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Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by lolinder on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:18PM (#26908835)
Egypt definitely has fault here, but the company that owns the ship could have gotten the ship out of there if they cared about him at all. Yes, it might have been expensive, but I would expect a US based company to have rescued him within weeks of this situation starting, not years.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by nickff on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:34PM (#26908960)
The article says the parent company is in financial difficulties, and the individual in question was basically being held for ransom (along with the ship). Depending on the ordering of debts (for the company), they may not have been able to compensate the Egyptians.

All of that being said, I agree an American company likely would have had this sorted out faster, because the USA tends to deal with bankruptcies and the like very quickly.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by worldsayshi on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:50PM (#26909081)
Seems to me that corporations owning ships having financial difficulties would be a natural consequence of outsourcing behaviour. You want to outsource risk and responsibilities. So the big companies get rid of their ships and hire small companies on the edge of profitability.

I assume it's not always the most sound way to do business but some should get away with it.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by andromeduck on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:57PM (#26909563)
Name me a country where logistics orgs never run out of money or resources.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by dredmorbius on Friday April 23, 2021 @03:26PM (#26918247)
Let's invert that.

Let's assume that logistics organisations consistently run out of resources. That this is a probabalistic outcome of operations. The BBC article even gives us a sense of the baseline risk, about 250 cases presently, and 85 new ones reported in 2020 (meaning that typical durations exceed a year in length).

In that case, how do you address the inevitable circumstance without creating a human rights abuse crisis, presuming sufficient consideration and political will exists for this to occur?

Elsewhere in the thread, surity bonds are mentioned. That is, a ship on entering a port or other navigational / marine facility, places a bond in which some large and far more solvent entity assures that compensation where due is paid.

International treaties (to which major transit points such as canals might be obligated to join) are another option.

An international response organisation with the ability to both intervene and impose additional sanctions on any entities which impose such sailor-arrest.

Keep in mind that the 2020 Beruit ANFO explosion occurred after a not-dissimilar situation, in which a ship was deemed unseaworthy and its cargo seized and held under exceptionally (and ultimately massively fatal and damaging) conditions, in part because its ownership and questions over compensation were not met.

(There were quite admittedly other concerns and failures, including by the Beruit port authority and judiciary, but the ownership and payment aspects touched on most of these. Hazardous cargo and storage have been at the heart of several other recent major disasters, including in Tianjin, China.)

Whilst "flag of convenience" regulations make race-to-the-bottom standards in shipping regulation common, obligations to maintain surity bonds or similar instruments of substantial duration (e.g., a year or more) to access major ports, canals, fueling depots, and the like, could help ensure compliance.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by labster on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:17PM (#26910037)
The United Federation of Planets doesn’t even use money, and it’s post-scarcity so they don’t run out of resources.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by dragonwriter on Friday April 23, 2021 @02:27AM (#26911554)
> The United Federation of Planets doesn’t even use money

Well, they occasionally say they don’t (and Roddenberry said they don’t), but they actually do (or discussing the fact that they do) in every single one of the series, and several of the movies.

> and it’s post-scarcity so they don’t run out of resources.

They do run into resource limits.

Also, the UFP is, you known, fiction, and not even haed science fiction (or even particularly internally consistent fiction.)

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by zoshi on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:48PM (#26910204)
Ships, planets, space, etc. are scarce and owned by various actors. The Federation is an interplanetary government made of sovereign member states, many of which do trade and use money. Even without the use of trade, there must be systems for determining who controls what.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by robotbikes on Thursday April 22, 2021 @10:07PM (#26910309)
This discussion makes me wish that I had borrowed the book Trekonomics from my friend when he offered to loan it to me. - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekonomics
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by imagineerschool on Thursday April 22, 2021 @10:30PM (#26910417)
They run out of resources all the time and it drives many plots!
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by drdeca on Friday April 23, 2021 @01:14AM (#26911194)
fictitious evidence isn't.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by edoceo on Thursday April 22, 2021 @10:20PM (#26910368)
replicators tho. makes a huge difference.

we're headed away from UFP and more towards DOOP.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by dexterous on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:46PM (#26910778)
I had a feeling someone was eventually going to pull this one out. :)
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by refurb on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:48PM (#26910789)
What’s the option if you don’t outsource? Every company who wants to ship something by sea needs to purchase and boat and man a crew?
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by pyuser583 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @10:59PM (#26910568)
How? I mean there are shady American transport firms.

This isn’t the result of big massive conglomerates. It’s mom and pop small firms.

People to small and broke to sue.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by Hnrobert42 on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:19AM (#26910951)
The mom and pops are the puppets of large companies. Large companies transfer risk and plausible deniability to small companies all the time.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by leetcrew on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:18PM (#26910650)
mv aman is a 100m ship. any company owning that is kinda stretching the term "mom and pop".
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by rfrey on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:15PM (#26910641)
Most of these ships are owned by single vessel companies, much like power plants. This allows the massive shipping companies to walk away from individual vessels.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by account42 on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:33AM (#26912441)
> are owned by single vessel companies

This legal fiction is only true as long as it is allowed to be. Egypt can see who was operating and using the ship and block their other ships until they fix the issue - they don't need to hold a scapegoat hostage for years.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by ornornor on Friday April 23, 2021 @01:13AM (#26911189)
There is also back channeling. I also believe that if the shipping company and the sailor were from a different country (not necessarily the US but not failed states either), he would have gone home a long time ago.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by fallingknife on Thursday April 22, 2021 @08:55PM (#26909904)
Given the excessive "compensation" demand that Egypt is making for the ship that blocked the canal, I'm going to assume the fault lies with Egypt.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by estaseuropano on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:10AM (#26910898)
No, the ship owner abandoned their ship and Egypt wants the trashing to be paid. That's not their fault. The methods to get there are not ideal but given the matroshka method of hiding responsibility I don't see what else they could have done.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by throwaway2037 on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:07AM (#26910882)
Let's get more specific. What is reasonable compensation that should Egypt demand?
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by fallingknife on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:28AM (#26910999)
The canal was blocked for 6 days and revenue is $15 million per day, so that's $90 million. But many of the ships that were held up eventually transited anyway, so $90 million is an absolute upper bound. Then there is the cost of the operation to free the ship, which I don't know. But Egypt is asking for $1 billion, so the rescue operation would have had to cost at minimum $900 million for the price to be justified. And I know it didn't cost $900 million, because if split evenly over 6 days that would be $150 million per day, which would be > 50% of Egypt's entire government spending over the time period. So I can say with confidence that the rescue was at least an order of magnitude less than that, so another $90 million (and that's still a massive over estimate).

So absolute upper bound for losses is $180 million. If I were making odds I would guess that only 1/3 of the ships diverted around Africa, so $30 million, and that the rescue cost another $15 million, so over/under $45 million.

And that's without even bringing up that there was a canal pilot on the ship at the time who may share some portion of the responsibility for the accident. So, yeah, it's extortion.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Friday April 23, 2021 @01:27AM (#26911272)
Egypt is likely using treble damages in their calculation.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by vasco on Friday April 23, 2021 @01:00AM (#26911119)
A pilot from the canal was on board, how is it not their fault? (Zero compensation)
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by throwaway2037 on Friday April 23, 2021 @02:27AM (#26911556)
I don't know the rules of the canal, but I highly doubt this scenario. The Egyptian gov't basically has a monopoly and can charge anything they want and write any rules they want. Of course, ships are free to circumvent Africa (around the Cape of Good Hope) if they disagree.

More likely: Ships are required by rules to have an Egyptian pilot on-board during the passage, and there is limited legal liability for ordinary operating circumstances. That said, if an Egyptian pilot was found grossly negligent of their duties, then they would be liable. However, in most legal systems, this is an exceptionally high bar. And, I assume if you pass the canal, you subject yourself to the Egyptian court system. (Read about the big cruise ship that ran aground in Italy. That story reads like text book gross negligence!)

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by krisoft on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:32AM (#26912438)
Per the Suez Canal Authority - Rules of Navigation Article 4, section 7 (page 7):

“(7) Owners, mobilizers, charterers and/or operators bind themselves responsible for any mistakes resulting from pilot’s advice or arrise by SCA personnel.”

https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/Navigation/Pages/Ruleso...

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by vkou on Friday April 23, 2021 @02:43AM (#26911691)
The pilot is supposed to steer the ship, but the captain is ultimately responsible for it.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by malandrew on Friday April 23, 2021 @01:52AM (#26911377)
Egypt is using the violation of human rights as extortion here. I’m sorry, I’m this is in no way the fault of the shippers. A fair discussion is two entities sitting at the table and negotiating. Not two sitting at the table with one being cruel to the other that the other might care about. That’s pure extortion.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by lolinder on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:25AM (#26914504)
If a ship were straight-up captured by pirates and the crew held for ransom, I would still expect the company that sent the crew out to do everything in its power to bring them home. If said company simply shrugged and said "we tried to come up with the ransom money, but couldn't", I would consider that behavior unethical.

The same applies here: yes, Egypt is corrupt. Yes, this is a massive violation of human rights. But the company took on a moral responsibility when it sent out that crew. We can't excuse someone from their ethical duty simply because other people neglect theirs. Ethics is meaningless if it stops applying as soon as there's corruption outside.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by efitz on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:20AM (#26915637)
There’s a time honored solution for this - bond. You’re not allowed in port until you post a bond that would cover whatever - crew repatriation, port fees, whatever. This could be formalized, eg through a holding company (Lloyds?) that the port could verify the bond with, etc. I don’t have any knowledge of the shipping industry but from hearing this and other stories it sounds like a cluster f*k.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by Breza on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:54AM (#26916026)
That makes sense. If I want somebody to change my locks or cut down a tree at my house, they need to post a bond first.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by Breza on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:53AM (#26916020)
Plus the United States probably would have sent a diplomat as soon as the press found out what was happening.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by LorenPechtel on Saturday April 24, 2021 @12:02PM (#26925912)
They didn't have money they were *allowed* to spend. The problem lies with the courts who were more interested in protecting the creditors than the crew.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by zp33 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:59PM (#26910846)
the article says it's a middle eastern company that owns the ship: Tylos Shipping and Marine Service
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by FpUser on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:32PM (#26909393)
Depends on what company. One headed by people like Ross Perot ( RIP ) definitely will. The other that runs private jail would most likely let people expire if it makes them extra dollar.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by munk-a on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:39PM (#26909449)
It reminds me of the court case that was controversial when Gorsuch was confirmed involving a trucker - "TransAm Trucking v. Dept. of Labour" in particular. It's another case where company property is valued over individuals lives - the case itself hinged on the fact that the employee was free to leave the site on foot but that it was illegal for him to use the tractor half of the truck owned by the employer to reach safety without authorization from the employer. Essentially the ruling of that case leads to the learned lesson that all truck drivers should strap private motorcycles to the sides of their trucks - doing otherwise is irresponsible.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by girvo on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:07PM (#26909968)
I must be reading it backwards, but wasn't the order eventually upheld that the employee be reinstated? Gorsuch dissented, but he wasn't the one making the ruling. At least thats what the article I just read on it said, but I could be wrong -- it's early in the morning and I only just had my coffee!

> TransAm appealed, but in a 2-to-1 decision, a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals affirmed the Board’s reinstatement order (TransAm Trucking v. Department of Labor, 2016). Judge Neil Gorsuch dissented.

https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/477996

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by beaconstudios on Thursday April 22, 2021 @08:16PM (#26909658)
in case anyone else wants to know the details of this case:

https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/477996

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by dahfizz on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:05PM (#26909961)
Am I misunderstanding something? The courts ruled in the truckers favor. Besides, I'm not sure a motorcycle would have saved him from the extreme cold.