News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
[dead]
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by steerablesafe on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:13AM (#26831032)
Interviewing with a poor financial situation in the background can be indeed suboptimal, but I think for a different reason. You don't have leverage in negotiation and you are most probably desperate, which is hard to hide. Overall this comes trough as lack of confidence and undermines the interview.

To turn this into an advice for people interviewing without a safety net: get a safety net. It can be a job that is easy to get, a rent that is easy to pay, just make sure that you can live by that situation indefinitely. You need to leap from there. You need to be able to turn down job offers to be able to negotiate.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by djellybeans on Friday April 16, 2021 @10:58PM (#26841260)
I have a safety net, it's in the form of subsidized housing where I don't have to pay anything for rent as long as I don't earn an income, and utility and food are paid by one of my relatives through an allowance. Having said that, I'd be careful how you treat these situations because it's easy to fall into a loop of complacency.

With nothing to light a fire under your butt, you have to sometimes create your own crises because simply setting deadlines when you don't need to pay for anything doesn't have any real stakes. This is coming from personal experience- I've been constantly job hunting since 2015 with no FT offers in software development, despite having 8 years experience from 2007-14. Job hunting now just feels like going through the motions and I'm burned out from so much interview practicing.

I have the potential to turn down offers because of my situation of not needing to pay for almost anything, but I can only take advantage of that if I get offers to begin with. Whatever approaches I took in the early 2010's to get work aren't effective anymore and I'm still in the process of discovering what will work for me today.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by lumost on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:45PM (#26838882)
> "live by that situation indefinitely"

It's an unfortunate reality that it's become impractical to match this advice in all circumstances. When I was young I found that

a) I had to live within an hours drive of a city with jobs to get jobs in that city b) There were 1/100th to 1/1000th the number of jobs available if I stayed with my family. c) Minimum rent + student loan payments + heating bills exceeded what an "easy" job could cover.

I ended up not paying the student loan debts for about a year and recking my credit, but I was ultimately able to get a job. People with mortgages, families, or other fixed expenses can likewise not stay unemployed forever in the modern world.

As an experienced hire, if you take a big down-level for expedience employers will question it in the future.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by jart on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:58AM (#26831365)
If you're broke and don't have kids to feed, hit the road and go backpacking or something. No one cares how much money you have. What people care about is that you have an interesting story and are resourceful enough to make the best of any situation. Because one day you're going to get paged at 3am where all the technology is crumbling around you and you're the only one who can save it, and what's going to make you succeed at that moment is your lived experiences until that point saving yourself.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by brailsafe on Friday April 16, 2021 @05:59AM (#26831843)
This seems a bit specious. I've done things along this line, and it was great, but I had some support infrastructure and a tiny bit of money to actually pay for shit. You're going to need to also build the ability to support yourself for realsies (financially) as well when you return or during, otherwise you're just another idiot who flew to Thailand with $0 in the hopes random ppl will fund your vacation. With some savings, and some ability to work jobs that you'd find anywhere, then ya go make what you can of it, but this isn't that case... yet
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by jart on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:04PM (#26837798)
Not a thought that would have crossed my mind. My mental model was more along the lines of Paul Erdős showing up on famous mathematicians doorsteps asking for a place to live. I don't think anyone accused him of being some loafer trying to hitch a free ride. I mean if you backpack and people don't even want you around for free then how on earth are you ever going to get that faang cash money.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by brailsafe on Friday April 16, 2021 @08:20PM (#26840491)
I feel like we might just have different ideas of backpacking. People wouldn't want you around for free if you are net negative, but if you're suggesting what is basically an unpaid internship for strangers, then I just didn't interpret backpacking to mean that.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by jart on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:44AM (#26841635)
I'm suggesting that, if you're unemployed, you can literally do anything. With or without money you have the power to change the world. So what you choose to do with that freedom says something about who you are as a person.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by irscott on Friday April 16, 2021 @07:58AM (#26832786)
I always talk about my time traveling and riding trains and going to antarctica in interviews. Most of the time it breaks up the monotonous interview process and allows me to stand out in the crowd.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by pontifier on Friday April 16, 2021 @08:43PM (#26840631)
Anyone with time travel experience should have no problem getting a job :)
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by Shugarl on Friday April 16, 2021 @02:37AM (#26830368)
He just spent a year without any steady source of income, should't his saving run out at one point ?
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by midasuni on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:00AM (#26830925)
You should have 40 years of expenses saved in an emergency fund before you start spending a penny on anything /s
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by sgt101 on Friday April 16, 2021 @07:15AM (#26832447)
40 years is quite a risk - 120 is far better. And saving this is easier than you think, if you commit to not eating and living outside. Importantly do what you are told, and remember your inadequacy!
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by ehnto on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:04AM (#26830520)
What jobs inquire about your financial history? That seems a little dystopian. Can't get a handle on your finances because you don't have a steady job, better not give them a steady job!
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by devoutsalsa on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:47AM (#26830824)
I was massively broke for a long time, and I can speak to my experience in the USA. I was over 200K USD in debt at one point. [1] I was behind on everything, and then declared bankruptcy. The only time I would have needed to worry about it was if I wanted to get a securities license (e.g. become a financial advisor), or if I needed a security clearance (e.g. work on top secret project). The real risk I faced was the threat of making rent & feeding myself.

Just 5 years ago I was making 6000 USD per month and with almost 250K in debt, and ~50% of my income going to debt payments. Now I’ll be debt free in a couple months, and I have 12 months of savings in the bank & a rapidly growing retirement account! It’s super nice to feel this way, and it’s only been possible with a lot of hard work and even more luck.

[1] I lived way beyond my means, overestimated the value of my expensive education, and had an expensive bicycle accident.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by oblio on Friday April 16, 2021 @10:25AM (#26834263)
This sounds so sad:

> and had an expensive bicycle accident.

I mean, the health aspect was probably bad, but the financial implication is even worse :-(

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by devoutsalsa on Friday April 16, 2021 @10:28AM (#26834306)
It was a period of many depressing thoughts for sure. I wouldn't wish that struggle on anyone.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by lostlogin on Friday April 16, 2021 @06:05AM (#26831882)
> Just 5 years ago I was making 6000 USD per month and with almost 250K in debt, and ~50%

I really don’t know what it’s like in other places, but the first few years of a mortgage are like this, but with a larger debt. It’s grim.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by freeone3000 on Friday April 16, 2021 @09:23AM (#26833551)
Except your mortgage is secured by an asset, the sale of which removes most, or all, of the debt. It's a desperate option, but it's there, no bankruptcy needed. Medical debt and unsecured debt have no such option -- and student loans can't be discharged even in bankruptcy. It's not the same situation.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by hashkb on Friday April 16, 2021 @08:31AM (#26833058)
Except at the end you own a house and maybe some land. Usually people with a mortgage they planned for don't describe themselves this way.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by devoutsalsa on Friday April 16, 2021 @09:02AM (#26833342)
Yeah, that does sound hard. I’ve never had a mortgage myself, but the thought of owing tons of money on an underwater mortgage is not appealing is not appealing.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by freeone3000 on Friday April 16, 2021 @09:24AM (#26833561)
It beats paying rent. If at the end of my mortgage payments, if my house was worth half of what it was today, and my rent had never increased, I'd come out ahead. And both of the above are incredibly unlikely.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by bhandziuk on Friday April 16, 2021 @11:09AM (#26834817)
Owing money on a mortgage does not mean it's underwater.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by alistairSH on Friday April 16, 2021 @08:47AM (#26833197)
What jobs inquire about your financial history?

In the US, it would be both legal and common for federal government jobs (that require any sort of security clearance). Banking & finance (investment/securities & retail banking).And some jobs on the periphery of banking/finance, where handling PII related to finances is common.

I'm sure there are other places that run credit checks, just because they can (it is the US after all, we're king of treating employees like we're in a dystopian movie). But, there shouldn't really be a need.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by austincheney on Friday April 16, 2021 @06:49AM (#26832224)
In my experience only a federal security clearance, which could result in the loss of a career opportunity.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by hellbannedguy on Friday April 16, 2021 @08:26AM (#26833007)
In California, potential employers are not suspose to look at your credit score when hiring.

(This might have changed. Too disenfranchied to even look it up.)

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by CodesInChaos on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:40AM (#26831239)
Financial stability is essential for getting clearance, which I assume would be required for several of the mentioned employers.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by jeltz on Friday April 16, 2021 @09:03AM (#26833358)
Only jobs which require security clearance and jobs where you handle s lot of money as far as I know. So for a software developer there are plenty of opportunities where they won't check your personal finances.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by airza on Friday April 16, 2021 @05:53PM (#26839464)
The NSA and CIA require this for top secret clearances, the reasoning being that people in a lot of debt are easier to blackmail or otherwise bribe.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by clifdweller on Friday April 16, 2021 @05:39PM (#26839364)
One of the listed companies CIA will do a background check including finances or any company that requires a security clearance doesn't want a person to have large debt. Also financial companies/insurance often look into finances as some states require employees of those companies to not hold debt over a certain amount
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by thesuitonym on Friday April 16, 2021 @12:51PM (#26836257)
Even if an interviewer doesn't ask about your finances, it can be pretty clear if you're on the very low end. A person living hand-to-mouth may not be able to afford nice clothes (I remember a time when those $99 suit deals were something I had to plan ahead for!), and what nice clothes they have may be worn out. In most of the US, you'll be showing up to your interview in a car because there's no public transit. Is that car an old beater? That says something.

But mostly it's clothes. If you're having a hard time financially, the interview clothes you have (if any) will likely fit poorly, be worn out, poorly constructed, or all three.

By the way: For anyone who finds themselves in this situation, check out local food banks, churches, and your local DoL office. These groups will typically either have an interview clothing program, or will know of one. Nearly every city in the US--even the small ones--will have some kind of charity like this. If you're having trouble dressing or getting rides for interviews, reach out. It never hurts to ask.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by nsonha on Friday April 16, 2021 @10:52PM (#26841236)
Are you actually a hiring manager who thinks like this or you just speculate? I've always thought no one gaves a shit about this kind of think in software dev and have not been proven wrong, especially now with remote interview becoming the norm. Quality of microphone/connection is more like the kind of thing that matters.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by atoav on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:13AM (#26830576)
So your advice is "just stop being poor"?
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by jart on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:42AM (#26831257)
It's a question of living within your means. A guy who's fortunate enough to have an engineering job at EA and IBM shouldn't be having personal financial problems, if we consider that many of the immigrants who make his food live comfortably enough to afford sending half their income back to old country. There's a way to live responsibly in any situation and if you can't then you have room for improvement.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by zelon88 on Friday April 16, 2021 @09:05AM (#26833373)
Comfortable?

I remember 15 years ago working in fast food. Many, many of the employees do exactly this. But it isn't comfortable. I worked with a brother-sister pair from Brazil. They lived together, worked two jobs each 70 hours per week (Dunkin Donuts, McDs, and a hotel between the two of them), lived in a shit apartment with no cable, and still only sent a couple hundred bucks back to Brazil every month. The sister was around 50 years old.

With that money their family was able to afford a house in Brazil.

You sound very presumptuous. I challenge you to find someone you're describing who works in America to support overseas family and ask them how "comfortable" their living situation is.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by konart on Friday April 16, 2021 @05:50AM (#26831782)
>It's a question of living within your means. A guy who's fortunate enough to have an engineering job at EA and IBM

First of all - you are almost never 'fortunate'. Jobs offers do not fall from the sky usually.

Second - you many live well within your means and then have a car accident, or an ill relative, or something else that will make you into piss poor indebted fella real quick.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by djellybeans on Friday April 16, 2021 @11:10PM (#26841307)
(Additionally, QA jobs for game companies are almost never lucrative.)

The core problem is that a median income lifestyle is a relatively unstable state due to unforeseen circumstances like your example. A poor person stays poor (if whatever happens doesn't kill them) which means that poverty is a stable state. A rich person can weather at least a couple disasters, so that makes it a mostly stable state. If you're in the middle, you are in a more unstable position compared to the extremes.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by freddealmeida on Friday April 16, 2021 @07:36AM (#26832616)
Wow. No empathy here at all. The world can go against you for alot of reasons. I went from millions to pauper to millions to pauper. It happens. It depends on your ethical stance. It depends on other people. It depends on what you fear.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by jart on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:39PM (#26838827)
I'm pretty empathetic to people like football players who make millions and go bankrupt because managing money isn't what nature built them to do. They're also not asking to be hedge fund managers. Would you feel comfortable having your high-level security managed by someone who's living hand to mouth and resents us for not paying him more?
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by corobo on Friday April 16, 2021 @07:45AM (#26832684)
Please also consider that not everyone is neurotypical. I'm of course not diagnosing OP but things like ADHD make it a hell of a time trying to manage personal finances on top of the rest of your life.

If everything was just easy we'd all just do it.

Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by jart on Friday April 16, 2021 @05:15PM (#26839157)
Personal finances don't need to be managed. You put the money in something like Vanguard and get back to coding. However if you love money and relish the social status that spending it commands, then you might be struggling with neurotypicality.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by corobo on Friday April 16, 2021 @06:52PM (#26839916)
Well I mean there's groceries and rent and bills and whatnot too, I don't think vanguard handles that for you
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by ayyy on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:33AM (#26830713)
I know you're being sarcastic, but that sort of is the whole game, isn't it?
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by yoz-y on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:51AM (#26830848)
TF? Aiming for large companies can be actually helpful in this case because they will often shell out money for your relocation and may even help with housing before your first few salaries kick in.
Re:Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job? by hooande on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:10AM (#26830555)
ok, so what does he do? he asked for advice. if you don't have any, no need to say anything that isn't constructive.

obviously he won't be able to solve his financial problems in any way without a job. if your assessment is "well he's screwed for the rest of his life" then a) I think you're wrong b) you can keep that to yourself