News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by rgbrenner on Sunday June 06, 2021 @08:46PM (#27417802)
No. While most people (especially higher wage workers) get health insurance through their employer, it is not guaranteed that your employer will provide that benefit.

Prior to Obama, low wage workers might be scheduled to work full time without health insurance. If they're poor enough, they might get Medicaid from the state; otherwise they get to ruin their credit and claim bankruptcy if they show up at the emergency room.

Obama passed ACA, which required employers with full time workers to provide health insurance or pay a fine per worker. Full time is defined as 30 hours per week or more by ACA. So in low wage jobs, employers responded by scheduling people for 29 hours.

So if you work multiple jobs or a job+doordash/uber/etc... you may work full time, and not have any health insurance because no one employer is going over 29 hours.

ACA also expanded Medicaid, but some states decided to decline that expansion. So whether that covers a low wage worker depends on where they are, the size of their household, and their total household earnings.

For many of these workers, it's not just the risk of unexpected medical bills that they can't pay... they rarely have savings, so if they miss a few days of work (say because they contracted COVID), that can spiral into a series of missed bills. And with the eviction moratorium coming to an end, that now includes losing their home.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by at_a_remove on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:38PM (#27418088)
I very much face-palmed when Obama pushed through the "full-time" bit. The counter-move was obvious and it happened just as I would have expected. Surely Obama and his advisors would have seen that one coming, so I have forever been left wondering why that particular loophole was left open ... what was bought with that?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by sonofhans on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:21PM (#27418691)
Obama tried. The Affordable Care Act barely passed. He had to make last-minute compromises with members of his own party to get it voted through at all.

It’s not a loophole in the sense that it’s an unintentional exploit. Everyone involved knew full-well what the point of that provision was. If Congress voted in something more stringent, their corporate donors (e.g., Walmart) would have been pissed. That’s a deal-breaker for most Congress-critters.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by lifeformed on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:31PM (#27418746)
Probably one of the numerous compromises made just to get the bill to pass at all.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by neltnerb on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:54PM (#27418852)
The much more famous one probably being Liberman single-handedly killing the idea of the government directly providing insurance even if it is in fair competition, and then with Scott Brown briefly being elected in MA (which had Romney-care anyway and the ACA barely impacted most of us) everyone assumed it was a referendum on the ACA and was too scared to push any further.

It was very distressing watching the news spin it all as being about the ACA when it was definitely much more about his opponent since everyone here already had something analogous to the ACA. But that's how spin works I guess, it's certainly even worse now.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by michaelmrose on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:50PM (#27418140)
People can also buy health care plans directly through the exchange and use essentially a pre paid tax credit to directly pay part of their premiums. For example the monthly premium for a couple may be $1000 but the cost to the customer could be $300. At the income point just beyond medicaid eligibility this will virtually always be cheaper than what your employer offers.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by onion2k on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:40PM (#27418441)
29 hours a week is about 130 hours a month. Assuming a wage of $15 an hour, that's $1950. Spending $300 of that, about 15% of your pre-tax income, on health insurance is a decision few people would be happy about.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by PoignardAzur on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:05AM (#27420807)
Isn't that what your employer would pay on health insurance in any case?

Speaking as a French person, 15% of my pre-income-tax salary sounds close to what I pay for state-sponsored healthcare (I pay more than that, but it includes retirement contributions and stuff).

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by soapp on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:47PM (#27427500)
the trick, of course, is that your 15% gets you /healthcare/, while our 15% gets us a /healthcare-related financial product/, which will require even more money should we ever use it.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by onion2k on Monday June 07, 2021 @07:09AM (#27421191)
Isn't that what your employer would pay on health insurance in any case?

In the case of the UK where I live, approximately 20% of all government spending goes on healthcare. Taxes on businesses, retail sales, house sales, wealth, capital gains, etc all contribute to the cost of healthcare, not just income taxes. That means a lot less than 15% of anyone's individual tax is spent on it.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by the-dude on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:56AM (#27421103)
Is the tax to be paid on that income significant?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by rafael09ed on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:55PM (#27418519)
No one is happy with the American Healthcare System unless you have America's exclusive socialized Healthcare, Tricare. You're also calculating it off of part time hours.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by handrous on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:28AM (#27418999)
For foreigners or Americans without much exposure to the armed forces, and to save you a search: Tricare is what members of our military receive, active duty and (IIRC) those on full retirement.

However, depending on how you define "socialized", lots of people are covered under several "socialized" programs by the US government, not just Tricare. Medicare (old or disabled people), Medicaid (the very poor), CHIP and things like that (poor kids). Also, if you're counting Tricare, probably any health insurance provided by any level of US government (federal, state, county, city) to government workers should count.

In the end, the US government pays for healthcare (or, at least, much of it—US prices for healthcare are very high, and the way our insurance works means that insurance is just part of how the bills get paid, though a large part) for an high percentage of our population, one way or another.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by panzagl on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:36AM (#27419036)
IF you've never heard anyone complain about Tricare, you don't know anyone on it.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by yardie on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:05PM (#27426905)
Over 80% of my family is and was in the forces. They were all on Tricare, and complained. The ones that transitioned out now have to deal with private insurance and, in retrospect, Tricare was a teddy bear compared to what they are dealing with now.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by onion2k on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:14AM (#27419563)
I'm calculating it on part time hours because that's what this thread is about - how employers keep people as part time in order to avoid giving them health care benefits.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by yhoneycomb on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:45PM (#27418119)
When has any neoliberal policy actually benefited the poor?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by NtochkaNzvanova on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:48PM (#27418131)
All the time. Only it's the poor of other countries, not our own.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by yhoneycomb on Monday June 07, 2021 @07:05PM (#27428459)
True
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by refurb on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:23AM (#27419618)
Because you can imagine the incentives if a company had to pay for health insurance for a part-time worker who works 10 hr per week?

All those part time jobs would disappear since what kind of employer pay $5-10k per year in insurance premium for an employee who earns $600 per month before taxes?

And you might say “great! Who cares about part time work?” and you’d be wrong, plenty of people don’t need or can do full time work.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by edmundsauto on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:34AM (#27419661)
Wouldn’t a sliding scale make the most sense?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by refurb on Monday June 07, 2021 @04:14AM (#27420251)
Hard to make a sliding scale work when the scale is "the less you work, the less money you make, the more you pay for insurance."
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by sokoloff on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:13PM (#27418644)
What’s the practical alternative? Should I have to buy my house cleaner (3 hours every other week) health care?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by epistasis on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:53PM (#27418847)
This isn't really the same thing that Walmart is doing at all, they are scheduling people so they never get more than 32 hours a week, not scheduling them based on need for 1.5 hours/week.

There's room for a class of contractors that do small number of hours for many different employers, either many within a quarter or many throughout the year.

One practical alternative would be universal health care.

Within our current system of insanely bad group negotiation for rates, establishing a house cleaning union that could negotiate as a class would probably be the second best alternative.

The third alternative is the Obamacare one, which is to pay your employees at a rate high enough so they can buy their own subsidized insurance on the health exchanges.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by neuroticfish on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:39PM (#27418783)
>What’s the practical alternative?

Single payer healthcare, not that your question is sincere.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by jflesner on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:35PM (#27418764)
I like how baked into this question is how a practical single-payer solution is not practical due to purely political reasons. (Where your house cleaner's taxes pay into a large risk pool and their healthcare costs are based on their income)
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by amscanne on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:40PM (#27418788)
Serious question: isn’t this also what the ACA intended to address? It’s imperfect, but the ACA does provide subsidies for lower-income folks.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by elygre on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:08AM (#27418909)
Since you have skin in the game: how do you think your house cleaner should get health care?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by vlan0 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:32PM (#27418749)
What do you mean? Aren’t you technically paying a company for said service? Even if that company has one employee, your house cleaner?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by dragonwriter on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:37PM (#27418770)
> Aren’t you technically paying a company for said service? Even if that company has one employee, your house cleaner?

Plenty of people are hired for work like that without forming a business entity, and sometimes under conditions that qualify as employment rather than contract work.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by vlan0 on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:29PM (#27425356)
You're not wrong. But how could this apply to OP's situation? Given a 40 hour work week, three hours every other week is a mere 3.75%.

For the sake of conversation, let's consider the cleaner to be an employee and OP to be the employer. Even then, unless OP has 50 full-time and full-time equivalent employees, there is no requirement for the employer to provide group health insurance, according to the ACA.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by sokoloff on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:42PM (#27418797)
I’m not privy to her business arrangements, of course, but we write a check to her as an individual.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by davidgould on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:13AM (#27420848)
Do you provide her with a form 1099 at the end of the year?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by namdnay on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:57AM (#27419815)
Interestingly enough, that’s exactly how it works in France. When you pay your house cleaner you also pay the employment contributions, including pro-rated disability/maternity/retirement

Obviously if she only has one client that’s not going to be a lot, but it stacks with all the other employers

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by avianlyric on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:30AM (#27420631)
Your house cleaner is a legitimate contractor, with all the freedoms and risks that entails.

You would never be obligated to pay for their health insurance, it would be up to them, or their employer, to figure that out.

Walmart on the other hand has clear employees which are expected to turn up to non-negotiable shifts and wear a Walmart specified shifts. They’re currently forced to take on the risks of a contractors, but with none of the freedoms.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by ojhughes on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:46AM (#27419752)
Free healthcare at the point of delivery perhaps?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by thescriptkiddie on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:01PM (#27424131)
As long as we don't have free healthcare in the US, yes, you should have to pay for 5% of your house cleaner's health insurance.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by Spooky23 on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:30AM (#27419637)
Pretending this practice started with Obamacare is just not factual. Full time is a commitment to 35 hours a week, most retailers avoided that as much as possible.

My recollection from working at CompUSA in college (a big box Best Buy like store) in the 90s was about 50-70 hourly employees, with 10-15 full timers.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by gowld on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:20PM (#27418000)
But ACA created a large market for individual insurance, and 30 hr workers don't get mandated free insurance, they only get the right to buy into a group plan.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by koolba on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:25PM (#27418033)
At those low wage levels you’d either get free Medicaid (up to 4x poverty line depending on your State) or heavily subsidized marketplace plan.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by HarryHirsch on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:47PM (#27418127)
These plans are crap, you pay hundreds of dollars that you don't really have to get stuck with a deductible of thousands. Obamacare needs to die, maybe it does with the pandemic.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by lostcolony on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:00PM (#27418191)
I hate to break it to you, but most employer plans, even in tech, will have someone paying hundreds of dollars and still have a deductible of thousands. Only a few companies pay all of it (and, because we're talking tech, it's not that big a deal anyway since cost of plan + max out of pocket is < $15k).

The fact it's easier to afford if you make more money is...well, sort of the reason why people want it to be universal, and covered by taxes, so the rich can offset it for the poor.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by HarryHirsch on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:08PM (#27418242)
What I'm saying is that at the low end of the wage scale Obamacare is a public health hazard. You have people avoiding necessary healthcare because the money for deductible or medication isn't there.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by MichaelApproved on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:47PM (#27418468)
It was even worse before the ACA.

At least with Obamacare, you (likely) won’t go bankrupt if you break a leg.

You also get preventative care fully covered (or ~$30 copay) even with plans that have $6,000 deductibles.

That includes both low & high cost items, like annual physicals and colonoscopies.

No, Obamacare shouldn’t die (as you said in an earlier comment) but it should be replaced with something that improves on what it’s already done.

Personally, I favor Medicare for all.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by csa on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:19PM (#27418677)
I believe what you are saying is true in some instances at some scale, but I wonder if what you say is the median case or a sample case that you’ve been fed by an anti-ACA source.

My anecdata for people on ACA is that it works pretty well, with a caveat that premiums are high due to various misaligned incentives in the US health care system.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by csa on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:13PM (#27418634)
I’m not sure what your experience with it was, but in California it can be fairly cheap. Some anecdata:

- bartender friend of mine got laid off due to covid. With unemployment at ~$3k a month, he paid about $200 a month for insurance that had very low deductibles and overall seemed to be a good plan (silver). It was better than the plan I had as a university professor at a “good” university.

- another friend of mine started her own business. Very low income the first year (maybe $20k?) and was living on savings. She ended up paying about $100 a month for similar insurance to the bartender friend above.

The “downside” of these plans is that they scale aggressively with income. For reference, the entrepreneur friend’s business took off in year two, and now she’s paying about $1100 a month. This sounds high, but that’s what her group plan cost at her previous employer when you factored in the company contributions.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by mgleason_3 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:36PM (#27418767)
What? I’m on one of those plans and frankly it’s pretty darn great. The premiums are cheap because they are heavily subsidized. The subsidy goes up the less you earn. My generic prescriptions are cheap. The co-pay is $45 for most Dr. visits. I think the Emergency copay is $150.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by hnick on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:05PM (#27417906)
Does anything happen if they keep you back for an hour and you "accidentally" go over the 30 hours? Or is it entirely based on the contract?
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by lolinder on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:13PM (#27417957)
The threshold is 30 hours on average in a given month [0]. So, presumably, if you work 31 hours one week they'd make you work 28 the next to avoid you being labeled full-time.

[0] https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/identifyin...

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by kradroy on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:21PM (#27418007)
In many of those cases they don't officially record it and it's called "wage theft."
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by whoknew1122 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:17PM (#27417985)
Full-time is determined by whether or not someone works 'an average' of 30 hours a week. To qualify as a full-time worker, you have to work 130 hours a month. So your employer would just cut back your scheduled hours the next week to stay under 130 hours.

And employment contracts for hourly works are incredibly rare and pretty much nonexistent for part-time workers.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by Broken_Hippo on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:40AM (#27420680)
Unfortunately, in most areas, low-wage workers get no contract whatsoever: YOu can pretty much be fired at any time for almost any reason except for a few federally protected ones. Those are easy to work around.

I'm not sure if going over one month does anything, and it most certainly doesn't do anything in a week: Some places will schedule folks around 40 hours for a couple weeks and then nearly nothing for a week to get the average down.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by wombatpm on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:00AM (#27419476)
Failure to clock in and out properly can result in termination.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by a3n on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:51PM (#27418497)
The manager gets a stern talking to. Really.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by a3n on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:49PM (#27418829)
I have worked retail, and almost been physically pushed out the door at the point that my manager was risking a subordinate going over X hours. They are held accountable for it.