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Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by macksd on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:41PM (#27669779)
Now if I understand correctly, unless someone inherits a private key of his, his bitcoins are effectively dead now, right? I wonder how this will impact the economics of cryptocurrencies over time: I'm starting to see more and more reminders to congratulate dead people on work anniversaries on LinkedIn, and it feels quite morbid.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:50PM (#27669826)
If he didn't have a backup plan in place to be accessible by his estate, then yes, the coins are dead.

The coins dying with him are actually the best case scenario for all other holders.

"Lost coins only make everyone else's coins worth slightly more. Think of it as a donation to everyone." - Satoshi Nakamoto

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by enkid on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:26PM (#27670121)
Unless this alerts people to the risk of losing a private key and they decide owning Bitcoin isn't a great place to store wealth.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:34PM (#27670183)
Unless they then do the most minimal amount of research and realize that unlike any other store of wealth, they can redundantly back it up in multiple locations.

You can even split up your key in an M of N format so that a) no single compromised location causes loss, and b) some number of storage locations can be lost without losing your key.

Can you do that with gold? Land? Art? Cash? Bonds? Stocks? All of these rely on either securing a single location where the wealth is stored and moving to another place is either expensive, risky, or necessarily impossible (land/buildings), and/or they rely on trusting some custodian to preserve your claim on that wealth.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by WastingMyTime89 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @02:51AM (#27672677)
> or they rely on trusting some custodian to preserve your claim on that wealth.

Is this going to be one of this discussion where people try to pretend banks haven't existed for centuries and work very well for pretty much everyone?

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by me_me_me on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:16AM (#27674269)
This argument always baffled me as pro crypto person. There is a subset of religious crypto zelots that see banks as evil incarnate.

Banks are example of what more-less people want from their currency. And crypto should be taking notes from CENTURIES of experiences. And not just shun it all and start from scratch.

Loosing keys to wallet is huge problem for ubiquity of crypto, and as a currency of the future it might be fatal flaw. If someone steals my IRL wallet, I call bank to cancel my cards and cry a bit about lost cash and hustle of getting all ID's etc back. If I loose crypto wallet, its gone all of it. Without proper precautions of multiple wallets and safeguards you risk loosing all your wealth in accident or robbery without much to do about it.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by enkid on Monday June 28, 2021 @09:52PM (#27670754)
I'm not saying it's not possible to back up the key, I'm saying if a billion dollars disappear overnight because one person was stupid, we don't know the way people would react to that. May be they would value Bitcoin more or maybe they would value it less. It's not apparent less supply equals more demand in this specific case.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @11:27PM (#27671405)
You're presenting this like it's a secret thing that lost private keys are irrecoverable.

It's not a secret. Immutability is one of the key features and regularly advertised part of the system. So much so that when that irreconcilability is violated (e.g. rolling back the DAO hack in Ethereum) it's seen as a negative.

There might be some morons who didn't do any research before investing, but they won't be a huge loss if they sell out and stay out.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by GaylordTuring on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:43AM (#27674472)
> There might be some morons who didn't do any research before investing, but they won't be a huge loss if they sell out and stay out.

I think you're underestimating the size of this group.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by csomar on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:59PM (#27670381)
I mean many people have been moaning about a wealth tax. This is similar to a 100% tax on wealth with automatic airdrops.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by jayd16 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:44PM (#27670258)
If everyone's net worth goes up, it's about the same as no change at all.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by Scaevolus on Monday June 28, 2021 @09:03PM (#27670422)
Every _bitcoin holder_, it's not like a country experiencing deflation.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by jayd16 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @02:11AM (#27672434)
How so? Prices aren't set by the amount of BTC in the wild. A currency has no inherent demand. No btc holder can offer any more btc for goods than before.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by GaylordTuring on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:46AM (#27674504)
Prices are set by the order books, including how many that are willing to sell and to what price. If a large amount of coins are removed from the market, and the buying pressure stays the same, that will lead to higher prices.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by jayd16 on Thursday July 01, 2021 @07:41PM (#27706269)
If they weren't being sold then, again, the amount available to buy is unchanged.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by senectus1 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:07PM (#27669949)
not really sustainable though is it?
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:26PM (#27670116)
Why not?

The currency is digital. If the current smallest unit is worth too much, then we can just increase the decimal places.

Bitcoin is not like gold where its limited supply makes it infeasible as a currency for a large number of people because the size of the coins for everyday purchases would be too small to physically handle (hence the concurrent use of less value dense silver).

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by meowkit on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:24PM (#27670098)
Bitcoins can be split down to 8 decimal places.

Given the current loss/mining rate its totally possible for BTC to become difficult to operate, but its also possible for the mining cap to be removed or for coins to be split further.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by lostmsu on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:27PM (#27670130)
8 decimal places are already bordering insufficient: there are real world currencies whose unit costs less than 1 satoshi. See https://www.fiatmarketcap.com/
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:40PM (#27670225)
Yeah, but in how many of those currencies are people actually using base units for transactions? I'd wager they're all trading notes denominated with thousands or millions of units for a loaf of bread, like the Zimbabwe trillion dollar note, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7832601.stm

Also, there is already a trick on the lightning network to trade sub satoshis without requiring a hardfork, probabilistic payments, https://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.857/2017/project/7.pdf

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by bpodgursky on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:23PM (#27670087)
The currency is deflationary but you don't have any fundamental issues until you have issues subdividing the currency, but given that the protocol supports dividing down to 0.00000001 BTC that's not a significant issue (and I'm sure the community would patch that long before it became a problem).
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by Alex3917 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:22PM (#27670077)
Completely sustainable, because coins are very highly sub-dividable.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by tacticus on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:25PM (#27670102)
Same as the rest of the coiner nonsense
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by taywrobel on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:27PM (#27670129)
I don’t see why unchecked and uncontrollable deflation of a “currency” wouldn’t be sustainable.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by mynameishere on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:18PM (#27670033)
Some libertarian crank (I forget who) said that the best charity a person could do is to cash out their fortune and burn the paper dollars. This is a deflationary event and does just what you mention--gives everybody a little gift. Somehow a cynical suggestion like that is considered serious now. Because it is high-tech I guess.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:23PM (#27670082)
Na, that's stupid with cash because we can arbitrarily print more of it. Any cash burning event would be of marginal collective contribution.

It actually matters with bitcoin because of the hard supply cap. Every lost coin shrinks the pie.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by jayd16 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:48PM (#27670290)
It doesn't matter with any currency. You don't price things by how many dollars exist. You price things at what people will pay. If the billions weren't being spent, its about the same as if they're never spent.

Printing money and giving it away causes inflation because people can use it to buy things but having money printed but locked away does nothing. If this money was locked up then its not much of a change.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by bradleyjg on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:29PM (#27670146)
“We” can arbitrarily print more Bitcoin or dollars. In either case you just need consensus among the correct group of people.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:45PM (#27670265)
Technically true, but the big difference is that if someone hard forks bitcoin to start printing more, holders will see their coins fork with the chains. You'll have both the old, hard money and the new diluted money, and the market will decide which one is more valuable. This doesn't happen with fiat.

Which one would you choose?

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by cyanydeez on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:35PM (#27670195)
infact "we" can just seitch to any other infinite coins cause again, theres barely anything but grandfsther clauses tying bitcoin to any realworld value
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by paxys on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:25PM (#27670101)
It does not give "everybody" a little gift, only people who already have money (since their existing money is now worth X% more). People with 0 still have 0, and people in debt have to work even harder to pay it off. Something that disproportionally helps rich people is the opposite of charity.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by dheera on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:10PM (#27669967)
Even if they didn't, the rest of the world could probably peacefully agree to a hard fork in which those coins stop existing.

One of the disadvantages of crypto, I suppose, is that people could gang up and hard fork against any arbitrary billionaire even if they were alive.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by cmelbye on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:18PM (#27670035)
Why would anyone do that? The stolen coins would become worthless as the other 49% of the network flee to a platform that doesn't come with the risk of arbitrary theft.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by anonporridge on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:21PM (#27670066)
> One of the disadvantages of crypto, I suppose, is that people could gang up and hard fork against any arbitrary billionaire even if they were alive.

This isn't unique to crypto. People have literally been ganging up against powerful individuals since pre history. Hell, it's common in the animal world. Young male lions often gang up to oust the old alpha and take over his pride.

And beyond that, our current legal system can go after any arbitrary person much more easily than it would be for the entire world to consent to hard forking to target a single individual.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by rawtxapp on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:19PM (#27670049)
If we know anything about Bitcoin is that hardforking it doesn't work and you end up with coins that are worth a couple percentage in value compared to the original chain.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by wmf on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:16PM (#27670013)
I'm pretty sure that's less likely in crypto than in real life.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by thatsabadidea on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:34PM (#27670186)
If I say hard-fork enough, maybe I sound like I know about crypto things.

You don't know what it takes to do a fork of bitcoin. Many have tried, none have succeeded.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by sneak on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:15PM (#27670010)
That's how existing countries and currencies already work, too.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by memco on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:55PM (#27669866)
Apple is introducing a mechanism to allow access to certain data after passing: https://www.cultofmac.com/744814/apple-digital-legacy/. It would be great to see more tools and services provide ways to pass on digital information so we don’t have too many haunted digital graveyards not too much digital treasure lying in waste.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by rawtxapp on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:14PM (#27670000)
Google also has a "dead man's switch": https://www.google.com/settings/account/inactive for the interested.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by adanto6840 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:19PM (#27670041)
Probably due to Google Suite -- perhaps they have something similar available at the administrator level -- but that link shows me: "The setting you are looking for is not available for your account."
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by dheera on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:12PM (#27669985)
As much as I hope nothing happens to me, I've always thought about writing a "dead man switch" piece of code that sends all my keys and passwords to a couple of trusted people if multiple signals all suggest that the unfortunate has happened.

For example, all of the following must be true:

* Zero Github commits in a week

* Zero Facebook or Instagram posts in a week

* Zero e-mail outbox messages in a week

* Zero smart devices switched on/off in a week

* Zero outgoing phone calls in a week

etc

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by gurchik on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:30PM (#27670154)
I've thought about dead man's switches as well, but with two differences:

One, I think a week is too short, as another person has already said. I'm planning a week vacation soon and want to be unplugged the entire time. Also, while rare, I can imagine a natural disaster could last longer than a week and the last thing I want to worry about is making sure I send a few emails.

Second, I'm curious why you want so many conditions to be true before the trigger? I've seen services (and I've thought of setting up a simple self-hosted option) that simply email you a link on a predefined cadence and all you have to do is click the link. In order to protect against some weird spam filtering, I'm thinking a text message or Discord message could also be sent. The odds of both breaking for a month I think is rare. Why might I also want Github commits and phone calls to be checked?

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by dheera on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:37PM (#27670205)
I might forget to click a link periodically, especially if I get busy, or take a vacation. But it's highly unlikely that I will be absent from an entire set of services like the above.

If I would forget to click a link, it's either because I'm super busy with work, in which there will be multiple Github commits per day, OR it's because I'm enjoying a vacation, in which my social media might be more active.

I have been away from technology but not for more than 2 weeks at a time. I suppose just s/week/month/ or whatever.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by hsbauauvhabzb on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:19PM (#27670050)
A week is a short amount of time if you ever take full blown technology holidays. Additionally, zero XXX could be easily broken by some arbitrary function (a Facebook app for instance).

I’d be careful to multi factor data decryption, the encrypted data must be released and some party you trust who isn’t likely to die with you holds a decryption code

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by bradleyjg on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:24PM (#27670095)
Use Shamir’s secret sharing algorithm. If 5 out of 7 trusted people want to decrypt you data there’s probably a good reason.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by sneak on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:17PM (#27670022)
You can just give private keys to a bunch of people, and give a cyphertext encrypted to all of them to your attorney, to be distributed upon your death.

Then you don't need complex technical triggers.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by dheera on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:19PM (#27670038)
I suppose. But that means I must find an attorney first. What do they cost, like $900 an hour? ... I think that's part of what I'm trying to replace by technical means.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by sneak on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:21PM (#27670068)
If you have enough cryptocurrency to worry about distributing upon your death, you have enough money to hire an attorney. (PS: they aren't $900/hour.)
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by dheera on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:27PM (#27670131)
Okay, I suppose I don't have that much crypto to worry about. I was thinking more along the lines of releasing controls to my websites I control, private repos, notebooks full of ideas, AWS keys, etc.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by sneak on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:52PM (#27670325)
This may sound harsh, but after you're dead, it's unlikely that anyone else will care about any of those things.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by Alex3917 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:25PM (#27670103)
> I think that's part of what I'm trying to replace by technical means.

Just use something like Dashlane. People can report you dead, and then you have up until your specified waiting period to mark yourself as not actually dead. If Dashlane goes out of business you'd need a new provider, but as long as you don't die within a month or so of your password manager then you're set. Much better than writing your own.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by sneak on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:51PM (#27670319)
This means Dashlane themselves (or anyone who hacks them) can read all of your data, too.

Also, you're almost certainly going to outlive Dashlane.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by booleandilemma on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:50PM (#27670308)
I've thought about this but I just don't trust myself enough to not mess it up and send an alarming and embarrassing email to my loved ones. I'm reminded of the accidental HBO email that got sent out a couple weeks ago.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by ipaddr on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:22PM (#27670074)
You are one power outage away from that email.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by xkjkls on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:24PM (#27670090)
What if you go on vacation for a week and your email server goes down?
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by dheera on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:34PM (#27670189)
okay well s/week/month/ or s/week/quarter/ Adjust it to something reasonable.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by xkjkls on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:50PM (#27670306)
Still seems kind of risky in a lot of ways. Like, you get in a car accident, and are out for some period of time. I don't want to publish my obituary too early.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by bewuethr on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:16PM (#27670019)
GitHub does that, too: you can designate a "successor". https://docs.github.com/en/github/setting-up-and-managing-yo...
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by cirrus3 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:19PM (#27670045)
I really like the idea of that upcoming service. But, not exactly where you want to store a piece of information worth $2B. A good old fashioned safety deposit box in a Swiss bank or something and several layers of trustees would be more applicable in this case.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by zucker42 on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:23PM (#27670081)
I would use Shamir's Secret Sharing and split it up over multiple different physical and/or digital locations.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by paxys on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:30PM (#27670148)
It isn't that much different from adding a beneficiary for your online brokerage account.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by elondaits on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:14PM (#27669999)
LastPass has a “dead man switch” where my wife (authorized by me) can request access to my account and if I don’t respond for a month she gets it.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by sneak on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:16PM (#27670015)
That means that LastPass themselves can access your account contents at any time, too.

That's an accident waiting to happen.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by tolbish on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:43PM (#27670246)
Not really. LastPass doesn't need a copy of the key for this to be secure. Only the person you have authorized needs a copy.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by mustafa_pasi on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:47PM (#27669817)
I don't think anybody is stupid enough to keep $1 Billion in some wallet protected only by their private key.

That would mean putting themselves in great danger.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by IMTDb on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:58PM (#27669887)
Or even dead at 41
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by paulpauper on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:23PM (#27670086)
but that is how btc works. All BTC are tied to private keys.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by vbezhenar on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:58PM (#27669892)
That's one of the sources of a deflation. Bitcoin was purposely made as a deflationary currency, so it does not change anything.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by msslx on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:44PM (#27669799)
social recovery wallets [1] may be a solution to this problem.

[1] https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/11/recovery.html

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by NicoJuicy on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:47PM (#27670279)
That's not a solution, that's another layer of abstraction to try to solve the problems of blockchain/decentralization for money with a new layer of issues.

Eg. The hashed list of emails. It's going to be a hard reality check if some of your "friends" don't have access to their emails anymore or just aren't friends anymore after x years. The amount he suggests is 7, which is insanely much. Even people have issues with their parents with money alone.

It's a nice fantasy though, but not workable in reality.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by thegreatpeter on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:45PM (#27669807)
But they’re not yet so 1B of Bitcoin just went bye bye
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by DennisP on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:53PM (#27669858)
Bitcoin has had multisig wallets for a long time: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multi-signature

So it's not that hard to distribute several keys of the multisig to various heirs, who would have to agree on any transfers of funds. Another option is to keep each key in a different safe deposit box, with a will stating who gets access to the boxes.

Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by xkjkls on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:27PM (#27670124)
Even with that, who do you trust to actually do any real transfer of your bitcoin in a fully secure way? Certainly not your lawyer, legal offices carry so many security problems. With a total of $1 billion at stake, there are some very real risks of attack.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by DennisP on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:36PM (#27670199)
I'd educate the people who will get the money. They get access to the safe deposits, and issue the transactions. With a multisig, there's no single point of failure, and with hardware wallets there's little risk of getting hacked.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by xkjkls on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:56PM (#27670351)
Maybe I'm just not aware of all of the Opsec things that have been done to make Bitcoin transfer stupid simple, but I have instant goosebumps anytime someone claims they can do something in an operationally secure way, especially when 10 figures of currency are involved. At that point, you need to be training your protocol to be secure enough to survive the team from Ocean's 11 or the Russian government, not just script kiddies with too much time on their hands.
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by booblik on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:24PM (#27670099)
Diamond hands?
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by paulpauper on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:21PM (#27670072)
it effectively reduces the supply by .13%, which is tiny
Re:One of the largest owners of Bitcoin, reportedly held ove... by BrissyCoder on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:30PM (#27670147)
If the same thing happened to total USD in circulation that would be $104000000000 going up in flames. Seems like a lot.