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Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tut-urut-utut on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:27PM (#27774241)
The assumption that software can solve this problem is simply wrong. It's the regulation change that needs to happen if you don't want that renter pay the broker "services".

For example, a new law in Germany to apply the "who hires pays" principle for brokers in the renting market basically made the renting "broker fee free" for renters. Previously, the landlords would hire a broker that needed to be paid by the renter. Why not, it doesn't cost them anything, and at least they don't need to have a contact with the potential renters. Now, that they have to pay for the brokers service themselves, it's suddenly not that valuable to them.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by TheRealPomax on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:57PM (#27774714)
No, in the case of NYT brokers, software would solve the problem of NYC brokers, by putting them out of a job.

If you're from Germany, you have nothing to compare these people to, they run a racket that would be illegal there to begin with. They're nothing like the kind of rental agencies in Germany, they are individuals who basically figured out how to scalp entire buildings worth of apartments.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by kennywinker on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:55PM (#27775572)
Op suggested regulation. I.e. making certain practices illegal. You responded:

> they run a racket that would be illegal there to begin with.

Perhaps making it illegal in nyc as well, as op suggested, is the solution? Rather than letting a tech company replace the scalpers with a scalping monopoly

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by TheRealPomax on Thursday July 08, 2021 @09:00PM (#27779470)
And how realistic, exactly, do you think getting regulation pushed through in NYC is, exactly? Unless there is true citizen outrage (and there will never be, given what market we're talking about), you're going to need lobbied buy-in from currently sitting politicians and their successors. So if you're lucky, maybe you'll get something tentative in 2040.

In the mean time: software can solve this problem now. Now sounds good.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by kennywinker on Thursday July 08, 2021 @10:51PM (#27780046)
> software can solve this problem now.

Software can displace a middle man, and replace it with a monopoly. Once monopoly power is in place, Software will then become more and more expensive until it is as bad or worse than what it supplanted. Investors will get rich, there will be a brief bubble where some people will get a VC-funded good deal, and then nobody else wins.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by TheRealPomax on Thursday July 08, 2021 @11:38PM (#27780251)
You're going to have to work a lot harder to argue the connection between the first and second part of that first sentence, because one does not lead to the other. You might be right --I don't think you are, but you might be-- but right now that sentence means nothing, and that fully undermines whatever point you're trying to argue.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by LordDragonfang on Thursday July 08, 2021 @11:57PM (#27780329)
VCs don't invest in a product that won't pay dividends. Of course they'll drive prices up once they've monopolised the market.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by kennywinker on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:26PM (#27786830)
Are you saying that you don't think startups seek to displace middle men and create monopolies? or are you saying companies with monopolies don't exploit those to overcharge people as much as possible?

Because neither of those statements is exactly controversial.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by TheRealPomax on Saturday July 10, 2021 @05:58PM (#27796754)
What I think, and what you think, is irrelevant. Back up your claims, or they're just you trying to convince yourself you know something you don't.

Cutting out the middle man does not by definition lead to monopolies, especially not when the market has tens of thousands of sellers (if not orders of magnitude more), and tens of thousands of buyers (or, renters, in this case. And again, if not orders of magnitudes more).

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by kennywinker on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:24PM (#27802794)
It’s not cutting out the middle man - it’s replacing the middle man with a software middle man. The only way that doesn’t lead to a monopoly is if there are multiple software middle men competing. Like, do you actually believe that uber is just a platform connecting buyers (riders) with sellers (drivers)? It’s a taxi company. It replaced a dozen taxi companies in each city with a monopoly or an duopoly (when lyft is also present).
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by denimnerd42 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @02:21PM (#27775886)
do you think NYC making a law or regulation is going to lead to less corruption? This is NYC we are talking about after all.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by seigando on Thursday July 08, 2021 @03:45PM (#27776766)
maybe we can find a software solution to the selective enforcement problem.

;)

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by oconnor663 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:48PM (#27775488)
> Why not, it doesn't cost them anything

It can't be quite this simple. If your renter is paying $X to you plus $Y to your broker, then their willingness to pay for the apartment was at least $X+Y, and you're leaving at least $Y on the table. In theory there should be a lot of market pressure to shrink Y. So the question becomes, what transaction costs are getting in the way of that? Or maybe, is the $Y actually buying something that's of value to the landlord?

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by benhurmarcel on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:59AM (#27781429)
In Europe the broker/agency usually takes a flat fee at the contract signature. It's not a recurring payment.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by risyachka on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:12AM (#27780655)
Sure it buys some value for the landlord, but that value is very low and can be replaced by software for 1/100 of the current cost.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by gbronner on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:25AM (#27782945)
Rent control...
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by e12e on Thursday July 08, 2021 @02:18PM (#27775857)
> "who hires pays" principle for brokers in the renting market basically made the renting "broker fee free" for renters.

How can that work? Landlord (absent regulation) set the rents as high as they want/can get away with. What's the difference between 100/month rent + 50/month broker fee, and 150/month rent + "zero"/month broker fee?

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by netrus on Thursday July 08, 2021 @03:37PM (#27776690)
In Germany, the broker fee is a one time payment. That makes for an complicated calculation, as rentals are usually not fixed-term, and people will expect to stay for several years or decades. Is 900 EUR per month + 1,800 Euro one time payment better or worse than 1,000 Euro per month without a broker fee? Most people do not think like that. 900 < 1,000 Euro, end of story.

Of course, the real problem was that the landlords did not both to negotiate the brokers fee. There was a maximum broker fee defined by law, and everyone just charged the maximum. Not anymore!

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by caddemon on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:22PM (#27779225)
The broker fee IME is usually an extra month of rent due at the time of signing the lease. Because in certain cities the vast majority of apartments will follow this convention, and it's not really something that will be mentioned until you're in the process of formally applying (unless you ask), I don't see it having a market effect in the same way that raising the rent would.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tut-urut-utut on Thursday July 08, 2021 @07:30PM (#27778871)
Landlord already charges as much as they can. Increasing his cost will not magically mean that they can suddenly charge more than they can.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by nicbou on Saturday July 10, 2021 @04:21AM (#27791975)
German landlords can't set the rent as high as they want, for starters. At least not in Berlin with the Mietpreisbremse capping how high rent can be relative to the past, and to the neighbourhood.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by firestarter223 on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:55AM (#27780584)
I find that German law idiotic. Of course it costs the landlord something to hire a broker, even if the renter is supposed to pay the fee. It still eats into the overall budget of the renter, that could otherwise have gone to the landlord.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by allendoerfer on Friday July 09, 2021 @05:50AM (#27782053)
You can find it idiotic, but finding a tenant is quite easy in popular places, so instead of finding a way to increase the overall price (which is also regulated), the landlords often just do it themself. In unpopular places, it is hard to increase the price.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by titzer on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:37PM (#27774405)
The Marklers are such parasites.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by literallycancer on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:31PM (#27774306)
So the landlords just make the rent more expensive to account for having to pay the broker, what changed?
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by an_opabinia on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:53PM (#27774657)
> So the landlords just make the rent more expensive to account for having to pay the broker, what changed?

Nothing.

Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

My theory is the broker fee has positive selection for wealthier tenants, which for every property - low or high rent - makes for an economically better tenant. Raising the rent has the same effect. We care that there's cheap rent because shelter is a basic human right, and we appreciate that spending tons of money on rent couldn't possibly be good in a positivist economic sense, but of course raising the rent also selects for a wealthier tenant.

Replacing the brokers with software has a similar effect. If your users feel comfortable using a complicated website with no human beings involved, they are going to be wealthier.

This comes up everywhere. For example Oscar selects for a healthier insurance pool by being a complicated app - old people want real human beings to talk to and are turned off by apps, and they are also more expensive for insurance to carry, so it's a "win" for Oscar. Credit card only restaurants with lines make higher revenue because lower-ticket cash paying customers are substituted by higher-ticket credit card paying ones. And the iPhone is a $800 phone versus a $300 Android one, no wonder iPhone users spend 2-5x as much on IAP.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by crazygringo on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:52PM (#27775542)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

They were, pre-internet. It actually made sense then in NYC with such complicated and massive amounts of inventory.

They don't make sense anymore. The only reason they still exist is because lazy landlords just want to stick with the system they've always known, because it feels "free" to them. In reality they get lower rents, but that's harder for them to see. And it's a problem of coordination -- as long as most other properties use brokers, you really don't have a reason to change.

The slow increase of no-fee listings has changed that. But it's still slow, and a lot of it is new buildings. It's hard to get landlords who have done things the same way for 40 years to change.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by einpoklum on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:33PM (#27775261)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

In many cases (not talking about NYC here), what they're doing is simply blocking access to an apartment. You see an apartment, you have to deal with the broker / real-estate agent / makelaar. Or - you don't even see it in the first place, since it's only available via an agency.

This is similar to setting up a roadblock and collecting a transit tax; or the "troll under the bridge" from folk tales.

That being said - In some cases and some places brokers can help apartment seekers filter relevant apartments, and can help convince both the seeker and the landlord to compromise, agree to some arrangements to seal the deal. Another benefit of such type of apartment brokerage is that a broker with a minimum of reputation would not try to scam you (rent contract scams are a thing in some countries); and may be able to exert some pressure if, say, some serious problem is revealed right after you move in and the landlord doesn't want to address it.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by lotsofpulp on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:58PM (#27774737)
I am also under the impression that one of the purposes of brokers/agents is to serve as plausible deniability against accusations of discrimination.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by boringg on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:53PM (#27775554)
It also solves the problem of having to source tenants and do all the legwork around that which is a pain in the ass part of owning property. Especially if you own many properties.

It's not unlike the role a recruiter plays for jobs.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tjalfi on Thursday July 08, 2021 @06:40PM (#27778516)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

There's a great Joel Spolsky comment[0] that explains why landlords use brokers. They perform work that would otherwise be done by the landlord.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9961727

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by gbronner on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:30AM (#27782990)
Thanks! I've personally advised/warned a couple startup founders trying different variations of this. All failed
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by WalterBright on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:59PM (#27775629)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

Just like the real estate agent business. Sellers have the option to sell it themselves, or use an agent. Agents do better and more organized marketing, handle the paperwork for the transaction, and offer help in prepping/staging the house. Etc.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by sib on Thursday July 08, 2021 @04:51PM (#27777442)
They're also creating an implicit discount for longer-term tenants (which is good for landlords).

When I rented my place in NYC some years ago, the broker fee was meaningful to me. Once I paid it, I was less likely to want to move since I'd have to pay it again vs renewing my existing lease which did not involve another broker fee.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by udfalkso on Thursday July 08, 2021 @02:32PM (#27776040)
This is a fallacy, at least in NY. I asked my last landlord about this. I asked "if brokers can't charge renters their fee will you pay it instead?". He replied immediately, "no way, I'll just ask my nephew to show the apartments instead". I had just paid a 12% fee to a broker a year earlier with this same landlord! Thousands of dollars. The broker did very little for this exorbitant fee, they opened a door for a dozen people maybe, and uploaded a few pictures online. They were simply the gate-keeper and I had no choice in the matter.

The only reason landlords deal with them is that it's easier for them to do so, so why not. It's pervasive enough, as a quirk of history, that it's tolerated. They certainly do not provide value that matches up with their fees in most cases.

Rents may go up, but it will be only a fraction of the insane fees retail brokers in NY charge. It needs to change.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tut-urut-utut on Friday July 09, 2021 @05:07AM (#27781779)
That's exactly what happened in Germany. As soon as the landlords had to pay the brokers out of their pockets, they quickly realized that the "service" is not worth that much for them, so many went without brokers, and the ones that still kept brokers had to pay them much less than before, and the price was related to actual service provided.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by munificent on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:41PM (#27774478)
It addresses the principle-agent problem[0]. Yes, renters that want a broker may simply raise the rent to pay for it, but doing so affects their own bottom line because either (1) it's harder to find a renter at that higher price or (2) they could have found a renter without a broker and pocketed the higher rent themselves.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by 988747 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:46PM (#27774546)
Both of those things happen regardless of who formally pays the fee: one side of the transaction has a desirable good (apartment) the other side only has money to bargain with, so it's obvious from who's pocket the fee will come from. Many times the buyer would openly raise that argument in negotiations: "You know, I have all those fees to pay, can you lower the rent a bit?". It's not like sellers are completely oblivious to fees paid by a buyer.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by munificent on Thursday July 08, 2021 @03:08PM (#27776419)
> so it's obvious from who's pocket the fee will come from.

Yes. The problem is that the one whose pocket the money comes from is not the one who selects the broker. Thus the person with the financial incentive to make that choice wisely is not the one making the choice. This is why it's a principle-agent problem.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by 988747 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @05:08PM (#27777638)
My point is that landlords still do realize that "more money for the broker == less money for me", even if this money is not coming directly from their pocket. So they still have incentive to choose a cheap one.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by caddemon on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:48PM (#27779405)
I'm honestly not sure to what extent that is true. I definitely don't think it is 1 to 1. Apartments are advertised at $X rent per month. The broker fee is just an extra month of rent due at signing, it is not reflected in the main list price.

The majority of apartments in certain cities charge this fee, so if you care to find one that doesn't you'd have to look for advertisements explicitly mentioning "no agent/broker fee". Maybe it's just my circle, but even the people I know that will look in less desirable locations for cheaper rent do not bother to look for this. It's also not far off from various psychological tricks seen in business - consumers do not behave rationally.

I'd argue it's even a bit worse than other sticker price bait and switch situations, because how many people know to look for this? Mostly only people that have signed a lease in one of these cities before, which for a place with a lot of transplants and subletting can be a surprisingly small number.

At some point I wouldn't even call it irrational to ignore the fee. Once you've decided on a place and receive the rental app to fill out, are you really going to turn back because you found out about the agent fee? Especially as time runs out to find a place and you realize more than half of them do the exact same thing?

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some landlords have come to an agreement with the agent they use to get a bit of a kickback from the broker fee, unbeknownst to the buyer.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by joshuaissac on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:03PM (#27774811)
When the person choosing the broker is the same one that pays, it creates competition on fees. The renter cannot choose to change the agent to a cheaper one. They have to deal with whatever agent the landlord has chosen.

It works similarly when software is chosen by people who have to use it versus those who do not. IDEs and text editors are usually chosen by the users, so there is competition on usability between different options. Timesheet and other HR software are usually chosen by upper management, and the people actually using them cannot switch, so there is not the same kind of competition on usability. Instead, they compete on other things that make them more appealing to those who can make the decision.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by heurisko on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:41PM (#27775368)
In the UK we banned letting agent (broker) fees charged to the prospective tenant for exactly this reason.

Tenants can't "shop around" for a different letting agent that won't charge them £250 for a £50 credit check. Landlords can.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by IggleSniggle on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:56PM (#27774711)
It has a real effect on the advertised price, and landlords are generally in a better position to reduce the cost or eliminate it altogether.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by badestrand on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:37PM (#27774413)
Actually the brokers' prices fell drastically in response to this law. Probably because the landlords now have an incentive to take the cheapest broker.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tut-urut-utut on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:34PM (#27774358)
The rent price depends on supply and demand, not on landlords costs.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by dspillett on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:40PM (#27774450)
It isn't quite as simple as that in many cases. Kickbacks from brokers and other dubious jiggery-pokery can make quite a difference.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by bin_bash on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:48PM (#27774581)
Doesn’t it stand to reason that without broker fees the landlord margins would increase bringing more landlords (supply) into the market?
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by einpoklum on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:36PM (#27775298)
That's like saying rent prices depend on the will of god. Retroactively, you can justify this claim regardless of what happened: "It was god's will" or "You had to adapt your price to the demand".
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by dspillett on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#27774381)
Less admin for the tenant? More up-front pricing (assuming the broker fee was not required to be obviously disclosed) for them too?
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by iFreilicht on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:48PM (#27785672)
I liked the idea of that law, but in high-density areas, it didn't change anything. The renters are now implicitly expected to cover the broker fee for thee landlord. If they don't offer that in advance, they won't get the apartment.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by nicbou on Saturday July 10, 2021 @04:22AM (#27791980)
I have never heard of such a thing, but before 2015 Makler fees were ubiquitous. I live in Berlin.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by pishpash on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:41PM (#27774473)
That and the entire rental background check industry. $30-$50 fees for each submission of the same report on what is effectively your own data.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by xadhominemx on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:46PM (#27774553)
It’s necessary in many markets IMO. Otherwise people would just spam applications at every apartment that satisfies their broad filters.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by maest on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:02PM (#27774793)
So charge per application, with the money going towards first month's rent, if successful.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by xadhominemx on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:46PM (#27775455)
That’s how it usually works
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by pishpash on Thursday July 08, 2021 @04:15PM (#27777069)
I've never seen it go towards first month's rent, but that's not the point. The money isn't going to the landlord or the tenant, but to the data aggregators.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by xadhominemx on Thursday July 08, 2021 @04:25PM (#27777156)
A lot of it is highly manual on the back end, calling and faxing random state agencies. It’s not like it’s a 90% operating margin business or a lot of companies would be getting in and driving pricing down.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by pishpash on Thursday July 08, 2021 @04:47PM (#27777400)
Pretty sure it's infinite% margin when the same report is sent again for another application fee.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by xadhominemx on Thursday July 08, 2021 @06:00PM (#27778153)
If you believe this you should get into the business
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by hammock on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:16PM (#27775033)
That's what a lot of places do
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by pishpash on Thursday July 08, 2021 @04:23PM (#27777139)
Nonsense. Spamming applications is strictly better than spamming low-information contact requests, and nobody seems to mind that. Instead you'll get structured applicant information that can be filtered against.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by nicbou on Saturday July 10, 2021 @04:18AM (#27791959)
Yes this law came in 2015 and it indeed made a big difference. I saw zero downsides thus far.