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Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by cycomanic on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @01:49AM (#27757843)
In Northern Europe heat pumps are now pretty much standard for new homes. They reduce heating bills quite dramatically compared to other technology. In particular if combined with solar power.

One big advantage is that they can also be run in reverse so you could cool the house in summer (although you might need a special heat pump to do this, especially to separate from the hot water). In areas where it gets very cool, one can also use connect the heat pump to the ground as heat sink which improves efficiency even more.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by brtkdotse on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:10AM (#27758253)
Another thing Northern Europe has going for it is that we generally go all-in on insulation. 300mm of insulation are norm in newly built house, meaning you can heat a whole house above the Arctic line with less than 5000 kWh a year.

Insulation is _dirt cheap_ compared to lifetime heating costs AND it also keeps the house cool during the summer. Such a no-brainer.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by kpozin on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:18AM (#27758305)
Out of curiosity, what is the effect of this thick insulation on indoor CO₂ levels? Do these houses usually have ventilation systems that can compensate?
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by roel_v on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:02AM (#27758579)
Yes you need active ventilation systems, because the thermal efficiency is highly dependant on the house being airtight - to the point where efficiency scores are calculated by overpressuring the house (basically taping a huge fan into the front door with all other doors and windows shut) and measuring the pressure loss. When applying insulation, contractors have to meticulously use foam to seal everything up. It's a major part of the work when building a new house and just a few mistakes can seriously affect thermal performance.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by jcynix on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:50AM (#27758863)
Our house (with a ground based heat pump) uses active ventilation with heat exchangers (and pollen filters) and as a result we have better indoor air than we've had in rented flats in all years before.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by brtkdotse on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:45AM (#27758466)
Usually heat exchanger ventilations. Fresh air comes in and exchanges heat with used air coming out, so you get fresh air but with the indoor temperature.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by BizarroLand on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:54PM (#27763234)
HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilator) systems are really cool, too. They solve the ages old problem of bringing fresh air into a home without losing all of the temperature and humidity from the internal environment.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by tomarr on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:23AM (#27758338)
They are designed for a number of air changes per hour/day which would be analogous I guess. I can't remember the number but a Google will tell you, it's different depending on the kind of environment (office/home etc)
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by thebiss on Thursday July 08, 2021 @09:00AM (#27771356)
We have insulation thickness standards in the US, varying by weather "zone", but for residential construction they seem to be lightly enforced, and efficiency tests are rare to non-existant. (For an illustration of how we typically insulate, see [0].)

It's only one data point, but I'm in New England and from my home office I've watched builders replace 3 1960's-era homes with large colonials. Each is insulated with fiberglass, no visible foam, and nothing outside the sheathing (exterior plywood) except vapor paper / tyvek.

Sure, it meets code requirements for inches of insulation, but it's far from air tight or efficient.

[0] https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/where-insulate-home

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by z3t4 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:43AM (#27759224)
The isolation is made to keep the house hot. About 10 degrees hotter then the outside (without the heater on). This is usually not a problem as temperatures are around 15 during the summer and you can open a few windows to let the hot air out. It does become a problem however when we get extreme temperatures like +30 C as you cant lower the temp by opening a window. Compared to south europe and other warm climates where the houses are built to stay cool.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by wodenokoto on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:19AM (#27759407)
Glass helps trap solar heat, but other than that any form of insulation keeps heat from entering and escaping.

This is how your thermos knows wether to keep your drink hot or cold.

So except for the sun shining through windows, insulation keeps heat out of your house.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by z3t4 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @09:12AM (#27771488)
new product idea: black plate (same as Northern roofs) thermos with glass windows. Would only work if you wanted to keep the drink hot though.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by konschubert on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:10AM (#27759367)
As far as I know, Insulation should keep the house cool in summer, because it keeps the heat out.

Of course, once the heat is in, you need a way to get it out (at night, through windows).

Unlike a greenhouse, insulation is not directional.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by z3t4 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @09:26AM (#27771667)
It basically becomes a greenhouse if you have windows, and of course the windows have three layers which prevents the precious warm air to leak out. Also the roof is black metal. You basically don't need to have the heater on if it's a sunny winter day - because the heating from the sun.

The biggest problem though is the dryness during the winter, cold air comes in and expands, lowering the relative humidity, warm moisturous air is pushed out by mechanical fans. You get extreme dryness, lower then in the desert, which is not good for mucus membranes. I believe that if we could revolutionise air conditioning systems we could prevent the next pandemic (and maybe help the global climate).

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by bluGill on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:38AM (#27760401)
If you are only worried about natural cooling, insulation is not the answer. You want a poor insulated house with a lot of shade, and large open windows for the wind to blow through.

Most people these days want more than natural cooling. As soon as you decide to have an AC system installed more insulation is better for the reasons you state.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by brtkdotse on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:40AM (#27760988)
No. You never want poor insulation. Poor insulation means that the indoor temperature will always match outdoor temperature. There's not such thing as "natural cooling", only thermodynamics.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by bluGill on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @10:45AM (#27761690)
Natural cooling is about sweat (water evaporation), and staying in the shade. Lots of wind helps.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by giantg2 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:48AM (#27761076)
It depends on the insulation type. If you're using mass as insulation, it can keep the house very cool. This is a common effect in stone houses and barns as they stay closer to the average daily/weekly tempature because it takes a long time for the tempature of that much mass to change.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by larsalmen on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:46PM (#27765039)
Mass ≠ insulation. You can have mass as a buffer and regulator, but normally stone or brick and mortar houses simply shift the issues to later in the hot season. It is usually a more even temperature over any given timespan though, as you say.

I'd think barns would have very low mass in comparison to their size, but would stay close to surrounding temp by way of having very little insulation and being very "drafty"

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by giantg2 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:13PM (#27765281)
Yes, they aren't the same but can be applied to a similar end goal.

It doesn't completely shift the issue to later in the season. Yes, it will shift some of it, but you still have the night/day average effect. This can still be beneficial, especially if in a shady location.

Barns can be drafty if you are talking about wooden barns. Stone barns, or stone foundation barns built into a hillside, can actually be cooler inside than outside during the heat of the day. That's part of why horse owner sometimes leave their animals in the barn during the day and turn them out at night (typical summer schedule).

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by paul_f on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:59AM (#27760074)
Europe has milder winters than many parts of the world. A downside of a heat pump is the limitation on temperature range. A heat pump could never be used in Minnesota, people would freeze.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by LysPJ on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:04AM (#27760641)
Heat pumps are very widely used here in Norway. I wouldn't class our winters as "mild" :)
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by acdha on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @10:17AM (#27761385)
Ground source heat pumps work anywhere. Also, it's common to have a heat pump paired with resistance heating for when you're pushing the bottom of the range where the heat pump is useful (somewhere between -10 and 20℉ depending on the hardware).

That has similar issues with peak load to AC in the summer but most people do not live in places which are consistently so cold that you don't have a significant amount of time where the heat pump efficiency savings are substantial. As a matter of public policy, encouraging systems which work for 90% of the population is an easy call — especially because that can pair with code changes and subsidies which work anywhere (insulation, install of ground cooling loops, efficiency improvements, etc.).

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by paul_f on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:45AM (#27783128)
A ground source heat pump costs at least 3X a normal heat pump. The payback period might not make snese versus a furnace in most cases where extreme cold (below 10F) is common.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by throw0101a on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:25AM (#27760297)
> A heat pump could never be used in Minnesota, people would freeze.

Heat pumps work in Alaska:

* https://www.nrel.gov/news/features/2021/even-in-frigid-tempe...

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by bluGill on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:40AM (#27760415)
The more inhabited parts of Alaska are milder climates than MN, despite being northern they have an ocean to moderate the temperatures. Ground source heat pumps work fine in both MN and the most remote parts of Alaska - but at a much higher cost to install.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:30AM (#27760331)
That would be an air heat pump. Water or earth-exchange heat pumps can work nearly anywhere. This article explains it well:

https://www.nordicghp.com/2017/01/heat-pump-effective-temper...

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:58AM (#27760582)
Is it possible to hook up computer heat sinks to these things? I figure it'd be better to pump the heat outside my home instead of dissipating it into my air conditioned rooms...
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by landemva on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @10:25AM (#27761472)
I want that for my fridge. Move the compressor and radiator somewhere else than the kitchen.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:46PM (#27764464)
That'd be cool. Those things make a lot of noise. Would be nice if the refrigeration hardware itself was located as far as possible from the living areas.

What if homes had some kind of centralized modular heat exchanging infrastructure? That way we could move heat from hot things that need to be cold to cold things that need to be hot. Move heat from my computers to a water heater or something. Gotta use all that excess heat for something, right?

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by bserge on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:21AM (#27760803)
It would basically be a phase change cooler like the one used in a fridge. Very efficient, but quite big and unwieldy.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by elric on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @01:58AM (#27757884)
> One big advantage is that they can also be run in reverse

I don't get why this is an advantage. That's just plain old air conditioning, which is genreally considered to be a wasteful, energy guzzling luxury in colder climates.

The heat pump hype is a bit puzzling to me. Here's a TreeHugger article which puts it better than I can: https://www.treehugger.com/why-are-there-so-many-fist-pumps-...

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by jcynix on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:13AM (#27757946)
Good heat pumps aren't of the air conditioner type. Our heat pump uses two 60m deep drilled holes. Thus heat exchange happens in the ground, which is always more or less 10 degrees Celsuis.

Heat exchange in the house happens through floor heating. So during a hit summer, the reverse capability just pumps the cold water through our floors (controlled for the dew point) and the warm floor water into the ground. That, combined with controlled ventilation over a physical heat exchanger, keeps the warmth out. Or, during cool seasons, the warmth in.

Our heat pump uses about 1 Kwh electricity (from ecological resources like water or wind only) to generatev3 to 4 Kwh of heating. Without producing carbon dioxide. Airflow based heat pumps are less efficient, and more noisy outside, of course.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by elric on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:29AM (#27758030)
> Good heat pumps aren't of the air conditioner type. Our heat pump uses two 60m deep drilled holes. Thus heat exchange happens in the ground, which is always more or less 10 degrees Celsuis.

Good point. The source and destination of heat can be air, water, or "ground source". But it's still all just the same concept as A/C units. Pump heat to one place, using less energy than what it would take to heat it using resistance heating. There is nothing special about ground source heat pumps, except that they're a pain to install in densely populated areas.

All types of heat pumps, unfortunately, often leak. Depending on the type of refrigerant they use, this can be a serious climate concern as well.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by PeterisP on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:05AM (#27759641)
The special thing about ground source heat pumps is, well, that they use ground instead of air - and it turns out to be a really important thing because of the temperature differences between ground and air.

A/C or heat pump efficiency is directly related to the temperature difference over which you're trying to pump. If the temperature difference is twice as large, you need to spend twice as much energy to pump the same amount of heat.

Furthermore, the days where you need a heat pump (or A/C) the most are the peak cold/heat days where the temperature difference between your house and the air is much larger than usual. Because of this, a ground source heat pump can do the same thing by spending much less power than an air source heat pump, so it is "greener" - though the installation is more cumbersome and expensive.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by scotty79 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @10:24AM (#27761455)
However there are air heat pumps which differ from the AC ran in reverse only in how the heat is distributed around the house. For example with warm water in the pipes not just blowing warm air around.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by jcynix on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:00AM (#27758935)
There's no refrigerant here. Our heat pump uses plain water mixed with an anti-freezing agent. Just like the cooler in a car does. And there are control displays where you control all operating parameters.

As for the "pump heat from here to there" ... while we are cooling we are warming the ground below. And as at our place, the ground's consistency keeps the warmth rather local, we reuse it later when we warm our water during the night.

We do live in a densely populated area and about every fifth hoiuse built here during the last 10 years uses a ground-based heat pump. As for electricity use: each house has two hours of "blockage" where the pump is not allowed to run, so that the power lines aren't stressed. That's no problem at all, because all houses are highly insulated and thus buffer rather good.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by bluGill on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:42AM (#27760434)
There is refrigerant there. It is contained inside the system, and only your water mix leaves, but there is still refrigerant inside and it can leak.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by jcynix on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:14PM (#27765804)
That's correct. I was comparing our system to existing systems which directly use a refrigerant sent into the ground loop. Our heat pump itself is a closed system just as a refrigerator, and works indirectly via the water cycle used outside.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by sidewndr46 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:23AM (#27760832)
Is English a second language for you? I ask not because I am trying to insult, but what you are describing is just called geothermal heat in North America. It can also work in reverse if the air temperature is higher than the ground temperature.

Also, you have your units wrong. Electrical demand is measured in just kilowatts (kw). Actual usage is in kilowatts-hours (kwh) which is just an unusual way of saying joules.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by scotty79 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @10:22AM (#27761437)
Units are fine. He just said he gets energy as heat in the amount 4 times higher than amount of electrical energy he uses to get it.

It's fine to talk about it in terms of energy as it would be to talk about it in terms of power.

And I'd argue that kWh is exactly the usual way of saying 3600000 joules.

Also name "geothermal heat" for ground heat pumps might be a local US marketing term. In international English geothermal means rather what Iceland is mostly doing. Pumping water into very hot rocks deep below to extract heat. And it doesn't work in reverse because it would be additional work to pump heat into very hot rocks instead of dumping it into the air or into the cool ground 2 meters below the surface.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by sidewndr46 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:22PM (#27762859)
I don't know anything about Iceland but I am using the definition from energy.gov

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/heat-and-cool/heat-pump-s...

Geothermal works with either vertical holes in the ground or a big loop spread out horizontally. Neither one is very deep nor does it involve hot rocks.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by scotty79 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:20PM (#27765349)
Ah, geothermal heat pumps is perfectly accurate.

Geothermal heat on the other hand is a wider term https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heating of which geothermal heat pumps (ground source heat pumps) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_source_heat_pump are just a subset.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by jcynix on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:11PM (#27765777)
Energy is specified in KWh here, i.e. we have a metering system installed which states that our heat pump delivered 128024 KWh of heat and the electricity company's metering system tells me that it used 34844 KWh of electrical energy to do this.

Anyway, for one unit input we got about 3.6 units of output, which has been produced with an almost zero carbon footprint, as we buy only ecologically produced electricity.

And yes, English is a second language.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by sidewndr46 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:54PM (#27774668)
How does a meter compute delivered heat? Computing delivered electricity is easy, but to compute heat delivered you'd need to have adiabatic walls surrounding your house or something like that.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by brtkdotse on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:12AM (#27758269)
> Airflow based heat pumps are less efficient, and more noisy outside, of course.

This is only true when the ambient temperature dips below the geothermal temperature which depending on your location should make you prefer one over the other.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by jcynix on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:04AM (#27758969)
Germany. Where temperatures dip for some months below the geothermal temperature. Efficiency of air based pumps drops markedly when temperatures reach below 0 degrees Celsius.

And last but not least: ground / water carries much more energy per volume unit than air does. So air based heat pumps would make more sense in Europe's south and less sense farther north.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by brtkdotse on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:42AM (#27761016)
Modern water/air heat pumps have surprsingingly high efficiency down to -20C. We're running a 10 year old model that has no trouble heating our house down to -12, after which a direct electric helper element kicks in.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by mprev on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:20AM (#27757985)
What sort of problems did you encounter drilling two 60m deep holes? How wide are they?
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by jcynix on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:13AM (#27759037)
We did have no problems as the ground below consists mostly of clay for at least 100 meters. Two times at 60m was a political limit 10 years ago, because at 100 meters "suddenly" mining rules applied.

The tubes are about 100 mm in U-form, drilling mostly is offered in combination with the heat pump. And costs where payed of after about 7 years.

Costs and problems depend on the ground's structure. When I talked with the guys of the drilling team, they told me that problems occur if they work in hill regions with cavernous spots in the ground. That's because the tubes need firm contact to the ground to transfer heat.

Edit: here's an image of the drilling machine in operation: http://www.cynix.net/2008/img_1757.jpg and the tubes are those black ones on the rolls in the front.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by brtkdotse on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:06AM (#27758241)
Usually 100-150mm wide. You don't do it yourself, you get a company with a drilling rig to come out and do it. Costs around 5k€.
Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by chiph on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:13AM (#27760202)
Yes, air-exchange heat pumps have been around forever. But they're usually of the all-the-way-on or all-the-way-off type in the US. Newer systems use variable refrigerant flow and variable fan speeds to save energy, so they run more proportionally to the heating/cooling load. They have a higher up front cost so production builders don't put them in, but custom home builders will.

In cold climates you eventually hit an efficiency wall with the air-exchange units and need to use a ground-source heat pump, with glycol pipes being run deep in the ground to exchange heat. And/or also have a supplemental source of heat that only comes on during the very coldest periods (oil-fired furnace, natural gas, cast-iron stove, or even resistance heat).

In hot climates you can increase the efficiency of a heat pump by adding water mist, making it a hybrid swamp cooler. Evaporating water will take out a bunch of heat energy.

As was mentioned, insulation is key otherwise you're just spending money on heating or cooling the outdoors. Walls, door, and windows that don't have thermal bridges, controlled air exchange with the outdoors (ERV energy recovery ventilator units), and so on.

Re:The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy... by bserge on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:23AM (#27760830)
Compressors (the biggest power usage in an A/C) have gotten more efficient, plus they remove the fans in favor of dumping heat straight into the ground. That's about it, it's still basically an A/C unit.