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Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by literallycancer on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:31PM (#27774306)
So the landlords just make the rent more expensive to account for having to pay the broker, what changed?
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by an_opabinia on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:53PM (#27774657)
> So the landlords just make the rent more expensive to account for having to pay the broker, what changed?

Nothing.

Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

My theory is the broker fee has positive selection for wealthier tenants, which for every property - low or high rent - makes for an economically better tenant. Raising the rent has the same effect. We care that there's cheap rent because shelter is a basic human right, and we appreciate that spending tons of money on rent couldn't possibly be good in a positivist economic sense, but of course raising the rent also selects for a wealthier tenant.

Replacing the brokers with software has a similar effect. If your users feel comfortable using a complicated website with no human beings involved, they are going to be wealthier.

This comes up everywhere. For example Oscar selects for a healthier insurance pool by being a complicated app - old people want real human beings to talk to and are turned off by apps, and they are also more expensive for insurance to carry, so it's a "win" for Oscar. Credit card only restaurants with lines make higher revenue because lower-ticket cash paying customers are substituted by higher-ticket credit card paying ones. And the iPhone is a $800 phone versus a $300 Android one, no wonder iPhone users spend 2-5x as much on IAP.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by crazygringo on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:52PM (#27775542)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

They were, pre-internet. It actually made sense then in NYC with such complicated and massive amounts of inventory.

They don't make sense anymore. The only reason they still exist is because lazy landlords just want to stick with the system they've always known, because it feels "free" to them. In reality they get lower rents, but that's harder for them to see. And it's a problem of coordination -- as long as most other properties use brokers, you really don't have a reason to change.

The slow increase of no-fee listings has changed that. But it's still slow, and a lot of it is new buildings. It's hard to get landlords who have done things the same way for 40 years to change.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by einpoklum on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:33PM (#27775261)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

In many cases (not talking about NYC here), what they're doing is simply blocking access to an apartment. You see an apartment, you have to deal with the broker / real-estate agent / makelaar. Or - you don't even see it in the first place, since it's only available via an agency.

This is similar to setting up a roadblock and collecting a transit tax; or the "troll under the bridge" from folk tales.

That being said - In some cases and some places brokers can help apartment seekers filter relevant apartments, and can help convince both the seeker and the landlord to compromise, agree to some arrangements to seal the deal. Another benefit of such type of apartment brokerage is that a broker with a minimum of reputation would not try to scam you (rent contract scams are a thing in some countries); and may be able to exert some pressure if, say, some serious problem is revealed right after you move in and the landlord doesn't want to address it.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by lotsofpulp on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:58PM (#27774737)
I am also under the impression that one of the purposes of brokers/agents is to serve as plausible deniability against accusations of discrimination.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by boringg on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:53PM (#27775554)
It also solves the problem of having to source tenants and do all the legwork around that which is a pain in the ass part of owning property. Especially if you own many properties.

It's not unlike the role a recruiter plays for jobs.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tjalfi on Thursday July 08, 2021 @06:40PM (#27778516)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

There's a great Joel Spolsky comment[0] that explains why landlords use brokers. They perform work that would otherwise be done by the landlord.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9961727

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by gbronner on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:30AM (#27782990)
Thanks! I've personally advised/warned a couple startup founders trying different variations of this. All failed
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by WalterBright on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:59PM (#27775629)
> Clearly brokers are doing something or else people wouldn't pay for them.

Just like the real estate agent business. Sellers have the option to sell it themselves, or use an agent. Agents do better and more organized marketing, handle the paperwork for the transaction, and offer help in prepping/staging the house. Etc.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by sib on Thursday July 08, 2021 @04:51PM (#27777442)
They're also creating an implicit discount for longer-term tenants (which is good for landlords).

When I rented my place in NYC some years ago, the broker fee was meaningful to me. Once I paid it, I was less likely to want to move since I'd have to pay it again vs renewing my existing lease which did not involve another broker fee.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by udfalkso on Thursday July 08, 2021 @02:32PM (#27776040)
This is a fallacy, at least in NY. I asked my last landlord about this. I asked "if brokers can't charge renters their fee will you pay it instead?". He replied immediately, "no way, I'll just ask my nephew to show the apartments instead". I had just paid a 12% fee to a broker a year earlier with this same landlord! Thousands of dollars. The broker did very little for this exorbitant fee, they opened a door for a dozen people maybe, and uploaded a few pictures online. They were simply the gate-keeper and I had no choice in the matter.

The only reason landlords deal with them is that it's easier for them to do so, so why not. It's pervasive enough, as a quirk of history, that it's tolerated. They certainly do not provide value that matches up with their fees in most cases.

Rents may go up, but it will be only a fraction of the insane fees retail brokers in NY charge. It needs to change.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tut-urut-utut on Friday July 09, 2021 @05:07AM (#27781779)
That's exactly what happened in Germany. As soon as the landlords had to pay the brokers out of their pockets, they quickly realized that the "service" is not worth that much for them, so many went without brokers, and the ones that still kept brokers had to pay them much less than before, and the price was related to actual service provided.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by munificent on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:41PM (#27774478)
It addresses the principle-agent problem[0]. Yes, renters that want a broker may simply raise the rent to pay for it, but doing so affects their own bottom line because either (1) it's harder to find a renter at that higher price or (2) they could have found a renter without a broker and pocketed the higher rent themselves.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by 988747 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:46PM (#27774546)
Both of those things happen regardless of who formally pays the fee: one side of the transaction has a desirable good (apartment) the other side only has money to bargain with, so it's obvious from who's pocket the fee will come from. Many times the buyer would openly raise that argument in negotiations: "You know, I have all those fees to pay, can you lower the rent a bit?". It's not like sellers are completely oblivious to fees paid by a buyer.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by munificent on Thursday July 08, 2021 @03:08PM (#27776419)
> so it's obvious from who's pocket the fee will come from.

Yes. The problem is that the one whose pocket the money comes from is not the one who selects the broker. Thus the person with the financial incentive to make that choice wisely is not the one making the choice. This is why it's a principle-agent problem.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by 988747 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @05:08PM (#27777638)
My point is that landlords still do realize that "more money for the broker == less money for me", even if this money is not coming directly from their pocket. So they still have incentive to choose a cheap one.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by caddemon on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:48PM (#27779405)
I'm honestly not sure to what extent that is true. I definitely don't think it is 1 to 1. Apartments are advertised at $X rent per month. The broker fee is just an extra month of rent due at signing, it is not reflected in the main list price.

The majority of apartments in certain cities charge this fee, so if you care to find one that doesn't you'd have to look for advertisements explicitly mentioning "no agent/broker fee". Maybe it's just my circle, but even the people I know that will look in less desirable locations for cheaper rent do not bother to look for this. It's also not far off from various psychological tricks seen in business - consumers do not behave rationally.

I'd argue it's even a bit worse than other sticker price bait and switch situations, because how many people know to look for this? Mostly only people that have signed a lease in one of these cities before, which for a place with a lot of transplants and subletting can be a surprisingly small number.

At some point I wouldn't even call it irrational to ignore the fee. Once you've decided on a place and receive the rental app to fill out, are you really going to turn back because you found out about the agent fee? Especially as time runs out to find a place and you realize more than half of them do the exact same thing?

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some landlords have come to an agreement with the agent they use to get a bit of a kickback from the broker fee, unbeknownst to the buyer.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by joshuaissac on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:03PM (#27774811)
When the person choosing the broker is the same one that pays, it creates competition on fees. The renter cannot choose to change the agent to a cheaper one. They have to deal with whatever agent the landlord has chosen.

It works similarly when software is chosen by people who have to use it versus those who do not. IDEs and text editors are usually chosen by the users, so there is competition on usability between different options. Timesheet and other HR software are usually chosen by upper management, and the people actually using them cannot switch, so there is not the same kind of competition on usability. Instead, they compete on other things that make them more appealing to those who can make the decision.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by heurisko on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:41PM (#27775368)
In the UK we banned letting agent (broker) fees charged to the prospective tenant for exactly this reason.

Tenants can't "shop around" for a different letting agent that won't charge them £250 for a £50 credit check. Landlords can.

Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by IggleSniggle on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:56PM (#27774711)
It has a real effect on the advertised price, and landlords are generally in a better position to reduce the cost or eliminate it altogether.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by badestrand on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:37PM (#27774413)
Actually the brokers' prices fell drastically in response to this law. Probably because the landlords now have an incentive to take the cheapest broker.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by tut-urut-utut on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:34PM (#27774358)
The rent price depends on supply and demand, not on landlords costs.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by dspillett on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:40PM (#27774450)
It isn't quite as simple as that in many cases. Kickbacks from brokers and other dubious jiggery-pokery can make quite a difference.
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by bin_bash on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:48PM (#27774581)
Doesn’t it stand to reason that without broker fees the landlord margins would increase bringing more landlords (supply) into the market?
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by einpoklum on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:36PM (#27775298)
That's like saying rent prices depend on the will of god. Retroactively, you can justify this claim regardless of what happened: "It was god's will" or "You had to adapt your price to the demand".
Re:We replaced rental brokers with software and filled 200 v... by dspillett on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#27774381)
Less admin for the tenant? More up-front pricing (assuming the broker fee was not required to be obviously disclosed) for them too?