News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by hd4 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:14PM (#27145348)
The media tends to be extremely trigger-happy to blame a correction or dip in crypto on a single event like Tesla not accepting BTC while it's just as likely that this is an effect of the wider market correction that's taking place after the inflation/CPI news this week.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by throwaway5752 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:21PM (#27145438)
This was from Musk's announcement as can be plainly seen from

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&geo=...

and https://www.coindesk.com/price/bitcoin

At 3pm PT on 5/12, Bitcoin was at $54.6k USD. Musk tweeted https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1392602041025843203 at 3:06pm. Two hours later, BTC was at $47.7k. One cannot blame the media on this, and it's not the result of macroeconomic news.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by lhorie on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:35PM (#27145599)
DOGE's drop over the weekend also more or less coincided w/ Musk's appearance on SNL (where he called it a "hustle"). If you recall, the previous rise in BTC also followed closely on the tails of the news that Tesla was getting into BTC.

Kinda insane that a single guy can make almost the entirety of the crypto market swing 10-20% every time they mention crypto.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by colechristensen on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:39PM (#27145650)
It’s almost like crypto has very little actual value outside of speculation...
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by aaronharder on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:49PM (#27145788)
...and so, teaching us rubes that lesson was Elon's intended 3D chess move all along?
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by the_local_host on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:40PM (#27147155)
I think Musk just thought it would be funny to accept BTC, and didn't give any thought to the environmental concerns around BTC.

Eventually he either realized or had it pointed out that the environmental controversy would be problematic for an electric vehicle company.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by kordlessagain on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:47PM (#27145753)
There is yet a killer use case, but AI is coming so just hang on a hot minute. Well be above 100k in six months. Machine learning APIs and Lighting payments are a match made in heaven.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by paxys on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:02PM (#27145974)
You just strung together some meaningless words.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by amusedcyclist on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:48PM (#27147917)
I hope its satire
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by chanc3e on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:11PM (#27146777)
I'll bite. What do you mean?

Any Mathcoin (or any trade) is an exchange based on energy spent (not including Mathcoins insane transaction cost). It's an abstraction from someone mining for materiel from the ground and trading. An energy cost is involved.

What's the killer use case? I can just as easily purchase wine, art, or goods which appreciate and will indefinitely hold a non zero value, even if civilisation comes to a halt, someone wealthier than me will want to get drunk.

If the use case is a fungible, I'm good. If I want to do illegal stuff, I can just as easily launder those goods the same way.

p.s. if you buy expensive wine in restaurants, thanks.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by imtringued on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:46AM (#27152513)
>There is yet a killer use case, but AI is coming so just hang on a hot minute.

Are you saying AGIs will earn a living by operating a cryptocurrency mine?

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by ASalazarMX on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:53PM (#27145833)
How does this even work? Do people hear him saying "Dogecoin is a hustle" and immediately start selling their dogecoins? Where do they get buyers on-demand?
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by lhorie on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:11PM (#27146086)
Sort of. Among DOGE speculators, people were saying that the coin might start to be seen as more "serious" (read: track BTC swings more closely) if it reached $1. It was trading at around $0.70. Then Musk came out on national TV and pretty much took a hard "lol DOGE is just a meme" position.

A lot of people were already astronomically up on their DOGE holdings; having its biggest advocate in recent memory (recall Musk crowned himself "Dogefather") basically dismiss any hint that it might be a "serious" coin amounted to a signal that $0.70 was peak DOGE (IMHO).

Given that this latest quip from Musk is explained as being related to concerns about BTC's power consumption problems, I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the near future pumping another altcoin that advertises as having a power efficient network like NANO.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by rchaud on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:36PM (#27147103)
That's what happens when the blind are leading the blind.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by paulpauper on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:53PM (#27145830)
yes the cause and effect doesnot get any more obvious than that
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by uncomputation on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:29PM (#27145541)
If the market of crypto was less of a bull run, I’d be inclined to agree, but a lot of the people in it right now are driven entirely by pumpers/peddlers (Anthony Pompliano, Michael Saylor, David Gokhshtein, etc.), Elon Musk tweets, and speculation/wanting to strike it rich. I think when the market is this speculative, it’s fair to blame a downturn on one event (with a pretty close timestamped correlation - you can see BTC tumble after Elon’s tweet and DOGE after he called it a “hustle” on SNL).
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by gradys on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:20PM (#27145429)
You'd think an intrinsically deflationary asset like Bitcoin would move differently in the face of USD inflation. Any explanation for why this might be?
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by whitepaint on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:43PM (#27145702)
That is just a ridiculous statement. If you want a hedge against inflation you'd buy something like shares of McDonald's (people will keep eating burgers), gold and other commodities, things that people need.

No one actually needs Bitcoin. If Bitcoin disappeared right now, who would lose besides the people who hold Bitcoin? No one. If you want to circumvent the banks there are other ways to do so and very easily so.

It's the biggest speculative bubbles of all time. And at the same time I believe it's a very important innovation by the way (solving the double-spending problem, or more precisely, making it good enough).

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by gradys on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:46PM (#27145748)
What is ridiculous exactly? That it's deflationary? Or the intuition that it should rise in the face of USD inflation (all else equal)?
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by whitepaint on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:49PM (#27145783)
That it should rise because of USD inflation.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by chanc3e on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:21PM (#27146901)
Well put. The fundamentals are: pretty much everything in this world has a known fiat currency value.

The difference with BitCoin is that you can't go to a farmer and buy his goods, or pick up a used car, go to an auction, or take a wedge of greenbacks and disappear.

Until that becomes a ready reality, BitCoin is separate from actual trade, and completely vulnerable to speculation.

Currencies are a shared dream, stop believing and they Tinkerbell. That said, a BitCoin does have a definitive value, and won't go away. But it's certainly not $50k.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by imtringued on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:17AM (#27152679)
Exactly, this misconception is being repeated everywhere. It often goes up with inflation, not because of it. An asset with shrinking circulating supply will go up in price. It's self reinforcing because hoarding reduces the circulating supply. This is deflation and it's self reinforcing nature is why it is considered bad in economics.

This happens completely independently of USD inflation. If USD inflation goes up then Bitcoin may go up by the same amount. However, inflation may affect hoarding instincts in either direction, which can wipe out the influence of inflation on the price of Bitcoin.

For example, people may liquidate Bitcoin to buy commodities that are going up in price. The gasoline pipeline incident causes a shortage of gasoline, people start hoarding gasoline because it goes up much faster than the CPI average but Bitcoin itself can only protect against the CPI because Bitcoin holders want to buy things other than gasoline. If you are a consumer that needs nothing except gasoline then you would believe your Bitcoin are worth "CPI Bitcoin price" * (1+gasoline inflation rate). E.g. 25% gasoline inflation means it is worth 25% more than market rate, because you need 25% extra just to stay where you are.

The obvious problem is that there are some goods that went down in price. Assuming 20% deflation, someone else is willing to accept 20% dollars less for his Bitcoin. The average of both is 5%, therefore the "CPI Bitcoin price" would go up 5%. However, since the gasoline guy wants the 25% gains, it makes more sense to liquidate Bitcoin and buy gasoline directly but the deflation guy remains, which paradoxically drags the price of Bitcoin below inflation because it no longer tracks CPI but rather the CPI without the things that went up.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by anxrn on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:02PM (#27145962)
Why do people need gold?
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by whitepaint on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:07PM (#27146036)
https://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml

And now, please reciprocate, why do people need Bitcoin? If Bitcoin disappeared right now, what would anyone (besides people who are holding it) be losing?

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by Siira on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:06PM (#27148080)
Those uses can not sustain its price.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by rjknight on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:26PM (#27145492)
Inflation figures are a leading indicator of US monetary policy. All other things being equal, higher inflation readings now means relatively tighter US monetary policy later on.

Yes, the Fed has committed to allowing some >2% inflation to make up for past <2% inflation, but it's still the case that policy might tighten one day, and higher inflation now still brings that day closer than it would have been with lower inflation.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by imtringued on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:39AM (#27152788)
Yes, it's true, but persistent inflation requires persistent supply problems. I don't know anything about the gasoline pipeline but if they can't get it to work within a year it is going to cause persistent inflation. If they can get it fixed, gasoline inflation will go away. The Fed is betting that these incidents will resolve themselves, which is why raising rates may not be the best course of action.

It's the same thing with Turkey, Argentina, Zimbabwe etc. They suffered from poor farm yields. Turkey needs more investment into agriculture chemical companies, Argentina suffered a drought in 2018, Zimbabwe had land repossession but financial problems and lack of education prevent the new owners from farming on the land they acquired for free.

If Turkey can do enough investments it can solve its agriculture problems. If Argentina can diversify away from agriculture it will be less prone to droughts. If Zimbabwe supports farmers it can become self sufficient again. These are examples of persistent shortages, something fundamental broke there and the only way this can be fixed is by raising interest rates, crashing hard and then reallocating the economy to the things that are actually important.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by mateuszf on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:11PM (#27146085)
> You'd think an intrinsically deflationary asset like Bitcoin would move differently in the face of USD inflation. Any explanation for why this might be?

I guess because right now a big percentage of bitcoin price comes from speculation and not from people realizing its deflationary potential. Which probably will change in future.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by SamReidHughes on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:27PM (#27145509)
Maybe people are selling it to buy cheap stocks.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by imtringued on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:37AM (#27152777)
Commodities are going up, because they are inflation hedges.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by paulpauper on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:56PM (#27145878)
bitcoin, like gold, is only an effective hedge against a currency that is falling relative to the US dollar. If you have dollar-denominated assets , such as stocks, there is no need for Bitcoin to hedge inflation.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by lvs on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:25PM (#27145477)
Because it's backed by the full faith and credit of absolute void.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by imtringued on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:46AM (#27152841)
Technically it is backed by guns, guns that convince other nations to trade in USD and guns that convince US citizens to pay taxes so that the guns are pointed at those who don't pay them.

The other factor is that the US has adopted the USD. The actual reason (e.g. guns) doesn't matter, it only matters that the decision has been made. You can buy things in the US with USD. Therefore the value of the USD is tied to how much stuff a dollar buys you.

The size of the Bitcoin economy is quite small. There are not many things whose price is denominated in Bitcoin, most shops just convert from the dollar price to Bitcoin, which means there is barely any price stickiness that keeps the value of Bitcoin stable. If anything it supports the instability of the exchange rate.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by dboreham on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:36PM (#27145609)
/dev/null
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by BitwiseFool on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:44PM (#27145715)
Are you talking about the Dollar?
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by selectodude on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:47PM (#27145759)
Gotta hold dollars to pay US taxes. Don't need to hold Bitcoin to do anything at all.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by agency on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:22PM (#27145445)
It literally started dropping the minute the tweet came out...
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by bhay on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:29PM (#27145536)
Indeed it did. I saw the tweet within a minute of it being posted and watched the crash happen live on TradingView.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by acchow on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:17PM (#27146849)
Tesla's announcement was about the environmental impact of bitcoin. Proof of work coins are down precipitously whereas the main proof of stake coin (Cardano) is up significantly. The timing with the announcement is more than just "macroeconomic effects".
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by kvz on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:12PM (#27147527)
I wouldn’t be surprised if they bought Cardano’s ADA ahead of this. It’s the biggest crypto that already implemented proof of stake, so the most likely place anyone seeking refuge may move value to, increasing its price dramatically. This could make it a dump & pump, if that makes sense. Dump BTC with a claim that pumps ADA.
Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by dragontamer on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:57PM (#27145891)
If the dollar is inflating away, you'd want to sell dollars and buy BTC and otherwise run away from the dollar.

The inflation argument makes no sense. Inflation would cause BTC to go up in value. Something else is causing BTC to drop in value.

Personally, I think this has more to do with Vitalik's $Billion donation to charity. What do you think would happen when a whale decides to sell $1-Billion worth of various cryptocoins? I bet they're liquidating all of those various cryptocoins into BTC, and then using the large BTC-exchanges to convert it into fiat.

All this Tesla stuff seems like a red-herring to me.

Re:$365B wiped off cryptocurrency market after Tesla stops a... by danhak on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:27PM (#27145503)
There was a massive spike downward literally the minute Musk sent the tweet.

When the price is stable for hours then collapses after an event, you can pretty safely infer the correlation.