved the appearance of their books. The publishers' move to phototypesetting could not recapture that look, and digital typesetting was starting to become feasible, so he took up the problem himself: he wanted to reproduce Monotype Modern so he needed TeX to typeset it, and Metafont to specify it (and Computer Modern was the result).

My guess is that the opinion you're expressing results from a combination of both the above:

• Yes, what Knuth was aiming for (Monotype Modern 8A, or the look of math textbooks he used as a student, or mathematical journals of a certain period: https://projecteuclid.org:443/euclid.bams/1183544082 ) was very much an early 20th-century / late 19th-century look, and it seems the fashion in contemporary typography circles (I suspect this started with William Morris in the 19th century already) to look down on that period and all that it entails (like larger spaces between sentences: witness Bringhurst's comments about "In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design" etc). So, people au fait with modern typographical fashions don't quite like the associated style (Scotch Roman typefaces, etc), while many mathematicians quite prefer it.

• The poor Type 1 versions of Computer Modern cause the letter stems to appear thin, and even more so on low-resolution devices like monitors, causing the serifs to appear thicker in comparison.

Personally, comparing Monotype Modern (as in the first editions of TAOCP) and Computer Modern (in print, and using "true" CM), I don't think Computer Modern looks worse than the source typeface in terms of having terrible balance or appearing like "a font designed by an engineer"; the issue is probably more the "shared taste" you mentioned: Knuth's target aesthetic was itself different.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by corty on Thursday July 22, 2021 @02:24PM (#27922450)
The slight unbalance and the not-totally-uniform looks make cmr much more readable. The breaking with the typesetting tradition makes it better, because it is unhindered by such useless flourishes as "must taper" or "must look like any other letter fitting into a uniform box of equal greying when smudged". cmr does this while still looking good and pleasing when viewed in whole paragraphs as opposed to single letters.

And where cmr absolutely excels is the accompanying greek, math symbols and typesetting. Nothing else comes even close in getting it readable, pleasing and uniform.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by crazygringo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:38PM (#27923995)
> The slight unbalance and the not-totally-uniform looks make cmr much more readable.

That's frankly a very idiosyncratic take, and not one many professionals would agree with.

By that logic, toolbars with icons would become easier to use if their icons were all slightly off-center from each other -- which is very much not the case.

Part of reading legibility comes from the shapes of words, not letters by themselves. Generally speaking, we read words -- not letters. When individual letters are off balance or especially non-uniform, they draw attention to themselves rather than making the word coherent as a whole. This, of course, is one of the reasons why kerning pairs are so important.

Also, tapering isn't a "flourish" it's just how roman serifs work. And "uniform box of equal greying when smudged" is neither a flourish nor a rule at all, it appears to be something you've invented.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by cnity on Friday July 23, 2021 @04:54AM (#27928613)
I actually appreciate this answer and am sorry you're getting downvotes.

That said, the given justifications still seem subjective to me (why should serifs only taper? I actually like the added weight because it seems to emphasize the orientation of the letter. Why should fonts be scrutinized according to the laws of physics?).

I suppose to some degree the difficulty I'm having is what I view as an over-emphasis on objectivity in a discussion about aesthetics. Not that your perspective is wrong per se, but I find it hard to ignore the strong preference among my peers for choosing (and commenting positively on) this font.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by BrandoElFollito on Friday July 23, 2021 @10:38AM (#27931168)
Completely outside of that topic: how do you know that are being downvoted? I do not see any indication (is it a matter of rep?)
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by cnity on Friday July 23, 2021 @11:06AM (#27931498)
You can see the points on your own posts indicated to the left of your name.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by BrandoElFollito on Friday July 23, 2021 @11:22AM (#27931690)
Yes, but you were sorry that they were being downvoted. i thought you saw the score on their post somewhere.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by cnity on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:56AM (#27957566)
No, I am taking them on their word.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by mcguire on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:03PM (#27923603)
"The serifs in Computer Modern are thicker than the thin stems of letterforms."

That's true of all serif fonts with thin stems, no?

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by crazygringo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:39PM (#27924013)
No. Bodoni is the quintessential thin-stem font, and you can see that the serifs are simply a continuation of the thin stroke, not any thicker:

https://www.google.com/search?q=bodoni&tbm=isch

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by jhanschoo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @07:45PM (#27925699)
CM is really light. As an undergrad I had more trouble reading poor quality photocopies of notes in CM that my own notes not using CM did not suffer from.

In an extreme, one of my professors presented from notes and blew up his notes' display size like crazy, and I could never get a reasonably information-dense printout of those by printing multiple pages (those sizes were so large the fonts were too slim for the printer's resolution). Granted, it is an abuse of good typesetting, but I imagine my predicament would be helped with a font that had proper contrast.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by ska on Thursday July 22, 2021 @02:35PM (#27922567)
> To any professional type designer, it's a terribly balanced font aesthetically, basically every letterform.

It works pretty well balanced in print on systems it was originally targeted to. The main problem with using other fonts in TeX/LaTeX (or anything in, say, Word) is making it so complex equations lay out reasonably. Admittedly a niche problem, but one one that was the original purpose of TeX - and CM works well for it. There are a small number of other options that don't screw it up.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by jhanschoo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @07:51PM (#27925752)
It doesn't work well in print. It's less legible than more common typefaces in comparable sizes on account of its lightness, for certain printing technologies
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by ska on Friday July 23, 2021 @04:42PM (#27935392)
It works well in print if tuned to the printing technology, as originally designed. You should be able to adjust it (again, as designed) for the print technology you are using.

Most common typefaces are useless for mathematics, so it's a bit of an oranges and apples comparison anyway.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by jgon on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:39PM (#27921889)
Wasn't Computer Modern created with input from Herman Zapf, and Matthew Carter among other titans of typography? I don't think Knuth just whipped it up in isolation without any feedback, so this whole "it looks like a font designed by an engineer" seems both incorrect and needlessly arrogant?
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by dhosek on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:51PM (#27922063)
I don't think Carter had any input. There was some (minimal) input from Zapf, mostly with respect to the calligraphic capitals. Mostly, Knuth was trying to replicate the Monotype Modern. Some of the fonts like cmr17 are especially bad (the extrapolation of parameters to larger design sizes was not correct). That said, I do think that cmtt is a superior typeface for monospace typesetting.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by hosteur on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:57AM (#27919648)
I hear that a lot. What are examples of good fonts that are free alternatives? And available in latex?
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by jjgreen on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:14AM (#27919850)
Minion Pro is gorgeous (but commercial, but worth it).
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by benrbray on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:35AM (#27920100)
Do you have any examples of math / engineering texts written with Minion Pro? I can mostly find it used for title fonts, or with a ton of line spacing.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by jjgreen on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:54AM (#27920363)
A slide deck I did a few years ago:

http://soliton.vm.bytemark.co.uk/pub/jjg/pdf/vfplot-GUM11.pd...

Oh God, 10 years ago ...

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by leephillips on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:20PM (#27921662)
I took a look to see the font, which I agree is beautiful.

But I stayed for the content. Interesting! And what a great presentation! I have so many questions. What happened to this in the intervening decade? Is the idea incorporated into any other plotting packages? Did you purchase this font to use in your talks?

> Oh God, 10 years ago ...

I know that feeling.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by jjgreen on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:47PM (#27922012)
Too kind :-)

The package vfplot [1] is still available and still under development, it's rather hard to use in that there are lots of parameters to adjust to get decent looking output. There's also an issue in that the "dimension climbing" approach means putting an ellipse at each boundary corner and then as many as you can fit on the line-segment between them, there are lots of ways that this can fail for complex boundaries (coastlines, for example). I think I've fixed this using the fact that "a line segment is a degenerate ellipse", so one can actually calculate a "distance" between a line-segment and an ellipse in almost the same way as one calculates the distance between ellipses. The code for this is in a branch on GitLab [2], but there is still quite a bit of work to do for the 2.0 release (later this year?).

[1] http://soliton.vm.bytemark.co.uk/pub/jjg/en/code/vfplot/

[2] https://gitlab.com/jjg/vfplot

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by bluenose69 on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:06PM (#27923638)
This seems like a great method for showing direction fields. And it's in the Gerris context -- double win!
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by ska on Thursday July 22, 2021 @02:37PM (#27922587)
The equation layout in that doesn't look great, but they are pretty simple so hard to tell details.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by arnarbi on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:38PM (#27921883)
Here's an old thesis (of mine) in CS, with a bunch of inference rules, proofs, etc. (Ignore the standardized front matter of ~5 pages)

https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/7418/1/MSc_Arnar-Birgisson...

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by adiM on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:53AM (#27920352)
Motion Mountain book: https://www.motionmountain.eu/index.html (their certificate seems to have expired).

PDF copies also available on scribd: https://www.scribd.com/lists/2705622/Motion-Mountain-Collect...

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by PrettyPebble on Friday July 30, 2021 @11:56AM (#28009347)
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by benrbray on Thursday July 22, 2021 @12:04PM (#27920524)
Thanks for the example! I think the scribd pdf viewer has some layout issues, but I can now recall that I've seen this font in quite a few places before.

It doesn't look bad, but I still don't think it quite works for dense paragraphs of text compared to Latin Modern. I do really like how it looks on the slideshow in a sibling comment, though.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by adiM on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:58PM (#27922143)
Aesthetics of a fonts is such a personal feeling. And fonts feel different on screen vs print.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by lottin on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:54AM (#27920355)
Horses for courses. A single font will never be adequate for every purpose.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by GiovanniP on Thursday July 22, 2021 @03:37PM (#27923231)
Tex Gyre Termes could be. For an example, please look at https://www.texmacs.org/joris/zcomp/zcomp-abs.html (you can download both a pdf and the TeXmacs source---note that TeXmacs is not based on TeX, you need to use the TeXmacs program to edit it comfortably and to obtain a pdf).
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by carlinmack on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:32AM (#27920057)
Charter is decent
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by the-mitr on Friday July 23, 2021 @02:08AM (#27927729)
Linux Libertine family is good.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by magnio on Thursday July 22, 2021 @09:22AM (#27918505)
Language and glyph support aside, the unbearable thinness of Computer Modern makes it very difficult to read on screen. Maybe it looks better in print, but for computer monitor, Latin Modern is a better alternative IMO.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by tmoertel on Thursday July 22, 2021 @09:35AM (#27918650)
My understanding is that the "unbearable thinness" is what happens when Computer Modern outlines designed to accommodate ink swell (associated with older printing methods) are used on modern display and raster printing surfaces without adjustment. If you check the typography in TAoCP, which Knuth fine tuned, it doesn't seem so unnaturally thin.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by queuebert on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:12AM (#27919095)
Do you happen to know how he fine tuned it? I too would like a bit more weight on the font when printed.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by teddyh on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:14AM (#27919113)
You are supposed to fine tune the constants yourself for your specific printer when installing TeX and METAFONT on your system.

The pre-defined modes can be found here: ftp://ftp.tug.org/tex/modes.mf

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by TheRealPomax on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:52AM (#27919588)
The art of optimizing a typeface for print is pretty elaborate, and if you're genuinely interested in learning how to do this, https://typedrawers.com is a good place to start. It's where all the font engineers, as well as foundry owners, hang out.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by mcguire on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:08PM (#27923663)
Set your printer to 300 dpi.

No, seriously, when UTCS replaced the 300dpi laser printers with 600dpi models, Allan Emerson was very upset because his papers suddenly looked different. :-)

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by zauguin on Thursday July 22, 2021 @09:36AM (#27918660)
FYI on modern LaTeX engines like LuaLaTeX (and also XeLaTeX) Latin Modern actually is the default.

But Latin Modern and the default Type 1 version of Computer Modern have exactly the same thickness, so if Computer Modern looks thinner for you then it must be some weird screen effect. (The hinting is a bit different, but I wouldn't have expected that to have a significant effect on current systems where hinting is often ignored anyway.)

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by Blaisorblade0 on Thursday July 22, 2021 @03:51PM (#27923436)
AFAIK, Wikipedia's info on the Latin Modern regressions from Blue Sky is accurate. Neither version is the original CM font or has had as much fine-tuning put into it, but (EDIT) the Blue Sky version was at least worked on by paid professionals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Modern#Latin_Modern

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by Mikhail_Edoshin on Thursday July 22, 2021 @09:28AM (#27918580)
Yes, it looks thicker in print [1].

[1] https://www.flickr.com/photos/lonelyfox/4329034436

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by cpach on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:57AM (#27919650)
Is that Computer Modern? Wow. Looks very different from seeing it in a PDF.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by coliveira on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:38AM (#27919395)
You just need to update your reader. Any decent PDF or even DVI software has the ability to display CM in a readable way.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by crazygringo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:47AM (#27919531)
That is not true in any way.

First, the main way PDF readers make strokes thicker is via hinting, so it depends on how Computer Modern was embedded into the PDF for starters.

Second, hinting distorts letterforms so many top-quality renderers (like on macOS) don't use it, preferring more accurate letterforms instead. And Preview on macOS is certainly "decent".

Third, "updating" isn't going to do a thing. Whether fonts are rendered as hinted or not is a design decision taken when the PDF rendered was built from the ground up. No "update" is going to change that.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by mcguire on Thursday July 22, 2021 @03:41PM (#27923283)
It seems that modern type designers don't like Modern fonts. Font design, like all design, is a style-based endeavor, where things come into and go out of fashion. Modern fonts are out, currently.

Personally, Computer Modern is a little spindly for my taste (and eyesight). Computer Concrete, on the other hand....

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by dan-robertson on Thursday July 22, 2021 @07:29PM (#27925566)
Maybe you and the people you know are very used to computer modern? Complaints I hear often compare it to the fonts (and typesetting in general) of people’s preferred printers from before computer typography, so a particular typeface provided by monotype and set by a particular press.

I think a modern typeface (that is, one with contrast between thin and thick strokes among other things) is more acceptable on computers now that high-dpi displays are more common, but the resolution still isn’t perfect and that style isn’t so fashionable in most cases today.

Personally I dislike the shape of the lower case Roman t (the curl at the bottom is way too long and comes too high) and I dislike the italic u and v (as I can’t tell them apart). I think the serifs on the capital T come too low as well.

The wide array of mathematical symbols in latex don’t always go with the font and they can fail to go together well but that is a separate problem (many fonts won’t include them and the symbols weren’t all designed together.)

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by hocuspocus on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:44AM (#27920196)
> Personally I think it's a very hard standard to beat.

I wonder if Knuth himself would even agree. Open Concrete Mathematics next to a volume of TAOCP and see for yourself. It might not be a huge issue for a paper, but anything longer typeset in CM (like many PhD theses) could benefit from a better font. Even for math, there are pretty good alternatives nowadays.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by dhosek on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:56PM (#27922120)
The font in Concrete Mathematics, interestingly enough, is a reparameterized version of Computer Modern. I'd have to look at the MF sources, but if I recall correctly, it doesn't have any changes to the actual character programs. The "math italic" is the Euler typeface designed by Hermann Zapf. While this was implemented in Metafont, it is not really a "meta" font. Instead, the grad students who worked on this (under the direction of Chuck Bigelow and Kris Holmes, IIRC) instead created MF outlines for each size independently. There is no shared code for different sizes or even for common aspects of the characters in the font.
Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by BrandoElFollito on Friday July 23, 2021 @10:34AM (#27931127)
I used to use LaTeX in my physics days, including my phd thesis.

I recently compiled a document, 20 years later, and find the font horrible.

I was probably used to computer modern and did not realize how awful it was. There were not tons of good fonts easily useable either, that could be another reason.

Re:The LaTeX Font Catalogue by dhosek on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:48PM (#27922026)
I remember being at the pool at the hotel during the 1990 TUG conference and Michael Spivak going on a long tirade against the qualities of Computer Modern. There's a reason he commissioned the creation of the MathTime fonts.