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Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by poorjohnmacafee on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:47AM (#27853614)
Fyi they used deepfake AI to have him say various things. Apparently it's not clear in the doc where it's a fake and where it's the doc makers guessing what he might say.

If ask me pretty disturbing the producers claim to know him and his mind so well that they're comfortable speaking for him.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by zimpenfish on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:56AM (#27853654)
Whilst I think the deepfaking of his voice is ethically sketchy, they did at least a) get permission from the family and b) (apparently) only use it on words he had actually written (like emails, etc.)

(I say 'apparently' because whilst one use for it was confirmed as reading an email, the producer seems to be refusing to clarify where the other deepfaked audio is.)

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by lmohseni on Friday July 16, 2021 @08:25AM (#27855526)
His widow, whom the producers claimed to have asked for permission, tweeted that she didn’t: https://twitter.com/ottaviabourdain/status/14158894550057164...
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by zimpenfish on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:14AM (#27856413)
YIKES.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by mongol on Friday July 16, 2021 @06:11AM (#27854682)
I think it is strange that family giving permission makes it ok. Would it be ok if they gave permission if he was alive? If not, what makes it ok now?
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by GavinMcG on Friday July 16, 2021 @06:32AM (#27854787)
There are a lot of affairs that get passed along to family (or others) after someone death. It would be completely inappropriate for family to close someone's bank account while they still lived; we have no qualms about their doing so after they've died.

Publishing yet-unpublished works is another example that this is only a step out two away from.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by azornathogron on Friday July 16, 2021 @12:25PM (#27857938)
To add to this, when yet-unpublished works are published posthumously, they are commonly edited. For example, several of JRR Tolkien's works were edited for posthumous publication by his son Christopher. And even if the text is totally unchanged there must be choices about what to include and how to present it.

IMHO it's not at all strange for the family (particularly the offspring) of the deceased to make decisions, including creative/artistic/editorial decisions, about how their loved one's work and life are used and portrayed.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by jfengel on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:31PM (#27859546)
In Tolkien's case, that's not just obscure stuff. The Silmarillion is widely considered "canonical", but it was published after his death, with countless editorial choices by his son. In most cases, later writings explicitly contradict the ones Christopher chose.

He chose them because they were the ones most compatible with the other published works, because his father could never revise them. (Unlike The Hobbit, which as revised to make it more compatible with upcoming The Lord of the Rings.)

He was specifically chosen for the job by his father, who may not have agreed with the choices but was unequivocal that Christopher was the one to make them. Christopher himself has said that he'd change some decisions if he were to make them again, but that's true for any author.

To me, I'd just as soon The Silmarillion bear Chrisopher's name. Not as a matter of honor, but as a matter of clarity to fans who want to know what's "really" Tolkien.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by andrewzah on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:07AM (#27856340)
Publishing yet-unpublished works is completely different than generating new work based on the old works.

I suppose our wills now will need to include statements about not allowing family/etc to do things like this, at least under our names.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by zimpenfish on Friday July 16, 2021 @06:29AM (#27854766)
For me, personally, it doesn't make it "ok" but it's certainly a step less ethically sketchy than if it was just done without their permission.

I can easily imagine that some people would have "ok/not ok" on either side of the "family permission" line though.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by BelenusMordred on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:57AM (#27857642)
Is this not general control of an estate? Seems entirely within what we in the West consider normal. Whether it's "creepy" or not doesn't really factor into all the other decisions made on the behalf of a deceased person.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by GrumpyNl on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:20AM (#27857166)
The family didnt give permission.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by throw7 on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:22AM (#27857198)
permission to have your family decide to "deepfake" you should be opt-in. also, the whole point of "deepfake" is to falsely present an object as true. In a documentary, this is troubling. personally, every instance of deepfake should come with a on screen caption of "deepfake notice of creation of event".
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by Mountain_Skies on Friday July 16, 2021 @01:35PM (#27858829)
The difficulty is going to be who represents the deceased if the estate agrees to allow the deep fake against the deceased's permission. It's both of a question of who has standing to sue the estate and who is going to fund the legal costs involved.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by dylan604 on Friday July 16, 2021 @03:38PM (#27860355)
Or just the typical "dramatic re-enactment" would still suffice?
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by danuker on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:00AM (#27855759)
I don't think it's unethical; why not use effects to make media more engaging.

What I do take issue with is doing this in a documentary.

People might be led into thinking that he actually read those letters aloud.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by karaterobot on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:25AM (#27856528)
I'm not convinced by the argument that it's okay to deepfake someone's voice because you're "just" reading their own words. A vocal performance is not the same as text: give me the clearest, most innocuous paragraph you can write, and I can easily change the entire meaning of it by delivering the same words with different emphasis, speed, tone, and so on.

This can happen on purpose or by accident. It happens in documentaries all the time, with actors reading primary sources. But, the difference is that using a facsimile of Bourdain's voice makes it seem like a legitimate historical record, and not the creation of the director, which is what it is.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by jfengel on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:26PM (#27859493)
That's certainly a lot of what I do as an actor. The words mean what I want them to mean. Or rather, what my director tells me they want them to mean. Whatever tells the story they want to tell.

It helps that I tend to work with classic texts, written with a minimum of commentary from the writer. Writers today tend to add a lot of extra stuff to their scripts telling me that they want the words to mean, and controlling every motion as if I were a puppet. Personally, I find that less interesting.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by d13 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @06:15AM (#27871855)
It’s called a “dirty reading”
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by serf on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:55AM (#27853646)
>If ask me pretty disturbing the producers claim to know him and his mind so well that they're comfortable speaking for him.

It was supposedly an email he wrote[0], but I can still sympathize with your point : my voice/dialect/vocabulary in person are different than the ones I use 'online', i'd hate for someone to make the assumption that I would ever speak 1:1 with the way I type to people.

[0]: https://www.businessinsider.com/anthony-bourdain-documentary...

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by cpach on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:57AM (#27854297)
Hm. Interesting.

Maybe I’m old-school but as a viewer I think I would prefer a narrator instead of a deepfake.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by WillPostForFood on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:58AM (#27853665)
https://nypost.com/2021/07/15/director-of-anthony-bourdain-a...

It is weird, but they are using the AI generated voice to read actual emails, so they aren’t guessing what he might say.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by ycombobreaker on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:23AM (#27855963)
It's weird, and it crosses the line into misrepresentation. The written word and the spoken word are different forms of communication. A deepfake is using his words but synthesizing his facial expressions, pacing, and tone.

Everything we know about how information is lost from face2face to text--why /s is a thing in the first place--should reinforce this. A deepfake is still a small fiction.

(edit for spelling)

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by mthoms on Friday July 16, 2021 @03:02PM (#27859923)
It's my understanding that the deepfake is voice only - but I might be mistaken.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by ycombobreaker on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:14PM (#27860728)
Yeah maybe voice only, but my point stands. They are inventing inflection, tone, pacing, etc.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by mthoms on Friday July 16, 2021 @05:59PM (#27861723)
agreed.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by AdamJacobMuller on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:46AM (#27857514)
> the producers claim to know him and his mind so well that they're comfortable speaking for him

They aren't making up words though, they're "merely" having an AI read words we know he wrote. Is that ethical? I'm not sure. Neither is the filmmaker:

> Neville said. “We can have a documentary-ethics panel about it later.”

I'm comfortable saying it's not disingenuous though.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by mthoms on Friday July 16, 2021 @03:00PM (#27859902)
Refusing to reveal all the parts that were AI generated is very unethical IMHO. It's an extraordinarily bad precedent too: Imagine a world where this is the norm.

The only benefit to concealing this important detail is generating controversy and getting his film talked about. This is a very selfish move by the filmmaker.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by AdamJacobMuller on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:15PM (#27912307)
> Refusing to reveal all the parts that were AI generated

I don't disagree but I think he's genuinely saying at some point he wants to have that documentary ethics panel.

I think it's far more interesting to wait a bit (after it's out on streaming/blu-ray/etc) and see if anyone can figure it out. I think he's actually INVITING that kind of discussion and analysis by giving everyone exactly the information they would need to do so.

A) here's a voiceover which was done by AI B) obviously here's a lot of legitimate samples C) here's how I did it D) there are two other fakes, go find them.

I think it's a really good discussion to have.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by flycaliguy on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:17AM (#27855906)
I think critics of this technique are forgetting how incredibly manipulative film is.

It’s a cool new spice on a crowded spice rack.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by aaron695 on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:47AM (#27856188)
"Throughout the film, Neville and his team used stitched-together clips of Bourdain's narration pulled from TV, radio, podcasts, and audiobooks."

I'd read that as using normal audio out of context.

All documentaries lie. A lot, not just a little. Bourdain's shows were never an exact truth either.

It's a new interesting way to lie though, I guess it comes down to what were are ok being lied to about.

"We worked with four companies before settling on the best. We also had to figure out the best tone of Tony’s voice: His speaking voice versus his “narrator” voice, which itself changed dramatically of over the years. The narrator voice got very performative and sing-songy in the No Reservation years."

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by mst on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:38AM (#27856675)
Having been a subject of documentary/news type stuff a couple times, yeah, the way it gets put together is just like that.

Watching the "noddy shots" being filmed was pretty hilarious though.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by suzzer99 on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:52AM (#27857584)
The difference between his reading of Kitchen Confidential and Medium Raw is like night and day.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by spookthesunset on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:59AM (#27857673)
Medium Raw was completely different. It was like he grew up, had 2.5 kids and a mortgage or something.

Totally different vibe.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by suzzer99 on Friday July 16, 2021 @12:15PM (#27857846)
Yeah different vibe but also his narrator voice wasn't developed at all yet with Kitchen Confidential. I found it fascinating comparing the two readings. Also Chapter 3 of Medium Raw - where he eviscerates the idle rich - is maybe the funniest thing I've ever read in my life.

http://subwayreads.org/book/medium-raw/

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by nwsm on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:25AM (#27857221)
This is enough for me not to watch it.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by johnnyfived on Friday July 16, 2021 @03:13PM (#27860061)
It's horrible, we can't normalize this
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by kevinwang on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:19AM (#27855926)
Wow, I watched it and didn't realize. In retrospect, I think I actually did like the deepfake audio more than if a different narrator spoke, but it would have been better if there was a disclaimer in the beginning that he didn't actually voice them.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by hrh on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:56AM (#27853653)
Welcome to the future.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by silicon2401 on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:46AM (#27856169)
That's horrifying. Almost as bad is seeing that people think it's okay just because his family gave a thumbs up. Great example of people valuing convenience over principles. I would prefer simply making it illegal to use a dead person's image/voice/etc, at least for some number of years after their death.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by randomhodler84 on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:53AM (#27856235)
Once you are dead, you no longer own your body, your voice or likeness. You cease to care about nebulous worldly concepts like intellectual property rights.
Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by andrewzah on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:13AM (#27856404)
Those actions do affect your (living) family and friends. I would find it appalling if a relative or friend died and suddenly new works came out with "them" speaking via DeepFake/etc.

We could just dump corpses in an abyss and clean it up every so often, but we don't, for various reasons.

Re:A haunting new documentary about Anthony Bourdain by ad404b8a372f2b9 on Friday July 16, 2021 @12:22PM (#27857900)
If you think this is about IP you're completely missing the point.