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Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by warent on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @03:33PM (#27753225)
I always feel so confused by--and skeptical of--these kinds of brain implant technologies.

It says: "The chip then automatically triggers a light beam to stimulate the region, activating neurons that can override pain signals."

Isn't that potentially stimulating millions or even hundreds of millions of neurons? We don't know what each individual neuron is doing. How is it possible to do this without causing bizarre malfunctions of the brain at best, or completely lobotomizing someone at worst?

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by Retric on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:08PM (#27753602)
The brain is far more robust than often assumed. Read up on Anatoli Bugorski for example. He had rather significant brain damage yet there was virtually no damage to his intellectual capacity. He did suffer from seizures after the accident, but that’s about it.

These kinds of implants have serious risks including infections etc, but for people with long term chronic pain there are few options.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by BizarroLand on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:29PM (#27753833)
I've seen a few instances where pain management becomes the overall deciding factor in peoples' day to day life.

"I can't go to work and feed my family because everything hurts so bad" can become a common statement for these people. In addition, addiction to painkillers, spending a huge percentage of your income at compounding pharmacies, and turning to illegal and possibly dangerous drugs to save a buck or to fill the gap between your needs and the insurance companies' coverage are all issues that a non-chemical pain management system like this could solve.

I'm sure it's dangerous and weird to toy with your brain but for many people in America alone the risk would be more than worth the reward.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by goldenkey on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @06:20PM (#27755104)
As a chronic pain sufferer, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa basically saved my life.

The DEA tried to ban it a few years ago but too many cancer patients testified before Congress how well it worked compared to the prescription opioids. The DEA was forced to bow out.

The cool thing about Mitragyna speciosa is that it's a tree, a pretty hardy one. In my experience, the older trees have more potent leaves, but ideally, one could plant this tree in their backyard and never have to worry about being dependent on outside help for their pain ever again. You just dry the leaves and make tea from them.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by atatatat on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @09:33PM (#27756394)
I'd like to hear as much as you'll talk about this.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by hattmall on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @09:46PM (#27756474)
It's just Kratom. It's basically a low level heroin. It's addictive and not really a walk in the park and detoxing from it is very bad. Google Kratom Withdrawal.

It also fucks your kidneys, in a pretty short time of chronic use.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by goldenkey on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:23PM (#27764232)
Wow, smear campaign much? I don't know of anyone who ever injected this plant or did sexual favors for it. What about it makes you compare it to Heroin, one of the most addictive and elicit narcotics on the planet?

I've been taking Mitragyna for years and have no kidney issues. My kidney function is checked regularly and my GFR and BUN ratios are fine.

Secondly, any drug, even antidepressants, have some form of dependency. The withdrawal from Mitragyna isn't bad. With a simple taper, one can easily get off of it. I've done so myself a couple times. Google oxycodone withdrawal, Xanax withdrawal, Lexapro withdrawal..ad infinitum. Most controlled prescription drugs have far worse withdrawals.

Here's one bit of truth I'll agree with: buying Mitragyna from gas stations or head shops is a terrible way to acquire it. And these sources may be impure or tainted and cause health issues. Perhaps that's where your kidney damage statements come from.

Always buy Mitragyna from a reputable and GMP certified vendor. The American Kratom Association lists some vendors: https://www.americankratom.org/

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by atatatat on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:45AM (#27761050)
I was hoping to hear the parts that make those things more bearable than what they had before.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by goldenkey on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:33PM (#27764324)
It doesn't cause constipation like the prescription opioids. It's a partial agonist, so it does not build up tolerance and continues to work at the same dose for extended periods of time. It's all natural and a green leafy vegetable, so it's a good source of micronutrients. It is a better pain reliever, more similar to Tramadol/Tapentadol (partial norepinephrine agonists) than the other opioids. Tramadol is too weak and has a max dosage that is quite low. Tapentadol is extremely expensive and not covered by all insurances.

Mitragyna is affordable, shelf safe, and sustainable. It's a silver bullet compared to the unsustainable lifestyle that chronic pain doctors are pumping out with their prescription pads. What other questions do you have?

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by after_care on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:37PM (#27753910)
I’d also like to add that this new technology could actually have an impact on a smaller percentage of the body than pharmaceuticals do.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by hellbannedguy on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:17PM (#27754384)
I am so glad they are actively working on alleviating pain.

I know a guy who had horrid back pain. He was ok with opoids. He even admitted they reduced his pain, but he just felt better about life being on them.

His doctor just decided to not prescribe opoids for any reason.

My friend is miserable now, and takes too much Ibuprofen.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by orthecreedence on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:35PM (#27754620)
> His doctor just decided to not prescribe opoids for any reason.

From my unerstanding, you can only take them for about a week before they become addictive, and that in itself is fine, but they become less and less effective as time goes on as well. You've got to take more and more to get the same effect.

Opioids are really only good for short-term pain. Also, doctors are really under the gun right now because they have been overprescribing opioids for years and a non-trivial segment of the population (at least in the US) is addicted to them.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by nonameiguess on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @08:08PM (#27755931)
This is absolutely not true for everyone. I took oxycodone for three years without ever getting addicted, and it never stopped working. Thankfully, eventually enough surgeries and physical therapy finally worked to where I don't really need pharmaceutical pain management beyond normal OTC stuff, but for a while, there was no way I could have handled life without a whole lot of schedule II help, and I'm glad as hell this was before the addiction problem really took off in these economically depressed places among people who are jobless with terrible lives and no prospects and everyone blaming the drugs, so my doctors were never pressured into not prescribing them for people they clearly worked for.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by Retric on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @09:18PM (#27756313)
It’s a shockingly common outcome though. Long term opioid use occurs in about 4% of people following their use for trauma or surgery related pain.. The odds get much worse when prescribed for long periods.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by superduperycomb on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:57PM (#27754887)
I hope your friend can seek another doctor if this is debilitating. Empathy doesn’t always get a fair voice in prescribing guidelines / decisions
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by vultour on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:37PM (#27754650)
Any reason for ibuprofen instead of paracetamol? Ibuprofen can damage your gastrointestinal tract.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by nonameiguess on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @08:13PM (#27755960)
For me, I choose ibuprofen more often than paracetamol because 1) paracetamol carries a fairly serious overdose risk and is one of the common drugs people accidentally kill themselves with, and 2) paracetamol is not a true anti-inflammatory and doesn't help nearly as much with arthritis. Ibuprofen doesn't just relieve pain but actively reduces inflammation.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:40PM (#27754692)
Paracetamol can damage your liver. Neither are great options to take too much of.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by Ieghaehia9 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @07:26PM (#27755627)
As I understand it, paracetamol was discovered as the active metabolite of a much more damaging drug (acetanilide); and that most of paracetamol's effects is due to a metabolite of paracetamol in turn, namely AM404.

Why the pharmaceutical companies haven't done to paracetamol what they did to acetanilide, I don't understand. Providing AM404 directly would avoid the production of NAPQI in the body.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by filoeleven on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @07:15PM (#27755541)
More research is being done nowadays on various terpenes for pain relief. Unfortunately, because it’s strongly associated the cannabis industry, it’s hard to get past all the noise to the good information like research papers.

Most of the terpenes in cannabis strains are also found in other plants to varying degrees. Pure extracts are available and legal without question.

I can’t say much about their efficacy though, because I haven’t done a deep dive. Id love to hear from anyone who has done the research or has personal experience, especially without THC or CBD along for the ride.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by buu700 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @09:25PM (#27756343)
I had a similar thought, but in the other direction. I would be very curious to see how controlled doses of cannabinoids / cannabis oils compare to common opioid prescriptions for severe chronic and acute pain.

As far as terpenes specifically, I've been hearing some recent positive buzz about linalool.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by xkcd-sucks on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:36PM (#27753904)
>The BMI decodes the onset of nociception via a state-space model on the basis of the analysis of online-sorted spikes recorded from the anterior cingulate cortex (which is critical for pain processing) and couples real-time pain detection with optogenetic activation of the prelimbic prefrontal cortex (which exerts top–down nociceptive regulation). In rats

>Example ChR2 expression in the prelimbic PFC. Highmagnification (100x) view of the expression of YFP-ChR2 in the prelimbic PFC demonstrated the co-staining of pyramidal neuron markers (CaMKII) with YFP. Arrows point to examples of co-stained neurons.

(from abstract and supplementary info, scihub is kind of down)

On their own (generally speaking!), very few neurons "respond" to low intensity light. "Optogenetics" stuff like this inserts a gene encoding a light sensitive ion channel in order to make cells responsive to a specific wavelength of light.

So there's two types of targeting here: Targeting gene expression to a certain population of cells, and then spatially targeting a group of those cells with the light - Blue light doesn't travel very far in tissue. (Also targeting multiple cell populations within a region using multiple colors of light + differently sensitive proteins).

Of course your comment still stands - Presumably not all the CamKII-positive PFC neurons are involved in nociception, and rats can't talk about their conscious experience so the answers there are limited to what questions researchers chose to ask using the limited tools available.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by hall0ween on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @08:18PM (#27755990)
Expressing ChR2 at levels of CamKII is flipping crazy (but widely accepted by the research community). It makes up 6% of the proteins in the brain. Lol, I lol at optogenetic expression at that level as something that won’t have unintended consequences.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by mrtksn on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:01PM (#27753523)
It sounds like they depend on the smoke test, doesn't it? Despite the huge advancements in biological sciences, when I get interested in something and read about it I would encounter the "We don't know why exactly it works but it works" much more often than I am used to. It feels so wrong.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by meepmorp on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:06PM (#27753581)
Life follows a simple set of rules with an extensive set of exceptions.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by wallacoloo on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:38PM (#27753920)
Nitpicking here, I would tweak the wording:

> Life follows a simple set of heuristics with an extensive set of exceptions.

And that's OK: heuristics allow a person to intuit some high-level behavior without having to derive it from the lower-level rules (laws). It's readily admitted that the heuristic isn't 100% accurate, and when it's inaccurate you fall back to that explicit derivation process.

From the outsider view of biology, there appear to be many heuristics for which we don't know how to derive from the underlying laws. Chemistry, at various points in time, has had similar issues, but over time we've expanded the amount of things we can derive from underlying physics. Biology, I hope, will follow in time.

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by etrautmann on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:38PM (#27753923)
Yes, but there are surprising cases where broad stimulation is effective, like deep brain stimulation for Parkinson’s disease or cochlear implants. It’s surprising that you don’t need perfectly targeted stimulation patterns to achieve a therapeutic output, but often times it does seem to have a benefit.

We think you can do much better for many applications with targeted stimulation, and that’s the direction that many of these implant technologies are heading. I’m a Neuroscientist working on BCI

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by bserge on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:40PM (#27753953)
That's how most drugs primarily affecting the brain work. Not saying it's a good thing, but in the absence of better options, anything is better than nothing.
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by heavyset_go on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:41PM (#27754697)
> Isn't that potentially stimulating millions or even hundreds of millions of neurons? We don't know what each individual neuron is doing. How is it possible to do this without causing bizarre malfunctions of the brain at best, or completely lobotomizing someone at worst?

Many psychiatric drugs affect large parts of the brain despite the drugs' efficacies being determined by their effects on much smaller parts of the brain.

For example, some anxiolytic and antidepressant effects are mediated by changes at certain serotonin-1A receptors in certain parts of the brain, yet common drugs like SSRIs change serotonin levels all over the brain and body.

You could categorize SSRI-induced activation of 5HT2C receptors as a 'bizarre malfunction', as it causes increased anxiety and dysphoria, which is the opposite of what you'd want if you're trying to treat anxiety or depression.

Alcohol works like this in the body, as well.

I'm skeptical of most brain implants for other reasons[1], though.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27135696

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by ErikVandeWater on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:12PM (#27753648)
Humans are capable of building nano-lasers in the lab as of 2009: https://www.technologyreview.com/2009/08/17/210962/the-small...
Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by letswim420 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:07PM (#27753597)
Don't have access to the PDF but they might be using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optogenetics

This requires genetically engineered mice, which is why they only have this working for mice?

Re:A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain ... by jahabrewer on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:29PM (#27753827)
Article specifically says they use optogenetics.