News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by zumu on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @01:53PM (#27279992)
> 2. Less trust in you as a YC startup. What if you fail? What if you sell out?

> 3. Requirement of email.

> 4. Telemetry and privacy concerns raised by others.

Dovetailing on these...

Like why is a CLI tool VC backed? Is the business model just selling our data? Is the VC backing for another product and the CLI tool is just a PR thing?

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by dvt on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:04PM (#27280143)
Just adding, from their website:

> Investors: We've raised several million dollars from amazing VCs like General Catalyst and Kleiner Perkins, and angels like Jason Warner, Adam Gross, Olivier Pomel, Scott Belsky, Will Gaybrick and a handful of other impressive dev tool founders and executives.

The fact that a CLI tool raised millions of dollars while also being basically powered by open-source contributions is also kind of a wtf moment to me, but what do I know.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by arcturus17 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:15PM (#27280288)
WTF indeed.

There has to be some grand vision behind this, presumably large-scale data capture. At the end of the day, the terminal is is to the dev what Google is to the internet user: the point of entry where many journeys begin, with dozens or hundreds of interactions every day. And while devs are a niche market compared to Google's userbase, they are a lucrative and strategic one nonetheless.

Casting aside the environment of low-interest rates and massive inflow of investment in startups, how does a product like this otherwise raise several millions? The pitch sounds like something that a competent indie dev studio could sell on the Mac App Store...

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by marlor on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @11:21PM (#27285863)
Yes, but when you’re Googling, you’re searching for public information.

When you’re using the terminal, you’re mostly manipulating your own data, often in ways that would reveal sensitive information if your terminal history was leaked.

Any attempt to collect data from users’ terminal interactions is indistinguishable from keylogging.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by meowface on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @02:14PM (#27294066)
They could rationalize it as only capturing the commands and not the arguments, or something. (If that's indeed the long-term plan. No clue; for all I know data collection isn't intended as the business strategy whatsoever.)
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by samblr on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:19PM (#27280323)
I just wanted be a fly on the wall when Fig founders were pitching to these investors on how they are gonna make money.

Can NOT this tool say to my employer - How many times I compile my code in a day ?

When I get a compilation error - how quickly it gets to compiling state again ?

Was the compilation error a trivial mistake ?

How much time is spent between each commands ?

How productive I am keying in command one after another ?

Also can NOT Fig figure out current apps Im running on my machine ?

What is the current app in foreground ?

How long I run each app ?

When I log off ?

How many times I log off ?

It is getting interesting! Can anybody help with more usecases.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by qbasic_forever on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:32PM (#27283587)
Your employer's group policy controls, management agents, etc. that control access to their internal network can (and are) already telling them all of that information. They're basically rootkits that run anything they want on computers that access their network. Usually they just distribute certs, keys, etc. or remotely wipe a lost/stolen machine, but the capability is there to do anything.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by Spivak on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:44PM (#27284733)
I think you misunderstand how tools like this sell, the enterprise offering will be fully supported integration of tools that are enterprisey (Cisco gear, Netapp, Fortinet, Xen, VMware, Veeam) and a hosted offering so teams can collaborate on scripts and snippets á la postman.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by tharkun__ on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:34PM (#27285089)
I saw the first few commands of the video on their site and I'm like "wait Wtf a visual representation of what hitting tab-tab does already? That can't be it"

But yes that's basically it. You have _all_ of this already and all it needs is for whatever tool you have to provide the "completion" definition file. The graphical nature of this makes it _less_ useful (as others have pointed out w/ regards to no Linux support). How this would sell to enterprise I do not get.

Kudos to them for getting funding for this tho. I wish I had the guts to take something that already exists better and free and ask for someone to pay me money to try and sell it to other people instead.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by azinman2 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:29PM (#27282196)
That’s one theoretical way to make money, except not only do few companies do this now, but few devs would accept that.

There are other ways to support developers thru honest tooling (eg IntelliJ).

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by fnord77 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:43PM (#27281581)
pretty dystopian
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by 908B64B197 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @01:47PM (#27293732)
> Can NOT this tool say to my employer - How many times I compile my code in a day ?

That would be a completely useless metric.

Also, don't you have a daily build pipeline anyways?

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by samblr on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @03:09PM (#27294760)
While debugging and coding.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by 908B64B197 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @05:23PM (#27296286)
Wait until they learn about incremental rebuild!
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by smoldesu on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:43PM (#27282368)
It strikes me as a pretty disgusting waste of "millions of dollars" to develop a Mac-exclusive app that does the same thing that your shell does, but slower.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by meowkit on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:12PM (#27280244)
Eh money is trying to park itself somewhere.

Maybe the founders sold this as a way to get dev telemetry data + a subscription.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by H8crilA on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:23PM (#27280359)
Yeah but if there's dev telemetry involved it's a no-go from me. Definitely a no-go, the terminal is sensitive.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by Grustaf on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:09PM (#27281942)
I mean, I agree, why is a cli tool YC backed, sure. But “several million dollars” is literally nothing in the VC space.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by Spivak on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:41PM (#27284707)
I mean they’re trying to be JetBrains but for Bash so it makes total sense to me why it would be a many many millions of dollars effort.

I think people forget that IDEs (which is essentially what this is) are a stupid amount of work. Then you have to add the rest of the business: sales, leadership, support, hr, ops. I mean a 25 person company $200k average total comp is 5mil annual burned cash just on salary.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by tharkun__ on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:36PM (#27285112)
This is shell completion that you can already do by hitting tab twice (if a definition file exists for your tool). If not, write a definition file.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by heyoni on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @09:56AM (#27290533)
This is Kite all over again.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by f6v on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:20PM (#27281238)
> The fact that a CLI tool raised millions of dollars while also being basically powered by open-source contributions is also kind of a wtf moment to me, but what do I know.

There's probably more money than people know what to do with. So they might be investing in completely crazy ideas hoping that the founders figure it out along the way.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by dheera on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:41PM (#27281563)
> There's probably more money than people know what to do with.

Not really, in the bay area engineers make $150K-500K/year (closer to the $150K end for startups) and office space costs upwards of $200K-300K/year.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by f6v on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @05:16AM (#27288124)
I mean venture capital money.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by ttt0 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:46PM (#27280672)
With millions of dollars you could probably just write a shell that does this sort of completion inside the terminal.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by hnlmorg on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:17PM (#27281193)
I did exactly that for free ;)
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by ttt0 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:45PM (#27281606)
Cool! Was it a one man project, and if so then how long did it took to get it to a reasonably functional state?
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by hnlmorg on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:39PM (#27282326)
It's about 6(ish) years old and went through various states of reinvention before I landed on the current design and it's been my primary shell for the last 4 years now.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by Hammershaft on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:20PM (#27282060)
Can we check it out! :D
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by hnlmorg on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:25PM (#27282139)
Sure, I'd love any and all feedback: https://github.com/lmorg/murex
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by f6v on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @05:19AM (#27288143)
> Sure, I'd love any and all feedback:

Here's one: you wasted a perfect opportunity to feast on that sweet investor's money.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by Blahah on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @04:08AM (#27287722)
Just commenting to appreciate the sea snail reference
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by mschrage on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:37PM (#27281487)
> Is the VC backing for another product and the CLI tool is just a PR thing?

Autocomplete is our first product. The bigger vision that Fig can enable an ecosystem of terminal extensions. Here are some early prototypes we built [0] and here is the discussion from when we were posted on HN last summer [1].

> Is the business model just selling our data?

We will never sell data. That just isn't the business we want to build - Brendan and I like hacking on the terminal because it's interesting and we get to solve our own problems.

We've been lucky enough to find investors, most of whom have an engineering background, who understand how important the terminal and believe there is a lot of room for improvement.

Obviously, we would like Fig to become a sustainable business. We plan to monetize in the short term by offering autocomplete for internal CLI tools and scripts. Longer term, we think that there is a lot of stuff that developers do in the browser that make more sense in the terminal. Fig's autocomplete product is powered by an API that lets anyone build graphical extensions that are connected to the terminal.

[0] https://fig.io/videos/old-sizzle-reel.mp4

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23766980

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by lasfter on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:58PM (#27281819)
> We will never sell data. That just isn't the business we want to build

These are just words from strangers on the internet. You're offering a free and auto-updating app. You don't give me a contract guaranteeing anything. Most terms of use/privacy policies have a clause stating it can be updated without notice and when you do have actual policies on your site I'm sure they will be similar.

At any point you can decide that actually, you do want to share my data, or share access to it through one of your products. Maybe you won't call it "selling" (the same way Zuckerberg can tell Congress that Facebook doesn't sell anyone's data).

Maybe you don't decide to share my data, but Fig gets acquired and the new management decides to. Maybe an attacker gains access to the data and shares it. Maybe an attacker compromises an update, turning all Fig instances into keyloggers, and paired with the required email addresses uses it to compromise other data.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by qzw on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:42PM (#27282364)
Good points. I'll add that the "disclosure by ransomware" risk is definitely not just theoretical anymore.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by qzw on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:39PM (#27282325)
No offense, but the only way I'll believe a company will "never sell data" is if it never collects any in the first place. Even if I have ultimate trust in the current founders, what happens if/when you're acquired or the investors install different management?
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by hwn65 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:46PM (#27283740)
Great. Looking forward to the Terminal App Store and learning why my company should pay you for the arcane knowledge of where bash_completion.d scripts go. Let me guess, a lot of emoji involved?

You are aware any shop with a modicum of competence is already doing what Fig does, right? Usually on a central or bastion server? What kind of TAM did you put in the pitch deck? People who can’t read man pages or pull apart an RPM to see how, for example, git’s completions work?

You’re probably going to price shell autocompletion per seat and you expect people to not think VC has jumped the shark? What’s your exit?

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by zumu on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:51PM (#27283791)
> We will never sell data. That just isn't the business we want to build

What about when that is no longer your call (e.g. the VC's want returns, you sell to Facebook, etc.)? Is there anything in place to protect us then?

> We plan to monetize in the short term by offering autocomplete for internal CLI tools and scripts.

I'd love to hear more about this. Sounds like the GHE model?

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by design-material on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:28PM (#27282185)
Why the fuck do you need my WORK email address with 2FA verification?
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by JediPig on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:58PM (#27284830)
My thoughts exactly, and it was removed instantly it asked for my work email.

No, No, and no. matter fact, it earned itself a forever no. thx have a crap product launch.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by f6v on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @05:21AM (#27288155)
> We will never sell data.

You can start by allowing to download the app without asking for email.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by saklani on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:38PM (#27283646)
The product looks cool at least from the video.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by heavyset_go on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:30PM (#27281385)
> Like why is a CLI tool VC backed? Is the business model just selling our data?

Agreed. Take a look at Nabu Casa, the developers of Home Assistant and Home Assistant Cloud. They are 100% self-funded by their revenue from HA Cloud and the hardware they sell.

Because of this, I don't have to worry about investors demanding a return on investment by any means necessary and potentially generating revenue from users' private data.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by version_five on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:13PM (#27281126)
CLI is a relatively "pristine" environment, where a lot of people's time is spent and nothing competes for our attention (or data as was pointed out). Any business model that could plausibly exploit this environment for financial gain would be an easy sell to investors.

I don't know anything about this product's intentions, but it's easy to imagine the possibilities once you start getting permission to pop something up in someone's terminal window.

Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by Grustaf on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:11PM (#27281965)
Well, it’s even easier to imagine that they will start charging money for it. If it makes life easier for developers they can easily charge 20 bucks a month for it.
Re:Launch HN: Fig (YC S20) – Autocomplete for the Terminal by heavyset_go on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:17PM (#27283438)
> once you start getting permission to pop something up in someone's terminal window.

Canonical already does this.