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Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by afavour on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:00PM (#27907986)
But her lawsuit is against the Neiman Lab, not her employer, so it wouldn’t have any bearing on what you’re saying? If anything it feels kind of telling that she’s suing the organisation that named her instead of the organisation that fired her.

IMO at the very least the case is a lot more nuanced than you're making it out to be. For example: the fired professor was propagating conspiracy theories about Seth Rich. From the free speech angle, sure, she's free to say whatever she wants. But if you're a journalism professor and you aren't able to tell when something being propagated in the media is a baseless conspiracy theory, what does that say about your ability at your job? And as a teacher? It is not flat out wrong to fire someone for engaging in actions that cast doubt on their professionalism. At the very least it's open for debate.

I think there's an interesting debate to be had over her having done this anonymously: if she separated it from her professional persona is she less culpable in a professional sense? Personally I'd still argue no, but I think this is why she's targeting the Lab and not her employer: it's a lot easier to argue that unmasking her (thus combining her anonymous and professional identities) was wrong than to argue that firing her was wrong.

It seems their argument is going to be centered around one particular post expressing an anti-Muslim sentiment. Benton said she wrote it, she said she did not, thus he defamed her. All the posts were made under the same Disqus account so she might have a hill to climb in proving that it wasn't her. I'm very far from a lawyer but this feels like a case designed to set the professor up as a cause célèbre on the right rather than one designed to win.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by nostromo on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:48PM (#27909554)
She's suing Nieman Lab because she claimed they lied about what she actually said.

Yes, I'm sure she would love to sue the university too. However she likely doesn't have a case there.

I hope she wins the lawsuit because they sloppily doxxed her and broke the terms of service of Disqus in doing so.

> Viola acknowledged writing most of the posts. But she denied being behind the anti-Muslim screed. That was critical to Sorokin’s decision to allow the libel and defamation part of Viola’s suit to proceed. The former professor “has plausibly alleged that Benton may have been negligent in his failure to verify that she was the author,” the judge wrote. He also took note of how Benton managed to discover and reveal her identity. Viola wrote her comments “based on the promise that her user information would be used for ‘moderation purposes only,’ which was violated when Benton posted her information on Twitter,” Sorokin wrote.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by microtherion on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @08:42PM (#27914014)
"sloppily doxxing" is not the standard for defamation in the US. In many cases, the standard amounts to "actual malice", which means pretty much that she'd have the prove the defendants KNEW she did not write said screed.

Have you considered that if the standard for defamation were actually as you hope it is/should be, she'd get about a microsecond to enjoy her victory over Nieman Lab before being crushed by Seth Rich's family over her rumormongering in that case?

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by nostromo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:18PM (#27921638)
That's not the standard, which is why the judge allowed it to move forward. It's literally mentioned in the article.

Being sloppy is indeed enough to be sued. If I started telling people "microtherion is a Nazi" - you could sue me without proving I knew you are not a Nazi.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by microtherion on Thursday July 22, 2021 @03:43PM (#27923318)
> the judge allowed it to move forward

… on a Motion to Dismiss, which means literally "if we take everything the plaintiff says as the gospel truth, and dismiss anything the defendant says, would the plaintiff have a case?"

> It's literally mentioned in the article.

The judge allowed some of the numerous claims to proceed to the next trial stage, while dismissing others outright.

If you follow the article's link to the ruling, you will find that actual malice is literally the standard applied to many of the counts, which were indeed dismissed at the Motion to Dismiss stage: "mere negligence or deviation from professional standards is insufficient to allege actual malice".

Whether that standard applies to the libel charge depends on whether the plaintiff is a public figure, which apparently in that state is never decided in the Motion to Dismiss stage. However, the next step is generally a Motion for Summary Judgment, and odds are good that she will be found a (Limited, at least) public figure, at which point the Libel, Defamation, Emotional Distress, and Tortious Interference counts are history.

> you could sue me

Anyone could sue anyone for anything. Would I win? I doubt it.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by afavour on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:52PM (#27909612)
Yes, but I was responding to this quote by the OP:

> I hope her lawsuit is very successful. She was clearly targeted, ostracized, and fired for speaking her mind.

Those two statements have no connection to each other, since the lawsuit has nothing to do with her being targeted, ostracized and fired, instead (as you say) it's about her being defamed.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:43PM (#27910308)
yeah but the organization she is suing was the cause of revealing her identity, leading to her being targeted, ostracized and fired.

actually maybe the targeted is in reference to Nieman.

I guess I see not a legal connection, but the kind of connection that people often make in informal speech.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by mmcwilliams on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:01PM (#27910567)
Is violating a website or platforms' ToS grounds for a third parties to sue you?
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by shkkmo on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:52PM (#27912674)
I believe the potential grounds are libel, not any TOS violation.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:49PM (#27910388)
Doxxing isn't illegal.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:25PM (#27910883)
… and this is not a criminal case, but a civil one.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:45PM (#27911138)
Doxxing is not a civil violation either. There is nothing wrong with doxxing people.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by kbelder on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:39PM (#27911849)
Civil and Criminal violations are not the only things that are wrong.

For good reason, many wrong things are completely legal, and still should be condemned.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:53PM (#27912028)
Of course, but that's not the case here. Doxxing this woman made Temple a better place to learn, and hopefully it made some people think twice before posting racist comments. I think this was the perfect outcome.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by spoonjim on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:41PM (#27912574)
Did it make Temple a better place to learn? How can you know that? Was anyone having problems with her before? Is academia's march towards a highly policed speech environment a good thing for students? Even marginalized students?
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by afavour on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:07PM (#27912815)
> Did it make Temple a better place to learn? How can you know that?

If you are a journalism professor and are unable to recognise disinformation when you see it (e.g. Seth Rich conspiracy theories) then it calls your job competency into serious question. Yes, the firing would make Temple a better place to learn.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by spoonjim on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @08:12PM (#27913792)
I saw one of the most accomplished physicists in the world unable to solve a (hard) first year Physics problem in Office Hours. He did it three times and got three different wrong answers, threw the chalk down and walked away and asked us to come back tomorrow. Does that mean he’s not qualified for his job?
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by MauroIksem on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @08:29PM (#27913922)
Eh yes?
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by spoonjim on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @11:19PM (#27914949)
He was one of the three best teachers of any subject that I've ever had.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by tobr on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:49PM (#27912652)
By what metric is academia marching towards a highly policed speech environment, though? I think that’s a line of attack against academia that has been parroted for decades, by referencing anecdotes such as this news story, while ignoring less newsworthy forces pushing in the opposite direction.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by spoonjim on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:15PM (#27912873)
What are the forces pushing in the opposite direction? If you look at what happened to Erika Christakis or Bret Weinstein (try to ignore everything that Weinstein has become since then) it's hard to say that academia is not more highly policed than previously. Of course in some ways this is good, in that I recall some professors mercilessly ridiculing some students in front of the whole class, and of course professors having sex with some students which was always terrible but had no consequences until a few years ago.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by joshuamorton on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:56PM (#27913204)
This depends on exactly what you mean, but you can equally look at Nicole Hannah Jones for either the "reverse", or for an example of speech policing, but by the "other side".

> try to ignore everything that Weinstein has become since then

I feel like this is difficult to do. I'd sort of argue that "we caught a bad faith actor early" is a good thing. Maybe you could argue that Bret wouldn't be what he is today if he weren't fired, but I don't really find that convincing.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by op00to on Thursday July 22, 2021 @06:44AM (#27917388)
Please explain “marginalized students”.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by nostromo on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:49PM (#27911193)
They violated Disqus's terms of service, which is a civil violation.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by shadowgovt on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:42PM (#27911893)
I'm pretty sure violating the TOS isn't a civil violation.

It's a violation of the TOS. The recourse is Disqus cuts the offender's access (either the individual or the institution) for violating the TOS.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by snowwrestler on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:03PM (#27911377)
Sure but it’s not Disqus that is filing the suit. I’d be surprised if she has standing to claim damages based on an agreement she was not a party to.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by ALittleLight on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:57AM (#27915861)
The article explains she is suing for defamation. Google explains defamation has four elements:

1) a false statement purporting to be fact (he says she wrote what she says she didn't)

2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person (yes, the doxing)

3) fault amounting to at least negligence (maybe debatable, but he accused her of writing something knowing only that an account registered to her posted it. He never asked her about it and has already admitted fault in accusing her without asking.)

4) damages (yes, her career)

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:53PM (#27911242)
Sure, you can complain about that. But you said she was sloppily doxxed, which doesn't really seem to be the case. She was properly doxxed.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by dumbfounder on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:11PM (#27914516)
Not according to the lawsuit, she claims she didn’t make some of the comments. If that is true, then it was sloppy.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by Justsignedup on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:52PM (#27910429)
A. K. A. Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by alabamacadabra on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:58PM (#27910525)
Can you define what free speech would be then? How exactly is that not just an idiotic paradox?
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by klyrs on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:35PM (#27911014)
Exercising free speech can have social consequences. You're free to advocate for the legalization of necrophilia; others are free to criticize you and disagree with you (exercising their own free speech) or shun you (exercising their freedom of association).

Legal consequences imply non-free speech; employment consequences are more complicated.

edit: Responding to dead response; not gonna vouch for you again with that attitude...

Every freedom has consequences. You've got the right to bear arms, but you can shoot yourself in the foot. You've got the freedom to move about the country, but you can miss your sister's wedding if you're in another state. You've got the freedom to vote, but your elected politician won't always vote in the way you'd like. You've got the right to drink and smoke, but you might get cancer or other diseases. You've got the right to piss off your friends by spouting off hot takes, and you might lose those friends if they don't like what you have to say.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by hogFeast on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:22PM (#27911636)
But we aren't talking about necrophilia. It is about people who may work in an environment that is 95% Democrat being attacked as racists or whatever because they have a different political view.

The issue isn't exactly about free speech but discrimination. And this happens in a million other ways too: being overweight, having a certain accent, being shorter than average. The fact that people have to resort to a "free speech" defence is indicative of the problem. And, of course, there will be "consequences"...no-one doubts that are consequences for not being like other people.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by klyrs on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:46PM (#27912616)
One of the alleged opinions, "deport all Muslims," advocates for discrimination. As I said, employment consequences are complicated, and that's especially true when the employer is a public school. But, that isn't just a "different political view," it's evidence that you're predisposed towards... discrimination. If you make such statements in public, and you interview and don't hire a qualified Muslim who applies for a job at your place of employment, you've provided that applicant ammunition for a discrimination lawsuit. For that reason, it behooves a company to fire employees who make such statements in public.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by hogFeast on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:36PM (#27914642)
I don't believe that is what she said. You are making the point that I say should be avoided: you believe she said one thing, so that must make her an X, and Xs are dangerous...you have no idea.

And if someone is discriminating against another person in hiring (btw, inevitable...height/weight/accent, it is basically impossible to remove this, people are fairly safe on religion because no-one can tell what religion another person is without asking) then that is enough. There is no need to examine the person's statements and try to work out how they would behave in a hypothetical example (doing this is discriminating...you aren't judging a person on their actions but how you believe they would act in a hypothetical you invent...would you like to be judged this way?).

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by klyrs on Thursday July 22, 2021 @02:55PM (#27922778)
> I don't believe that is what she said. You are making the point that I say should be avoided: you believe she said one thing, so that must make her an X, and Xs are dangerous...you have no idea.

No, please read my comment more carefully, because I said none of that.

I don't believe that she did or didn't say anything. I said "alleged" and meant it -- I've read exactly one article about this person and never heard of her before.

I said that having a post like that under one's name could be used as evidence against their employer in the case of a Title VII claim. Not that it would definitely indicate that the poster is racist; not that the poster is "dangerous" -- I'm said that the poster could reasonably be viewed as a legal liability to their employer.

> you aren't judging a person on their actions but how you believe they would act in a hypothetical you invent...would you like to be judged this way?

Another example of non-free speech: if you admit to having done a crime, that will be used against you in court (note, the admission itself is not a crime -- but it is evidence). If you express intent to do a crime, and somebody alleges that the same crime happened, and you're placed at the scene of the alleged crime, then your expression of intent will be used against you in court. Whether or not I want that to happen to me is irrelevant. That's how the legal system works.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by minsc__and__boo on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:12PM (#27912256)
Political party is a personal choice and thus not a protected class.

Freedom of association permits us to choose who we do and do not associate with based on that individual's own choices.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by gnicholas on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:08PM (#27912817)
In many jurisdictions, political affiliation/activity is protected. [1] It looks like PA has had a couple cases on the matter, one offering protection and a more recent one limiting the first case to its facts (i.e., saying it is not precedential anymore). Details on page 319.

1: https://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/empspeech.pdf

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by minsc__and__boo on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:02PM (#27965431)
PA courts determined that the previous 1983 ruling (protecting political party from employer termination) is not good law, and will not use it as precedence again.

There are laws in place to prevent employers from coercing employees into political action - i.e. you won't get your annual bonus unless you donate to this political candidate - but these are protections from extortion, and not exceptions to the general rule that political party is not a protected class.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by chris11 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @09:37PM (#27914364)
Somewhat ironically California considers political affiliations a protected class.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by minsc__and__boo on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:06PM (#27965482)
California protects employees from the threat of employers trying to force them into taking political action - i.e. you need to donate to a political candidate or attend a political event or be fired. It doesn't interfere with freedom of association for political actions taken by the employee independent of threat, such as being fired after making islamophobic comments.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by hogFeast on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:31PM (#27914620)
I am not talking about protected classes (a concept which only exists in the US, and therefore isn't useful generally). The point is about discrimination, which will occur irregardless of what laws you pass.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by minsc__and__boo on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:11PM (#27965533)
Discrimination is a broad term that can apply to the type of bread you eat in a sandwich.

When it comes to discrimination of employees by employers, then the protected classes, personal choice, and freedom of association are highly relevant irrespective of country.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by rhizome on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:30PM (#27912463)
You don't have to talk about politics at work. Heck, you may have even heard never to bring up politics or religion. Because of consequences.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by hogFeast on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:29PM (#27914604)
Yes, that is my point. This is just another way for people to discriminate against people who aren't "on their team". It is why civil organizations, like the Freemasons, don't allow people to talk about politics or religion. Just personally, I am not sure why other people are interested either.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by webkike on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:08PM (#27911437)
Freedom of speech means that you can express any opinion civilly in a public forum without being persecuted for such speech. It does not mean you won’t get fired for saying something racist, and importantly it means that there are restrictions on speech that are not opinions or expressed civilly, such as the famous “yelling fire in a crowded theater” example.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by kyrra on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:09PM (#27912824)
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is protected under the first amendment. That phrase came out of a 1919 SCOTUS ruling[0]. The limitations on speech were slowly restored over the next 50 years, with Brandenburg v Ohio[1] (1969) ultimately blocking making speech illegal.

The important distinction is that you can be punished under the law for the intent + consequences of speech. For the fire example, if no one reacted at all to me yelling "Fire!", the state could not go after me. Now, if I caused a stampede or other behavior from those in the theater, I could be sued for various things (manslaughter if someone died, criminal mischief, or disturbing the peace).

It's also the same reason the government can go after mob bosses for hiring a hitman to kill someone. They just said something (like, "take that guy out"), which is just speech. But if the actions that resulted in the speech can be directly connected, you can get in trouble for it.

EDIT: To make clear here, intent and consequences matter here. It's why you rarely see cases against speech brought, as intent must also be clear and provable in court.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by jbluepolarbear on Thursday July 22, 2021 @02:04AM (#27915906)
Then go to a theater and yell “Fire” and see how it goes. You’ll be arrested.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by delgaudm on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:47PM (#27911962)
Prosecuted, no. Persecuted? You certainly might be.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by minsc__and__boo on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:06PM (#27912180)
Which would be others exercising their freedom of speech as well, or in the case of her employer, freedom of association.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by J5892 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:53PM (#27911248)
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by chris11 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:49PM (#27911177)
Speech is meaningless if it has zero consequences. Freedom of speech isn't absolute. I don't necessarily think freedom of speech should necessarily be the most important consideration if other important values are involved.
Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by dkural on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:56PM (#27911276)
It's about Government's ability to restrict or punish free speech, for example, by making you disappear (e.g. China per Hong Kong and Uighur brainwashing, Saudi Arabia bone-sawing journalists).

There can be, and are, private consequences to speech. I may not invite you back for dinner for example, other consequences may be more impactful.

Re:A Twitter thread sparked a lawsuit against Nieman Lab’s f... by EricE on Thursday July 22, 2021 @09:22AM (#27918503)
>"For example: the fired professor was propagating conspiracy theories about Seth Rich."

That the COVID virus leaked from a lab was branded as a conspiracy theory - until now all of the sudden it isn't.

Censorship is a "cure" far worse than the problems it purports to fix. Even worse is using such flimsy pretexts to FIRE someone.

That people are so casual in accepting ruining peoples live's for simply having the wrong GROUPTHINK is utterly mind boggling to myself. Sadly the "smarter" one seems to think they are the more susceptible they seem to be in rationalizing away any concerns that should be firing off in their little heads.

Those ignorant of history doomed to repeat it and all that :(