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Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by scarmig on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:06PM (#27186273)
Chinese propaganda is just so... Tone deaf. Give me a couple million dollars and a couple interns and I'm pretty sure I could do better than any of its existing organs. This isn't a particularly high bar: you could probably do better just by doing nothing.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by dalbasal on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:29PM (#27186508)
This is similar to the common sentiment people have about advertising: It's so stupid... never works on anyone I know. I don't know why companies waste their money.

Meanwhile, advertising is an industry that rivals energy, shipping and such. If that's not markt proof of efficacy, IDK what is. From the advertiser side of the advertiser-consumer relationship, there's no doubt of efficacy. You open an online business. No one shows up. You advertise. People show up. Profitable or not, the causality is plain.

Consumers only notice that ads piss them off. Advertisers only notice that ads make consumers do stuff, and both think the other is dumb.

Believing that Chinese propaganda is ineffective is naive. It's a carrot and stick system locally. Internationally it's just carrot, but carrot removal is a lot like the stick.

When Deng he decided to liberalize the Chinese market, he had some saying about the danger of letting flies in when you open a window for fresh air. Fresh air meant the economics. Flies meant cultural-political influences. Mcdonalds, yes. Youtube, no.

Now the tables are turned. US media, entertainment and sports companies want into China for its market size and growth potential. They enter on China's terms, and those terms are always unstated. Increasingly, they relate to stuff entirely outside China. Favoured companies will succeed, misbehavors will not and we will rarely be able to say exactly where "propaganda" is at play.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by scarmig on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:33PM (#27186561)
The structural kind of propaganda is one thing: make sure American cultural products have to respect Chinese sensibilities, and that's huge.

I'm speaking strictly of the hamfisted Twitter accounts and silly press releases that are meant for international consumption.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by dalbasal on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:49PM (#27186758)
I think the most hamfisted ones stand out the most, so we might be underestimating mean quality. Not sure it matters though.

Twitter sockpuppeting is a recurring red herring, not just regarding china. For all the attention it receives, it's not a major component of any major effort. FWIW, I don't think anyone's is particularly slick. It's not intended to be. At best, it's about algorithm hacks and generating a veneer of debate.

As "sentiment analysis" becomes integrated (intentionally, or accidentally) into recommendation engines and such... these may be more about fooling machines than people. Not saying this is a factor now (or ever, necessarily), just that stuff can look lame but still work.

This article seems to be referencing registered lobbyist budgets, which is another relatively minor component. It's also relatively easy to obscure, or act through proxies. In some cases, proxy can be fairly nebulous... relating to what you call structural propaganda.

The most visible parts are not necessarily good indicators, is my main point.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by thehappypm on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:14PM (#27187127)
Yep. I live right between a Home Depot and a Lowe's. I feel a better brand association with Home Depot. I couldn't really tell you why.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by chrismcb on Monday May 17, 2021 @11:30PM (#27190980)
Who has this sentiment about advertising? Some advertising is stupid, but in general it is not, and it obviously works.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by ravenstine on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:47PM (#27186727)
Maybe it's because people such as ourselves aren't the target of said propaganda. We're a small fraction of the population. Frankly, most people are content consuming drivel of all kinds, and propaganda may actually have an influence over them.

If that's the tactic, it's genius. Find the boundary where intellectuals dismiss the propaganda as ineffectual yet it still works on the 80% to some degree.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by atatatat on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:05PM (#27187024)
The future is the target — kids.

See: TikTok.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by capedape on Monday May 17, 2021 @09:13PM (#27190280)
This, and the World’s app appetite in general. I’ve noticed them up their maker game in various ways with other apps like CapCut which makes video editing very easy and is owned by the same company as Tik Tok. People made a big stink about Tik Tok’s privacy, but there are so many apps still in there with sensitive info going through PRC servers. Marginnote is another app that is so good for research on iOS. I was reading a very obscure book with it while also on the Marginnote beta. I quit testing and noticed months later, in promotional material, the book I was reading was displayed as an example in the iOS store. Could have been coincidence, but the odds are quite low. They are gaining in cool tech soft power quickly.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by FpUser on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:00PM (#27186931)
All you have to do is read user comments on news outlets for example. If those are anywhere close to representing general populace then it is clear that propaganda got to be dumb and something in line of "do not let the facts get in a way of a story".
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by briefcomment on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:15PM (#27186357)
What do you think are examples of Chinese propaganda? If it was good, I don't think we'd be able to tell.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Daishiman on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:40PM (#27186637)
Tourism has always been a way of propaganda.

Look into what are sold as the most attractive places to visit in a country. See that those places always sell a narrative as to why they're important for the country and unique in the world.

The US tourism industry basically sells NYC, Disney, Las Vegas and LA. NYC's best-known landmark? The Statue of Liberty, selling a narrative of a country of industrious immigrants. Disney? It's basically 50% of children's cultural consumption all around the world. Las Vegas, LA? Consumption and media.

For the record, the CIA used to sponsor a lot of artists and musicians around the world in the 70s as a way of promoting art the idea of the US a place of cultural and technological refinement, much in the same way that the soviets pretty much gave away math and engineering university books of the highest caliber.

What does the Chinese cultural industry sell? The Wall of China, properties associated with imperial dynasties, and more recently industry fairs.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Mediterraneo10 on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:47PM (#27187559)
China allows tourism, but I don’t think its present leadership considers it among the major ways to win hearts and minds. Restrictions on where foreigners are allowed to sleep at night remain in place, tourists are subject to the Great Firewall during their time in the country unless they know how to get around that, and some parts of the country that were quite open in the late 20th century and early millennium (Xinjiang, Tibet) are now much harder to access. Most of the post-Soviet countries hungry for tourism income and extension of soft power eventually lifted those kinds of hassles on visitors.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by gherkinnn on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:47PM (#27186725)
The US has few historical monuments.

But it has national parks. There’s also only one Grand Canyon and only so many Death Valleys.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by thehappypm on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:15PM (#27187144)
I'd argue there are many centuries-old historical monuments in the US, they're just primarily in one region, The Atlantic coast.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by dejawu on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:52PM (#27186800)
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by scarmig on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:25PM (#27186455)
I agree that good propaganda wouldn't be easily discernable as propaganda.

I'm skeptical that the same organizations that run the shitty Twitter fake accounts can simultaneously run actually effective programs. It'd be like Apple simultaneously being Apple and also running a shitty Etsy storefront that sells amateurish coffee cozies.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by briefcomment on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:31PM (#27186534)
I don't see why we couldn't have both good and bad propaganda. It would be a good way to throw people off, like you in this case. Regardless, there are probably many somewhat independent groups participating, of various ability. I doubt this is being done by just one micromanaged group.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Yoric on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:20PM (#27189115)
I suspect that HN-oriented propaganda will look more like academic publications, VC investors and job offers.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by 2020aj on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:35PM (#27186594)
Here's a medium post describing how they've been recruiting Western YouTubers: https://medium.com/swlh/how-china-is-influencing-youtubers-i...
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by sodd9 on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:26PM (#27186462)
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by phkahler on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:48PM (#27186739)
>> What do you think are examples of Chinese propaganda?

How about cancel culture? It may have started in the US, but I'm sure they're happy to stoke the flames. Or what about the phenomenon a teenagers thinking they're transgender? Sure some people are, but among teenagers today it's becoming sort of a fad (cult even) and it's heavily promoted on TikTok and other social media. Anything to create sharp divides of is something they might promote even if they didn't start it, it doesn't have to be pro-China propaganda.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Jommi on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:23PM (#27187986)
Study in China programs
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by president on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:13PM (#27187887)
Promotion of the world covid lockdowns. If you read the literature from the attorneys that have analyzed the timeline (Michael P Senger, Reiner Fuellmich et al), the idea of the lockdown came directly from western academics directly influenced by China.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Barrin92 on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:53PM (#27188893)
lockdowns in responses to pandemics have been around since medieval times. The quarantine is probably the oldest social measure against disease (in fact the word derives from the Italian phrase for '40 days' because that's how long Venician ships needed to stay isolated at ports). You think the fact that people in different places came up with the idea of "people spread diseases, so people need to stay in their homes" at the same time is some sort of 21st century academic influence campaign?
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by president on Monday May 17, 2021 @07:08PM (#27189483)
There's a difference between quarantining the sick and a lockdown of the general public. There has not been any serious peer-reviewed literature on locking down a population in modern history. I do not think jumping straight to a global lockdown on a whim because "China did it" is responsible and justified? If you do the research, you'll see that all the health experts in Germany who were the first to advocate for the lockdowns and PCR tests did so based on Chinese propaganda. If you go through the timeline of how the lockdown came to be, it is VERY suspect and reeks of malign Chinese influence.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Mediterraneo10 on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:23PM (#27186438)
I recall reading some study of employees at the Internet Research Agency (Russia’s most well-known “troll farm”). Some of these employees were Russian liberals and opposed to the regime, but hey, this was a paying job. Since they were not ideologically invested in their work and they knew that their siloviki backers had deep pockets and would keep throwing money at the agency regardless, they didn’t make any effort to sound very subtle or persuasive in their posting at all.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by yongjik on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:17PM (#27187171)
It's a classical (and, in this case, fortunate) case of wrong incentive structure. People who direct these propaganda campaigns are not rewarded by polling Americans for their perception of China. Presumably, they are rewarded by their superiors looking at beautifully curated Powerpoint slides.

You don't want to be the guy accused of using an expression that can be interpreted as China conceding $(some utterly inconsequential point). Guess how they will behave.

* That said, I'm sure some brilliant minds inside CCP already know this and are working on improving their methodology ...

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by sct202 on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:28PM (#27186491)
Honestly, they could do so much by letting some of Chinese TikTok out on to the international side. I've seen quite a few reposts on Twitter and Reddit from Douyin that are completely inaccessible directly, and if they were actually trying to get people to like them they have a giant bank of content that they could curate to show whatever they wanted.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by dageshi on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:37PM (#27186612)
I have been quite suspect of some chinese content that turned up on reddit at interestingly specific times...

During or around the time of the protests in HK a lot of chinese content started popping up in r/videos and similar in a way that was out of context for the usual content there. Then it disappeared again. I assumed some kind of manipulation was going on.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by jollybean on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:57PM (#27186888)
Unfortunately 'we' are not very bright as well, and by 'we' I mean the general public of any nation, including us.

We are very susceptible to messaging. Even simple things. Just a basic quasi-factual statement about Taiwan, planted in pop-culture, can influence us.

"Taiwan has been part of China for Millennia" that's technically true and helps the populist China case. Just reading that etc. can help move the needle.

I'm less concerned about their propaganda as I am their control of apps.

Media, historically, much like the financial system and telecoms, public works etc. has had national protections. There's a reason the CBC/BBC exist.

I'm very wary of foreign control of media. If you live in a small country, you probably have more sensitivity to it, as Netflix comes to dominate your creative landscape, it's a real issue.

TikTok is a much bigger concern than most people realize, although it's not an existential concern yet.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by dirtyid on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:22PM (#27187976)
IMO unreasonable expectation that PRC can out-propagandize US / west in their own territories which is not remotely feasible. This is on top of western MSM / softpower / propaganda apparatus already being much more developed and mutually reinforcing, with an entire ecosystem of NGOs and think tanks to launder opinion and set narrative. It's why PRC netizens and PRC western diaspora (well western diaspora from many global south countries) are frequently awestruck by how "brain washed" westerners can be despite having "free media" - US propaganda power is very sophisticated relative to the crudeness of GFW and PRC censorship.

There's also point that PRC's western propaganda has been mostly defensive, trying to explain PRC perspectives - Xi's "tell the China story well" and where most of the FARA spending goes. Whereas Kremlin is fine with going offensive by undermining US polity on domestic fractures because they know you can't counter-program against decades of western narrative that's ongoing. Exception is influencing diaspora populations, in which case both PRC and Russia are fairly successful. But broadly PRC has not heavily invested in attack yet.

And ultimately PRC global propaganda is not... terrible considering what survives the filter of western MSM, bad translations, exaggerations, omissions, outright fabrications etc. PRC still has more supporters for XinJiang being counter-terrorism than human rights abuse. Compared to global positions on US/Israel/Palestine. Or how polling still consistently conclude US is still viewed as biggest risk to democracy / stability. It took 10 years of pressure, sanctions and finally a pandemic for most of FVEYs to get on board of Huawei ban.

PRC will be wasting time refining defensive messages against the tide of western MSM. Better off going on offensive and weakening US society itself which compromise global alliances. There's zero amount of lobbying / propaganda PRC can do to affect US security planning, but it could absolutely compromise US systematically to undermine US credibility and shift global politics in way that favours PRC.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by optimalsolver on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:53PM (#27186810)
>Chinese propaganda is just so... Tone deaf

Ironic, seeing as Chinese is a tonal language.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by SkyMarshal on Monday May 17, 2021 @07:24PM (#27189574)
It's at least partly because the CCP allows no competition for or critical response to its propaganda, so it's never forced to get better.

Western propaganda by comparison must run the gauntlet of free speech, critical reception, and political adversaries, and as a result has become much more subtle, sophisticated, and effective [1][2].

[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

[2]:http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by rednerrus on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:09PM (#27188488)
TikTok is definitely affecting American brains. They are the cultural zeitgeist right now.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by estaseuropano on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:17PM (#27187169)
A. You only notice it when it is done badly, not when it works.

B. Repetition is everything. How many people watch RT and its wild mix of true stories (copy&pasted) and blatant propaganda and soak it up? Or vaccine conspiracies in mommy Facebook groups? Badly done propaganda repeated 1000x still works.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by d0mine on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:43PM (#27187494)
Could you link to examples of the copy-paste, blatant propaganda?
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by estaseuropano on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:21PM (#27189128)
RT broadcasts plenty of true stories too, mostly from Reuters, AP or simply translations of European papers. The trick is to report wjatever comes up for topics you don't care about and mix in false or misleading narratives on issues where you do, e.g. in relation to Ukraine.

Rather than expect me, random stranger, to point out what is or isn't propaganda, see e.g. that the EU has an entire site largely debunking Russian propaganda as Russia uses it so frequently and effectively:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/headlyin-and-deceptive-fiction/

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by tester756 on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:55PM (#27186865)
>Chinese propaganda is just so... Tone deaf.

So apparently it works? :)

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by whall6 on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:57PM (#27186883)
To be fair, $64 million for a government isn’t that much anyways.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by charwalker on Monday May 17, 2021 @07:15PM (#27189520)
Some 80 million Americans voted for and many actually think Trump won in 2020, regardless of evidence. Much of them also think the events of 1/6/21 were fake or a non issue.

Think of someone you know of average intelligence then remember that 50% of the nation is under that bar. That's a lot of voters.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by colordrops on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:41PM (#27186655)
You're only noticing the obvious Chinese propaganda. They've probably got bot networks that are using AI to generate responses that you'd never distinguish as Chinese.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by courtf on Monday May 17, 2021 @08:11PM (#27189890)
Absolutely. And there is still value in propaganda that is recognizable as propaganda. The meta game has as many layers as an onion, and one piece of propaganda can serve multiple purposes. Maybe a particular piece is obvious to spot, but the ultimate goal might not be so obvious. Idiots will fall for anything, but tricking the intelligent isn't as hard as we'd like to think either.

Perhaps it is possible to subtlety influence a narrative by representing it poorly in obvious propaganda, sort of like negative space a painting. And the more time people spend trying to unravel the knot of lies and half-truths, the better. The propagandists win when we are arguing about their nonsense rather than seeking truth directly.

As soon as you think you can spot the propaganda, they've got you, as they can manipulate the presentation at any time.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by colordrops on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:13AM (#27191994)
For sure, anything can be propaganda. Wouldn't be surprised if unwitting people are being used by software that corrals and funnels ideas into influencers without their knowledge, and without even full understanding by the people who wrote the software.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Impassionata on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:53PM (#27186820)
Half of the country thinks the Mueller report exonerated Trump. The body politic has become completely decoupled from reality.

If it's that easy for Russians to influence our politics, why wouldn't the Chinese perceive that there is low-hanging fruit in running general disruption?

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by thehappypm on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:16PM (#27187155)
And half of the country thinks the Mueller report showed Trump was undeniably guilty. The truth is in between.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Impassionata on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:22PM (#27187240)
See here's this guy proving me right. These nitpickers are extremely easy to fool into doing the work of propaganda.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by thehappypm on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:53PM (#27187625)
"While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by d0mine on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:45PM (#27187524)
Have you considered that « Russians did it » is by itself propaganda?
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by Impassionata on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:05PM (#27187778)
This is a stupid trap you're trying. See how they misdirect? I'm not saying d0mine is taking Russian money, I'm saying that the Russian money spent getting hooks into Trump leads inexorably to a bunch of chumps like d0mine trying to murk up the water in a shabby pretense of discourse.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by d0mine on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:19PM (#27196887)
the exact same argument can be applied in reverse (and the reverse is much more likely given relative military budgets of the countries).

Listen: If you are a human being: nobody reading it at this point; there is nobody to convince. Just do the math and make your own conclusions.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by notsureaboutpg on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:10PM (#27186307)
Indian propaganda is similar (I'm more familiar with it, being Indian).

You can see the parallels in how both talk about their hated minorities (Uyghurs and Kashmiris/Muslims)

My favorite was a recent Twitter account with a teenage profile picture, she/they pronouns, BLM, proud feminist, and TRUMP2020 all in the bio, and all it did was claim that Uyghurs are really being educated and that the decline in birth rates among Uyghurs by ~50% in one year, according to Chinese gov't statistics is just because they are being liberated, and basically all sorts of other genocide denial.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by _Microft on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:17PM (#27186371)
Do you happen to remember a Twitter handle? I bet one could use a single one of them to discover a whole network of these.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by notsureaboutpg on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:31PM (#27186529)
I don't, but they're easy to spot because they look really leftist and they often post about the left-wing news of the moment while at the same time downplaying Uighur atrocities. They often mostly retweet and are poor in communication when they comment. Here's one example:

https://twitter.com/Weed1_ch (mostly retweets, tweets are usually quote tweets with one word like "Xinjiang?" attached)

When this account actually comments, it barely makes sense:

https://twitter.com/Weed1_ch/status/1393091998589071360

And this strange Palestinian liberation + Uyghur genocide denial is hallmark of China (who has to straddle both positions due to the geopolitics of opposing the US).

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by max_hammer on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:31PM (#27186527)
Did you just compared treatment of Uyghurs in China with Kashmiri/Muslims in India ?

Last I checked Indian govt is not holding minority in reeducation camps or removing every trace of cultural heritage.

Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by heraclius on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:42PM (#27186665)
One can note certain rhetorical similarities without holding that in every aspect China and India are doing the same thing.
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by max_hammer on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:32PM (#27188079)
What is India doing ?
Re:China increases spending 500% to influence America by president on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:10PM (#27187839)
Chinese propaganda is the reason the US and all other countries adopted the lockdown despite there never being any precedent or literature prior to COV19. Chinese propaganda is also the reason why nobody knows about this. More power to them if the US and other western nations aren't able to deflect it.