News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by TonyTrapp on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:22AM (#27423641)
I once sent in a ThinkPad for repair and Lenovo explicitly mentioned that I should remove any drives from the device before shipping it. I really think this should be the standard for fixing hardware issues.

Edit: This was during the times when even a layman could do it because drives were in a slot secured by a single screw. These days it might be more complex.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by satysin on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:58AM (#27424079)
This was my experience with a ThinkPad last year. They could not do on-site (in home) service due to the French lockdown so I had to do mail-in. They even emailed a PDF with instructions on how to remove the drive.

Sadly this is not possible with a modern MacBook. When I have had to send a MacBook to Apple (or a service partner) for repair I was instructed to wipe the machine (along with ensuring I log out of iCloud to disable Activation Lock and disable Find My). While it is good to ensure my personal data is not compromised it isn't user friendly at all to have to wipe my whole machine for a battery replacement :(

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by Symbiote on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:27PM (#27424432)
It's not user-friendly at all to require a machine to be sent off for a battery replacement.

For the ThinkPad, it's a 5 minute task which many people can do themselves -- certainly anyone who works in IT.

We've had less strict restrictions than France, but a couple of my colleagues replaced the batteries on their HP laptops. I sent videos, and they saw how easy it was -- less painful than a Covid test.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by alpaca128 on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:17PM (#27425190)
> For the ThinkPad, it's a 5 minute task which many people can do themselves

Which is still a step backwards. On my ThinkPad I can remove the battery in seconds without looking. Mainly because sometimes I had to disconnect it to reset it completely. If that would take 5 minutes or any kind of tool that's already hard to justify imho. What do we gain from integrated batteries? Nothing that makes up for easy replacement or, in the case of ThinkPads, the option to upgrade the capacity before the purchase.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:01PM (#27425836)
I appreciate the lower weight and size (and presumably cost) of devices, and I don't need to swap the battery often enough to justify batteries that can be replaced without tools.

Battery replacement is a once-in-a-few-years operation and it's OK for it to take 5 minutes.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by emerongi on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:15PM (#27427889)
I have the T470 (with swappable battery) and the T14 (newest T-line Thinkpad without external battery).

Weight difference is minimal, size difference is minimal. Yes, there is a difference, but I don't notice it really. And I'm someone who actually lugs the laptop around, on buses and trains and while riding a bike. Most people don't even really carry their laptops, maybe from car to office and that's it.

As a person who actually carries their laptop around, I appreciate the swappable battery. Train rides are much less anxious, no need to find a seat with a plug nearby, because I know I have an extra battery.

The T14 is definitely less portable. There's less ports as well, which is quite annoying. The only downside of the T470 is the screen - I like to work outside and a higher brightness screen is crucial. If I could have the T470 with a better screen and AMD CPU, I wouldn't bother buying a new Thinkpad.

I don't know why they call ultraportables ultraportables. Are they marketed for people who sometimes lift their laptop off the table and who are bothered by the "extra weight"?

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by fpoling on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:53PM (#27462820)
These days one can use an external battery over USB-C if the internal battery is not enough. And I can use it to charge all the devices plus there is no need to shutdown the laptop to change the batteries.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by fomine3 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:04AM (#27444713)
It's better to use T470 in your situation because T14 is just a cheaper T line product. Its design is less cared to be lightweight. Comparing T470 vs X1 Carbon would be better to compare portability by using embedded battery.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by alpaca128 on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:28PM (#27427223)
> I appreciate the lower weight and size (and presumably cost) of devices

The newest T14 is more expensive than my Thinkpad from the same series was - as extra thin, hard to repair notebooks usually are. It is a bit slimmer, but in the display part, not the base with the battery. It is a bit lighter, I'm guessing because of a plastic case? I'm not sure, but the case material is noticeably absent from marketing material and the datasheet, while in the case of mine both mentioned the magnesium case and internal metal cage.

Of course that's just a surface-level comparison. But after my really bad time with the Surface Pro I am absolutely not going to buy a laptop with integrated battery as long as I can avoid it. It's just not worth the pain if something goes wrong.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by type0 on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:42PM (#27427438)
>... I am absolutely not going to buy a laptop with integrated battery as long as I can avoid it.

Unfortunately it's becoming more and more difficult to find removable battery equipped laptops, what current model lines do have that still?

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by waheoo on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:36PM (#27426306)
Spoken like someone that should probably be using a desktop.

Personally, having backup batteries is a requirement for the places I work.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by gambiting on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:38PM (#27427378)
Yes, that's why USB-C powerbanks exist. I can charge my laptop from one and it's nicer than lugging around laptop batteries, plus the laptop can be thinner.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by waheoo on Monday June 07, 2021 @09:07PM (#27429477)
Such a bizzare way to respond.

Laptop being thinner is a trade off you're willing to make, I am not.

Charging a battery with another battery is extremely inefficient.

Lugging around laptop batteries is exactly the same thing as lugging around power banks, except laptop batteries don't require a dongle and a cable to tether you to a table.

Laptop batteries mean you laptop can continue to in fact work from your lap.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by alpaca128 on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @03:04AM (#27431434)
I am a big fan of removable batteries but even I can see the huge advantage of USB-C Powerbanks. An additional ThinkPad battery can cost ~$100 iirc. And this battery will only ever work with this specific laptop model.

A powerbank for the same price will probably have a higher capacity, and be able to charge any USB-C device.

All this is not a reason for integrated batteries, but Powerbanks using a universal interface are clearly more practical.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by syshum on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:56PM (#27425768)
a few generations ago ThinkPad when to a dual battery setup so unless your ThinkPad is pretty old I bet it has both an internal and removable battery.

as to "What do we gain", they claim they can make them thinner and lighter, but the T14 seems to be the same Thinkness and a T450/T460 so.......

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by midasuni on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:46PM (#27427493)
I had a second battery instead of a CD, as well as the 9 cell. Trouble is the latches weren’t fewer, it would often slip out, and that would cause the machine to lose power momentarily knocking it out of “sleep”.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by ohazi on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @04:45AM (#27431975)
The T480 was the last T-series model with dual batteries. The newer ones all have only the embedded battery.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by greyhair on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @10:53AM (#27435973)
Let alone, impossible to do if the device will not even boot.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by cat199 on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:17PM (#27425196)
also relies on it being in working-enough-order to do the erase to begin with.. plenty of machines broken enough to not to power on but still hold data...
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by jackson1442 on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:47PM (#27427508)
I mean it's not like you're ineligible for service if you can't wipe your machine, I imagine there are alternative directions if that is one of your issues.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dathinab on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:00PM (#27424098)
Thinks have slightly changed since then.

"Keep Your Drive" is now a non-free (but not that expensive) "service upgrade". Disks are still removable on most models and it's not hard, but you still have to open the bottom of the laptop. (For ThinkPads, through ultra thin models like the X1 or "unusual" models like the ThinkPad Yoga might be more problematic.)

EDIT: Through it also depends on you service/guarantee contract. If you normally have a service contract where a technician will come to you but for some reasons that currently don't work you probably can keep your drive anyway etc. Also KYD extends to some other cases.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by basch on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:12PM (#27424232)
>"Keep Your Drive" is now a non-free (but not that expensive) "service upgrade".

It's almost more of a donation in my experience. Don't pay it, remove the disk, no consequence. It's also a good idea to put the OEM ram back in the machine if youve upgraded. One of the few things they may balk at and return it unfixed.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by kelnos on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:38PM (#27425476)
In the case where you're sending it in for a repair under warranty, I imagine for some classes of problems the manufacturer could refuse warranty service if you've removed the drive, especially since most designs now make it really easy to accidentally damage something while doing that.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by syshum on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:59PM (#27425805)
In the US they would have to prove your removal of the drive is what caused the damage,

I am not sure how it easy to damage something when removing a NVMe drive, it is trivial to remove the drive and should not even come close to damaging anything

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by michaelhoffman on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:42PM (#27424683)
Put the OEM RAM back? Hard to do otherwise when it's soldered to the laptop.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by ziml77 on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:45PM (#27424721)
Well then you also couldn't have upgraded it which was a condition he specified for putting the OEM RAM back.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by Dylan16807 on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:45PM (#27425602)
Clearly. But it's a complaint along similar lines of laptops being harder to work on.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by acomjean on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:58PM (#27425793)
My first computer repair, (epson 486) I left the drives and extra memory in when I sent in for repair. It must have had something really wrong as I got back a new machine without the hard drive and extra memory I had installed. It took a little bit to discover what was going on. Long hours on the phone trying to get those back (or something back.. that machine was maxed out at 16mb? of ram..)
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by thefunnyman on Monday June 07, 2021 @03:42PM (#27426661)
M.2 drives are still removable in the X1 Yoga Thinkpads. The notable difference from thicker T series is that RAM is soldered.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dathinab on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @03:35AM (#27431612)
Yes but some of the more special models are harder to open.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dheera on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:02PM (#27427705)
> I once sent in a ThinkPad for repair and Lenovo explicitly mentioned that I should remove any drives from the device before shipping it. I really think this should be the standard for fixing hardware issues.

YES. THIS. I am in vehement disagreement with Apple soldering SSDs to motherboards for partially this reason (among others, including making data recovery much harder, and lack of user upgradeability).

Apple fanboys all over the world will hate on me every single time saying "What if I told you that Apple just makes the best PC". Fuck that. I want a removeable SSD so repair technicians don't need the SSD to repair other parts of the PC.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by hsbauauvhabzb on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:35PM (#27428145)
I own about 6 thinkpads. I bought the other 5 after realising how much of a dream they are to open. So easy thst I could instruct a family member to remove the SSD over the phone if needed.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by seabrookmx on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:26AM (#27423688)
You just can't. They're soldered onto the motherboard.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by bashinator on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:46AM (#27423941)
My Lenovo laptop has removable NVMe drives that are accessible with a philips-head screwdriver.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by seabrookmx on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:50AM (#27423976)
Sure but assuming the victim in the arcticle had a recent Macbook, it would be soldered.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by snypher on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:07PM (#27424192)
You replied to a comment about Thinkpads.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by seabrookmx on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:10PM (#27424207)
.. on a post originally about Macbooks :)

Apologies for the confusion. I should have said "Macbook" in my original comment.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by greyhair on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @10:57AM (#27436036)
Just like Thinkpad owners, to hijack an Apple thread. /s
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by TonyTrapp on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:32AM (#27423756)
Certainly not in every device. But access to the drive has definitely gotten more difficult on average. I also have a newer ThinkPad where the drive is still replaceable, but it requires taking the laptop apart.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by anshorei on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:04PM (#27425014)
Same here with Tuxedo Computers, I had already removed the drive because that's standard procedure. If a repair shop ever asks me my password I'm just going to another one because that is to me a clear sign they're incompetent.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by anshorei on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @11:10AM (#27516615)
(to be absolutely clear: I recommend Tuxedo computers. They suggested I remove the harddrive when sending me shipping instructions, something I had already done, but I found it very reassuring they said so and hence recommend them to tech-illiterate family and friends as well)
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dvfjsdhgfv on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:28AM (#27423715)
I believe Apple customers would have a hard time adhering to this policy these days.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dv_dt on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:43AM (#27423900)
When I sent my Apple laptop in for a battery replacement, their suggestion was to backup and wipe the drive.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by fishywang on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:48AM (#27423961)
Which is also quite absurd considering how much hassle it is to restore your backup once it's shipped back. (sure it's still much better than giving repair shop access to your hd).
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dv_dt on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:51AM (#27423993)
Yeah, honestly, I'm not sure why one couldn't run an external technician boot image, do minor checking for on-board drive health in an unused area, and never touch the customer data. Though sometimes I understand that the entire main board gets swapped. That would shorten the repair timeline, and the malfunctioning board can be assessed and repaired or disposed of on some other timeline.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by abakker on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:04PM (#27424156)
Yes, but "hassle" and "security" are synonymous a lot of the time. even if their policy was that they didn't use the boot drive, I'd rather wipe it. No reason to give someone your data, your employers' data, etc.

And as someone who has recently had a MacBook Pro repaired, they swapped virtually everything. Keyboard, Mboard, Touch Bar, etc. the only original thing now is the screen. I would have had to restore from backup anyway. As a plus, my SSD is now brand new so any wear on it after 2.9 years of service is gone :)

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by whitexn--g28h on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:29PM (#27424461)
You can only wipe the drive if the computer will boot, not something a lot of devices that need repair are happy to do.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by abakker on Monday June 07, 2021 @07:06PM (#27428473)
Honestly, I've not had this particular issue in about 10 years, but you're right. If it is dead enough it won't boot, then I guess wiping it would be tough. For me, the combo of Target disk mode, recovery partition, or external boot drive have always gotten the job done. But yeah, if the logic board is really dead and not just "failing" then I might be tempted to use a drill.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by fishywang on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:02PM (#27424139)
yea. I can understand them suggesting backup your hd before shipping it to repair, because shit happens and they could need to swap your hd. but also suggesting customer to wipe it means even when shit doesn't happen customer still need to deal with the hassle of restore the hd once repair is done.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by nikau on Monday June 07, 2021 @08:19PM (#27429106)
Yeah but you get emojis where the function keys normally are on lesser laptops.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by tonyedgecombe on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:53AM (#27424011)
It's trivial to restore from a Time Machine backup (it wouldn't be much use if it wasn't).
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by ksec on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:47PM (#27427512)
Time Capsule was discontinued in 2018. I am not sure I want to trust Qnap or Synology on my TimeCapsule backup for Security Reason. I dont have another Mac to do Backup. And dont want anything to do with iCloud or iCloud backup / restore is very slow even with 1Gbps Internet connection.

How is a customer suppose to backup and wipe their devices?

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @03:11AM (#27431484)
Just plug a USB/Thunderbolt drive in. The first thing macOS does is ask you if you want to use it for backups.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dzhiurgis on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:06AM (#27446538)
Those top at 2.8GB/s these days, so about 6 theoretical minutes for 1TB drive. In reality it's probably more of a half hour?
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by rasz on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:23PM (#27425279)
Have you tried recently? Phone icloud backups are even worse.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by tonyedgecombe on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:04PM (#27426896)
>Have you tried recently?

Yes, it was fine. If you are in a hurry you can even boot from a Time Machine backup.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by aendruk on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:30PM (#27424472)
> this should be the standard

> Apple customers would have a hard time

I took it to be implicit to the wish that hard drives be owner-serviceable.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by Hamuko on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:40AM (#27423860)
I imagine that taking out the HDD would've been beyond most Apple customers even when the storage was removable and the computer was held together with (somewhat) standard screws.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by oneeyedpigeon on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:48AM (#27423956)
It doesn't feel like that long ago (granted, it was the best part of twenty years...) that my Mac laptop had a lever underneath which popped the HDD clean out. That was a lovely design.
Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by Hamuko on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:58AM (#27424075)
Apple has been making their devices much harder to open as time has passed. My 2011 MacBook didn't have any kind of a lever mechanism but after taking out about ten Philips 00 screws, the lid lifts clean open.

And now my 2019 work MacBook requires taking out non-standard pentalobe screws, then using a suction cup to pry the lid open slightly in order to cram a wedge tool in-between to pop it open and then you need to slide it out in order to actually get it out.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by dvfjsdhgfv on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:10PM (#27425114)
I'm an Apple customer and I'm happy with my pre-2013 era Macbook Pros with 2x2TB SSDs and 16 GB RAM, which is more than the basic configuration of modern offerings. Unfortunately, the last OS they can run is Mojave so I'll have no choice but to upgrade to M2 when M3 comes out.

It really makes me sad Apple gave up this environment-friendly policy and started to aggressively glue everything preventing upgrades.

Re:Apple pays out millions to student after repair techs sha... by type0 on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:46PM (#27427495)
> and started to aggressively glue everything preventing upgrades.

The best way to prevent such practices is not to buy their products.