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Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by ngngngng on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:13PM (#27909078)
Approximately 27% of the water used in Utah comes from the Colorado River and 60% of Utahans benefit from the river. 82% of Utah water goes to farmers. Significant amounts of that water usage is to grow Cotton and Alfalfa. Two water intensive crops that are largely exported out of the country.

In my opinion we have absolutely no business growing these crops in a desert, especially just to ship them out of the country. Unfortunately the Governor of Utah makes his money (you guessed it) growing Alfalfa in a desert, and he recently gave an impassioned speech about how those of us asking for certain types of agriculture to stop in our desert don't understand how important farming is.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by nohuck13 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:35PM (#27909376)
> 82% of Utah water goes to farmers.

Of the remaining 18%,

~ 8% goes to commercial/industrial use

~ 10% goes to municipal residential use (outdoor: 6%, indoor: 4%) [1]

[1] https://le.utah.gov/interim/2012/pdf/00002706.pdf

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by chana_masala on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:55PM (#27909655)
i.e. taking shorter showers ain't gonna cut it
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by knuthsat on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:14PM (#27909923)
There was also a segment on water usage in Cowspiracy for California I think.

Water usage in industry is massive. Individuals aren't to blame and shouldn't take any part of the burden. Similarily, CO2.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by Nzen on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:14PM (#27910732)
While the effect of residents is small, the usage of other sectors is, ultimately, in service of residents. People raise cattle in response to or anticipation of demand. Those cattle use more water than if we raised chickens or wheat for seitan. I consider it unlikely that a top down campaign to ration beef, in service of water usage, would succeed without a change in residential culture.

I am more apt to agree with Hank Green [0] that success in major social restructuring requires involvement at the individual level, too, because this encourages secondary behaviors that reinforce the restructuring. People who are voluntarily quitting hamburgers and steaks are more apt to write to their representatives or donate to NGOs that do in support of this issue, initially and to check in later on that promises are kept.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvAznN_MPWQ

As another example, Alec, who publishes youtube videos as _Technology Connections_, recently published a video about using his house as a thermal battery [1] so he can offset his energy use to night time, rather than running his AC at peak hours. He suggests that utilities involve residents to widen this strategy, in favor of brownouts or other centralized tools for shedding load in extreme circumstances. A policy solution that did not burden individuals with brownouts, ex by overprovisioning generation, would fall back on their shoulders in the form of higher utility rates. I allege the same would be the case for adverse climate change or overallocated water usage.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f9GpMWdvWI

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by nohuck13 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:20PM (#27912363)
You're taking it for granted that a market-based system isn't going to work. Why?

Utah farmers get their water almost for free, while city residents pay closer to its marginal delivery cost.

This isn't wise public policy choice made by 21st century philosopher-legislators, but simply the path-dependent product of an anachronistic 19th-century framework of "water rights" plus 100+ years of lobbying. It doesn't help that the state senate (like all state senates) is designed to over-represent rural areas.

Second-order solutions like rationing beef might be morally laudable, I just don't think they're really in play until you address the main structural failures, which almost everyone agrees on.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by pbronez on Thursday July 22, 2021 @06:36AM (#27917348)
Agree. Markets and prices are super useful tools, but they must be constructed thoughtfully and maintained rigorously. Property rights must be refactored to allow price discovery. Regulators must price in externalities by force of law. Corruption must be minimized.

Above all, you need an effective government at the core. Markets are fantastic for helping large groups of people make locally optimal decisions within global constraints, but you have to be able to establish those global constraints effectively. Water rights, climate impact, employment structures, supply chain resilience… none of that stuff is inherently baked into prices, and governments won’t fix those problems unless they’re solution-focused with low levels of corruption.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by gumby on Thursday July 22, 2021 @07:02AM (#27917488)
> It doesn't help that the state senate (like all state senates) is designed to over-represent rural areas.

I don’t think this has been true since Reynolds v. Sims almost 60 years ago. Since then state senates have been pretty pointless (just small equivalents of the lower houses) and really should be abolished.

In California, for example, it’s just a mechanism for assembly members who want to stick around beyond their term limits to have a chance at another couple of terms. As I understand the problems of term limits I probably shouldn’t complain.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by nohuck13 on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:58PM (#27964574)
Huh. You're absolutely right. Learned something today :)
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by vkou on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:28PM (#27911715)
> While the effect of residents is small, the usage of other sectors is, ultimately, in service of residents

As long as unsustainable water usage continues to be subsidized, I, as a customer, have little ability to prioritize less water intensive products.

If you want consumers to make informed choices, either add the externalities to the monetary price, or enforce rationing.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by Karrot_Kream on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:14PM (#27912292)
The sad part is the current state of water affairs is so far from this. Discounted commerical water rates (liable to change when your local representative gets a donation from industry), unclear water usage by individuals (how many folks really know how much water they use when?) of tiered pricing, shaming as a mechanism to reduce water usage, etc. It's asinine that we have such an unclear, complicated systems. No wonder even motivated individuals have such a hard time decreasing water usage.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by mynameisash on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @07:41PM (#27913553)
I'm going to be super pedantic here because your phrasing confused me and I wanted to be clear:

It's not that 8% of the remaining 18% is commercial/industrial; it's that 8% of the total (not part of the 82% agricultural) is commercial.

In other words:

* 44% of non-agricultural use (8% of the total, within the 18% non-ag) is commercial/industrial,

* 33% of non-agricultural use (6% of the total, within the 18% non-ag) is outdoor residential, and

* 22% of non-agricultural use (4% of the total, within the 18% non-ag) is indoor residential

^Data are on page 4/16 of the linked PDF

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by anonAndOn on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:36PM (#27909381)
The US exports massive amounts of water in the form of hay and alfalfa.[0] This practice may not survive once the reservoirs completely dry out.

[0]https://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/+symposium/proceedings/2019/Arti...

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by WarOnPrivacy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:59PM (#27909711)
Chinese and other overseas investors own those US desert farms. They were attracted here by the massively generous water rights they get automagically.

ref: https://grist.org/agriculture/u-s-southwest-already-parched-...

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by lostapathy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:17PM (#27909965)
While the US is unlikely to mess with the private property rights, export restrictions are easy to change.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by maybelsyrup on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:03PM (#27909778)
Damn I want a dessert farm
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by Integrape on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:32PM (#27910989)
I want to visit the Maybel Syrup Dessert Farm
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by tzs on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:21PM (#27911635)
Very little of the water used to grow hay and alfalfa actually ends up in the hay and alfalfa to be exported. Most of the water ends up in the atmosphere via evapotranspiration.

The amount exported is something like 0.005% of the evapotranspiration amount.

Here are some numbers [1] for Idaho crops. There might be some differences in Utah but they should be in the same ballpark.

> Not much water is exported with alfalfa hay. Potential irrigated alfalfa hay yield at elevations near 4000 feet is about 7.5 tons/acre. Hay harvested at 12% moisture removes 240 lbs water/ton hay, or 1,800 lbs/acre for a normal crop of alfalfa hay per year.

> Evapotranspiration (ET) is the primary use of water by alfalfa and averages about 36 inches/year (900 mm) at Kimberly. The ET at peak periods of 0.4 inches/day (10 mm/day) can reach 4080 tons of water per acre and 45 tons per acre per day.

[1] https://www.uidaho.edu/-/media/UIdaho-Responsive/Files/cals/...

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by beerandt on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @07:16PM (#27913374)
The opportunity cost is there, whether the actual water is exported or not. Especially if the local resource is somehow subsidized either directly or indirectly.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by fooey on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:23PM (#27909229)
In Southern Utah, which is part of the Mojave Desert, the farmers still doing plain old flood irrigation.

It's so staggeringly wasteful it's hard to understand

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by User23 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:26PM (#27909265)
Are there good figures on how much of that water is “wasted” and how much ends up replenishing groundwater reservoirs? Utah isn’t that close to the Pacific so that water has a lot of opportunities to do something other than flow into the ocean.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by ajross on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:31PM (#27909320)
Virtually all agricultural irrigation evaporates. It doesn't even run off into local streams (which you can verify by, heh, the lack of local streams in the Utah desert), much less seep into the ground.

Underground aquifers fill over decades and centuries, and in this environment, almost always laterally, not from seepage from rainfall. I think the demand for proof needs to go the other way, honestly. Presumptively this water is pretty clearly "wasted".

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by D13Fd on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:37PM (#27909411)
I think the question is how much less water would be used with a modern irrigation system rather than flood irrigation.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by tfigment on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:48PM (#27909548)
Ostensibly you could grow hydroponically and have very little waste but order of magnitude cost increase in power needs. Every other solution falls in between I guess.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by ashtonkem on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:02PM (#27909756)
Electricity is orders of magnitude easier to move than water, and its price is dropping too.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by User23 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:59PM (#27913235)
> Virtually all agricultural irrigation evaporates. It doesn't even run off into local streams (which you can verify by, heh, the lack of local streams in the Utah desert), much less seep into the ground.

The evaporation figures I can find range from 30% to 50%, which is hardly virtually all. I've never been to the Utah desert, but in the California desert I've dumped out water and watched it disappear into the ground. The absence of streams only indicates that seepage and evaporation together get all of the water that would otherwise flow in them.

> Underground aquifers fill over decades and centuries, and in this environment, almost always laterally, not from seepage from rainfall. I think the demand for proof needs to go the other way, honestly. Presumptively this water is pretty clearly "wasted".

Unconfined aquifers will fill as fast as rainfall can seep in, which depending on the area can be a lot less than decades.

How is letting the Colorado flow into the Pacific more of a "waste" than using that water to grow food and letting the excess seep into the water table and fall as rain on the other side of the Rockies?

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by ajross on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:21AM (#27919204)
Those figures are for water that doesn't enter the plants, though. All that water, except for a tiny fraction represented in the shipped output (nuts, whatever) still ends up locally in the air.

And "disappearing into the ground" is absolutely not water entering an aquifer! All you get is wet dirt. Which then... dries out. Again, this isn't how aquifers work.

There's no free lunch here. Growing plants in a desert under the open sky requires a staggering amount of water. It just does. If you want to push efficiency measures look at greenhouses.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by User23 on Thursday July 22, 2021 @07:50PM (#27925741)
> Again, this isn't how aquifers work.

Are you confusing confined aquifers and unconfined aquifers? That's exactly how unconfined aquifers work. Where I live the wells never go dry because every time it rains they are replenished.

Maybe the desert doesn't have unconfined aquifers and that's why you're so strident on this? I really don't know, but I'm curious so please elucidate if you can.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by fooey on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:30PM (#27909306)
I don't know any numbers, but we're over 100 all summer, so I imagine it mostly evaporates.

Flood irrigation here is just as bad as if they were doing it in Phoenix or Las Vegas

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by brewdad on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:34PM (#27911002)
Many of the old neighborhoods and a few remaining urban farms are flood irrigated in Phoenix. The small city park in my old neighborhood was also flooded once a week to keep the grass green all summer.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by woolcap on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:43PM (#27909480)
nit-pick, but only a tiny portion of Utah is in the Mojave desert.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Desert

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dylan604 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:00PM (#27909727)
While that may be accurate, it's still a lot of acerage that is specifically Mojave. At the same time, if I stand on the border of the Mojave in Utah, I'm still in a desert anywhere I go.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:03PM (#27910591)
Humans love taxonomy, nature does not.

If you stand on the border of the Mojave, you probably have one foot in the Great Basin desert that covers the west half of the state. The parent probably simply described or generalized to the wrong desert.

A climate map [1] shows that the only parts of the state which aren't desert are arid mountains; the Salt Lake area has a bit of lake effect snow but that's not in the Colorado River watershed.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Utah_K%C...

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by krferriter on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:33PM (#27909351)
We grow crops in the desert because there is so much sun there that the crops grow faster and to a higher consistent quality, and because there is much fewer pests that damage the plants.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by jszymborski on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:37PM (#27909405)
Right, but crop selection and farming practices matter.

Replace water-intensive crop with something more appropriate.

Replace flood irrigation with something like aquaponics which is leagues more water efficient.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by eldaisfish on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:43PM (#27909483)
If this is an argument, it is a very poor one and if this is a justification, it is entirely irrelevant.

Deserts have ecosystems that are adapted to life with limited water. Trying to transplant a crop that evolved with plentiful water into an ecosystem with very little is a bad idea. Even worse is the capitalistic incentive to divert natural watercourse to farm in an arid region.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by krferriter on Thursday July 22, 2021 @05:08PM (#27924374)
This has nothing to do with capitalism as communally (or otherwise non-capitalistically) owned food production entities would also be highly incentivized to grow crops in the desert because it just works better, assuming adequate water supply from pipelines or rivers. This is observably true as many countries are using desert/dry land areas to grow crops more efficiently, including those more on the "socialized" spectrum of mixed economies.

The thing we should do in this situation is increase our ocean desalination efforts (not to an extent that would counteract sea level rise, but it wouldn't hurt), alongside creating more water pipelines to achieve better distribution into areas which need it. We aren't going to stop crowing crops in desert conditions. It's too effective. We should build more water pipelines to bring water into regions like the California central valley and Colorado and Utah where water is more scarce but crop conditions are good aside from the water availability.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dylan604 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:58PM (#27909694)
Downvotes because people can't handle the truth?
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by allemagne on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:33PM (#27910997)
I appreciate the context here.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by JohnWhigham on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:28PM (#27909290)
Expecting all the modern amenities of life while living in the desert is just pure arrogance. I seriously don't know why governments subsidize it.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:39PM (#27909419)
According to the stats above, modern amenities of life aren't the main consumer of the water:

> 82% of Utah water goes to farmers.

In 2021, we don't need to grow Alfalfa in the desert. Especially not when it's being exported out of state anyway.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dv_dt on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:44PM (#27909498)
From your perspective and mine yes, but politically one needs a policy that also addresses all the people already involved making their living from that activity.

This is a micro sized problem of the larger scale fractal problem of climate crisis and industrial shifts needed to address it.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dylan604 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:56PM (#27909673)
What is the number of people directly involved in production of alfalfa in the desert that would no longer have work if the alfalfa production in the desert stopped. Do these jobs absolutely 100% depend on alfalfa, or would they "pivot" to other crops? Is the "farming" sector in Utah that artificial that there is no other crop?
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dv_dt on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:34PM (#27910184)
Change to “another crop” is like a farmer telling a software company built on Java to switch to a C++ stack because it’s just another language. There is crop specific knowledge that makes it not just planting something else.

It’s also not just the knowledge and technology capital involved, like many startups here, it’s connection to markets that matter to produce income. Ag wise it’s not clear what other, lower water-usage crop one would switch to, or how our system would encourage, or require, or incentivize that change.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dylan604 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:54PM (#27910457)
While that may be true, how many people is it? The water from the river that is wasted in Utah means it is not available for more viable uses downstream. What impact will that have? I'm guessing the number of people positively impacted from stopping this use of water will be greater than the number of farmers impacted. If the main reason that this is not being discussed is because the person in charge has literal skin in the game, then it makes it even worse (potentially criminal?).
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dv_dt on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:00PM (#27911344)
Correct, but we can have many logical, systemically positive reasons for changing it, but if we can’t address or overcome the concerns of those holding the power then it’s a largely a moot discussion.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by throwawayboise on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:17PM (#27910758)
The more macro question is can enough alfalfa be grown elsewhere, in areas that don't need so much artifical irrigation, or is the Utah production required to meet demand?
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by Mvhsz on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:40PM (#27911072)
Not a farmer, but alfalfa can be grown many places. I watched a gabe brown video where he mentioned growing it for cattle grazing in North Dakota, which is basically a cold desert. Presumably US farmers in wetter climates like the upper midwest and southeast are capable of growing more profitable crops than cattle feed.

Just one example: If we switched to electric cars and eliminated the need for the midwest to grow corn for ethanol, then a tremendous amount of farmland would open up. So you're right to ask the macro question, it's just that the answer is complicated.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dylan604 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:37PM (#27911815)
>then a tremendous amount of farmland would open up.

I'm not so sure. CorpFarmUSA will still want to continue growing the exact same crop, and would probably just find alternate buyers. They have so much clout with their lobby. Knee jerk reaction is to Save The Farmers!!!, yet if people actually stopped and looked at what how these farms are operating, the knee jerk reaction might change.

However, it is 2021 and I'm very cynical, so I do not believe people are willing to consider any view outside their own to be able to come to comprimise.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by lostapathy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:18PM (#27909987)
Also consider the markets that depend on the alfalfa that you'd disrupt.

I'm not arguing it's not worth disrupting, but it's not a simple problem.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by kylecordes on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:37PM (#27909410)
You are right... but if I understood the above, it's not the modern amenities using up the bulk of the water, it's the agriculture.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by treis on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:49PM (#27909560)
Because people don't really "use" water. When you flush the toilet or take a shower the water doesn't get destroyed. The vast majority of it gets treated and put back into the river.

The water used in agriculture will mostly evaporate or become part of the plant. Little of it will make it back to the source.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by ashtonkem on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:00PM (#27909722)
People absolutely use water by this metric, but most of it goes to their lawn.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by throwawayboise on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:18PM (#27910780)
Evaporated water eventually falls as rain, though probably somewhere else.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by nostromo on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:16PM (#27909954)
People absolutely should live in the desert.

It's better than what we usually do: destroy natural bio-diverse habitats along rivers and coasts and replace them with housing and strip malls.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by ansible on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:26PM (#27910080)
I live in an area of the country that has some of the very best environment in the entire world for growing crops. Length of seasons, rainfall, topsoil depth and quality, etc. The very best in the world, no hyperbole.

And yet, due to this land being near a major metroplex, we are busy paving it over with roads and buildings. Mostly what is grown now is Kentucky bluegrass, which doesn't do so great here (or anywhere besides Kentucky?) and so needs frequent applications of pesticides and water to stay green.

Market forces, I know. But from a larger perspective, how does this situation make the slightest bit of sense?

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by Kye on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:53PM (#27910446)
Deserts are natural bio-diverse habitats.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by Koshkin on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:32PM (#27909345)
Talk about sending people to Mars...
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by TroisM on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:04PM (#27909788)
> Approximately 27% of the water used in Utah comes from the Colorado River

63% goes to California for growing almonds and oranges? and 0% left for Mexicans?

https://www.kold.com/story/25067593/colorado-river-flows-int...

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by polartx on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:10PM (#27911464)
Incorrect. Per the Colorado River Authority agreement, Utah is allocated up to 24% of the rivers water. Utah is not even consuming it’s allocation. Due to the obviously increasing scarcity, Utah is pushing to increase its usage to meet its already agreed upon allowance. And that is because other states are greedily eyeing what is left in the banks and murmuring, “if Utah isn’t using their entire share, *we* should have it!”. And like Utah local leaders are supposed to, they are fighting for their local constituency interests, because that’s what we elect them to do.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by e40 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:45PM (#27911940)
We have removed conflict of interest completely from the conversations of today. Jesus, that's one huge conflict of interest, but no one in power and the voters just don't care. Depressing!!
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by mcot2 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:22PM (#27909211)
And Utah wants to build a pipeline to divert even more water.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by xedrac on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:55PM (#27909651)
A very small (single digit) percentage of Utah grown alfalfa is exported out the country.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by xyzzy21 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:25PM (#27910073)
California is still worse. NO ALMONDS. They are water pigs and if you eat almonds you are aiding and abetting environmental damage at a grotesque scale.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by 1270018080 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:31PM (#27909330)
The Salt Lake in Salt Lake City won't even exist in a few years. I think it's lost 50% of it's volume in the last 20 years.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by CountDrewku on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:57PM (#27909684)
>In my opinion we have absolutely no business growing these crops in a desert,

You might as well just say people shouldn't be living in most of the western US then since a majority of it receives very little rainfall.

It's very easy to call these people out when you're not directly affected. Yes just strip them of their major sources of income. No issue there....

You need a better plan than just telling the Governor to shut up and be ok with losing money.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by JshWright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:59PM (#27909713)
Why should we subsidize the cost of them making money?
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by nradov on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:37PM (#27910219)
Most of those crops aren't directly subsidized. The problem is water rights which are legally tied to real estate. So there's no way to force farmers to pay market rates for water.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by JshWright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:55PM (#27910479)
The externalized costs are absolutely being subsidized.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by rtkwe on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:45PM (#27910329)
You can live out there with little water impact if you don't insist on importing the kind of green water intensive landscaping that the rest of the country wants. People living there is relatively ok from a water point of view (though from a power usage perspective we really should be building very different homes in that area too) it's doing farming in some of the drier parts of the US that seems wasteful when we know water is an issue there.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by WkndTriathlete on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:25PM (#27911672)
Nitpick: in the wet areas of the country it's not that we want green landscaping, it's that it is almost impossible to not have green landscaping because of how much rain we get.

Lay down a layer of rock landscaping over landscaping fabric around a home in suburban Minnesota without maintaining it (e.g. by aggressively applying weed preventer and weeding it) and in 3-5 years it will be covered with native prairie grasses and weeds growing between and around the rock.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by rtkwe on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @07:22PM (#27913413)
What I mean is the grass monoculture, trees, shrubs and flowers that for the ur-lawn in the US most of the us that requires a lot of extra watering to maintain.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by CountDrewku on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @07:49PM (#27913618)
>grass monoculture, trees, shrubs and flowers that for the ur-lawn in the US most of the us that requires a lot of extra watering to maintain

It does not. I lived in the midwest for the majority of my life and never once had to water my lawn to keep everything green and alive.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by CountDrewku on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @07:47PM (#27913602)
> You can live out there with little water impact. it's doing farming in some of the drier parts of the US that seems wasteful when we know water is an issue there.

Ok then they'll use it up and the problem will solve itself.

I don't agree that you can live there and have the infrastructure to support jobs, food etc. with "very little impact"

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by rtkwe on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:50PM (#27914738)
Most of the water usage in the US west is farming not from residential use and a lot of residential use isn't destructive since it's treated and released.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by CountDrewku on Thursday July 22, 2021 @07:14PM (#27925471)
Farming feeds people and gives them jobs. It's not a separate entity that has nothing to do with the people living there.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by rtkwe on Thursday July 22, 2021 @10:21PM (#27926527)
For the whole US only 1.3% of people are employed directly on farms and for Utah the number is 1,442 or 0.04% of the population. [0] There are other places farms can be other than a desert. Some jobs have too big of an impact to just support endlessly simply because it's someone's job. These water intensive processes have massive impacts on the environment, look at the valley in California that's sunk 11 feet because of the immense amount of water that's been pulled out of the land.

[0] https://jobs.utah.gov/jsp/utalmis/#/occupation/452093/report

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by CountDrewku on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:35AM (#27959874)
>here are other places farms can be other than a desert.

Where?

You act like these farms are just there because they like wasting water. Someone is buying the product or they wouldn't exist.

If you want a modern lifestyle deal with it. Deserts are going to have to be used for growing stuff.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by eloff on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:02PM (#27909757)
They should grow drought resistant crops that use less water, because what they're doing now isn't sustainable and will end soon. Maybe wheat, maybe some livestock grazing, maybe nothing at all in some parts.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by dylan604 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:03PM (#27909769)
So that's your opinion, and it's a perfectly valid opinion. We also need a better plan on how to use the water sooner rather than later, so we need to tell the Governor to get off his damn ass and do something productive rather than wasting water for his own damn benefit. If you can't see how that's just not conflict of interest, then we really can't have a proper conversation.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by simiones on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:19PM (#27910791)
The farming will stop, one way or another. That much is certain, since the river is drying up. Whether it will stop in time to prevent other issues is the question.
Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by slantedview on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:29PM (#27909299)
The same is true in California, where almonds, which consume massive amounts of water, are grown, along with alfalfa which is largely exported. Also, stunningly, rice is even grown, which requires flooding fields with water.

All of which is to say, our water problems are as much a political problem - due to overuse in farming - as anything.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by mullen on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:40PM (#27909448)
> Also, stunningly, rice is even grown, which requires flooding fields with water.

Flooding fields is not required for rice farming. Its done to control weeds, not because the rice crop demands it.

Re:The Colorado River is shrinking by jimbob45 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:24PM (#27909241)
There’s an argument to be made that states/nations should have some amount of self-sufficiency, or you risk running into the current issue where all of our Chinese import microchips are potentially compromised. I can see how Utah wouldn’t want to be entirely beholden to other states for its agriculture.

That said, arguments like yours present a powerful reason not to waste resources on what is largely illusory security.