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Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by monocasa on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:23PM (#26797712)
This makes you wonder if we might see a resurgence in old school control systems without processors, and def no networks.

The Manhattan project was able uranium purified to get a bomb working without PLCs and networks.

All else being equal it's more expensive, but not compared to being unable to keep your network safe from attack. You need to reconfigure the line? Send eight techs down one by one to set new parameters and octople check the first tech's work.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by dragontamer on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:28PM (#26797787)
> The Manhattan project was able uranium purified to get a bomb working without PLCs and networks.

By enlisting thousands of young women to watch the knobs and dial buttons.

https://outrider.org/nuclear-weapons/articles/women-who-buil...

They didn't even know they were building the bomb. They just had to enter the room, dial knobs back-and-forth for 8-hours/day, and then go home.

Today, that sort of stuff SHOULD be automated. It made sense back then because there weren't computers, but... you really can't just get people to balance knobs 8-hours / day anymore.

-------

EDIT: https://www.energy.gov/articles/five-fast-facts-about-calutr...

Seems like Department of Energy has some historical articles on them too.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by avar on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:33PM (#26797861)
The youth unemployment rate in Iran is ~25%, overall rate is 10%. They issue their own fiat currency, and their GDP per capita is comparable to Thailand and Botswana.

So yes, they can probably afford to have a bunch of people tweak knobs in a factory all day.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by formerly_proven on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:01PM (#26798336)
There are many options that lie between "network-connected grey-import PLCs from the 90s" and "have a human tweak a knob to zero a needle scale".
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by gaius_baltar on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @12:24AM (#26802925)
> So yes, they can probably afford to have a bunch of people tweak knobs in a factory all day.

But what would prevent this system from being compromised?

Seems pretty easy for an adversary to "inject an exploit in these controllers" by paying a few of them to keep the knobs in the wrong position for a bit more time than strictly necessary, or to flip a switch earlier/later than ideal.

Auditing this is seems worse than checking the code for an old-style, non-networked, PLC.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by V-2 on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:52PM (#26798192)
Are you implying that if they were a richer, more prosperous country, then they couldn't afford it? I'm confused
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by setr on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:00PM (#26798324)
If the job market is more saturated, there’s simply fewer people available to do bullshit work, at the necessary bullshit cost. Resources would be naturally allocated to more valuable efforts, and lured by better wages, by the market. As a general rule, the richer the country, the more expensive humans are, and the commodities become cheaper (relative to income)

In the US, I can’t afford a full time maid. In India, I could probably afford 10.

Or more pointedly, in the US you can afford a car far earlier than you can afford a maid. In India, it’s the opposite.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by TedDoesntTalk on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:05PM (#26799308)
I understand your point, but how does minimum wage for unskilled workers factor? For example, in the US you could pay some $8/hour to 500 teenagers to achieve the same net result. No?
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by setr on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @08:36PM (#26801552)
It makes it worse — if the job only makes sense (produces value at least at) $7.50/hr, you simply can’t execute it — even if you had people willing to work at that wage (because no better alternative exists)

An interesting aspect of poorer economy I’ve noted but haven’t seen anyone discuss otherwise is you can live a much better life being poor in India, than you can in the US — the really low income economy is far healthier (the quality of everything degrades continuously). I’m sure it’s not a novel insight, but I don’t know what others would call it.

In the US you pass under the minimum wage bar of value production and you’re immediately in a tent under an LA bridge — with everyone else ranging from $7.99/hr to $0.01/hr. Of course an economy exists to support them anyways, but it’s largely underground, illegal (bypassing safety and regulations, e.g. selling very old cars; selling cigarettes individually) and actively zoned into oblivion

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by bobthepanda on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:14PM (#26800717)
$8/hr gets pretty expensive pretty quick.

It‘s why, for example, middle class households in the US don‘t have live in maids, because rising living standards made that unaffordable at a middle class income level.

[dead]
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by dang on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:32PM (#26798858)
Please don't take HN threads on generic tangents and please don't be a jerk in comments here.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by sbierwagen on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:47PM (#26798106)
None of the 19 countries in the Eurozone issue their own currency. Ecuador, El Salvador, Zumbabwe, and a couple Pacific islands use US dollars.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by Veen on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:50PM (#26798145)
Bulgaria, Croatia, Czechia, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Sweden are EU members with their own currencies. The Eurozone does not encompass the entire EU.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by PartiallyTyped on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:28PM (#26798799)
Denmark has a fixed exchange policy with euro so it shouldn't count.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by sbierwagen on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:56PM (#26798250)
Comment edited.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by Veen on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:57PM (#26798268)
I'd have deleted my correction, but I can't because you replied to it.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by sbierwagen on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:35PM (#26799635)
The workaround I've seen people use is hitting the edit button and replacing the entire comment with a - character.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by pvg on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:41PM (#26799713)
That's not really a workaround, just put the fact that you edited the comment in the original comment. Better yet, add the new info as an edit and leave the original comment text as was so people can follow the conversation
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by sbierwagen on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @03:22PM (#26811812)
I would have done that, if the edit window hadn't closed on my original comment by the time I read his reply.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by cyberscientist on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:49PM (#26798135)
There is also a very deep dissatisfaction towards the government amongst people.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by FredPret on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:08PM (#26798455)
Imagine them hiring dozens of resentful, rebellious teens to watch the dials of their budding nuclear programme. It’s like something from Futurama
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by tablespoon on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:38PM (#26800332)
> Imagine them hiring dozens of resentful, rebellious teens to watch the dials of their budding nuclear programme. It’s like something from Futurama

So the idea might not work for Iran, but it probably would for North Korea.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by zdragnar on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:32PM (#26797847)
Last I had heard, Iran's youth unemployment situation certainly would make that feasible...
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by vokep on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:41PM (#26797997)
>you really can't just get people to balance knobs 8-hours / day anymore

Why not?

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by SilasX on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:00PM (#26798320)
Today, we've automated that with electronic computer chips, which also don't know the significance of what they're doing computations for.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by DyslexicAtheist on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:36PM (#26797913)
such an activity would also be a lot harder to hide today with eyes in space capturing everything in high-res
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by PartiallyTyped on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:31PM (#26798844)
Also, mass tracking through mobile devices. Even if said devices are in faraday cages, it doesn't take a genius to see that something exists in some area when there are many devices going dark and then coming back up again after some hours. It only takes access to cellphone towers and data.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by agumonkey on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:40PM (#26797966)
still impressive secrecy management
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by dragontamer on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:17PM (#26799440)
But still not good enough.

Legend has it that Stalin knew about the American bomb before Truman knew about it. Hiring literally thousands of high-schoolers without much job training has the advantages of being cheap back then, but you don't really know who was or wasn't a Soviet Agent.

Similarly: having literally thousands of modern techs build a bomb manually would only turn the computer-security problem into a human-security problem. Who do you trust? Who do you keep track of?

There's something to be said about trusting fewer people: and checking those few people more vigorously. That simplifies the human-security portion of the puzzle, even if it complicates the computer-security portion.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by agumonkey on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @10:53AM (#26807929)
That's what I was curious about. Indeed the more persons the more leaks potentially, yet it seems that they took care of dilluting knowledge so nobody really knew what was for. I'd love to read about the soviet side of this story.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by grenoire on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:32PM (#26797849)
Not without scheduled Instagram breaks you won't.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by astrea on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:00PM (#26798323)
These are bold words coming from someone browsing HN during work hours (making massive timezone/ work schedule assumptions).
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by anoonmoose on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:07PM (#26798443)
could just be speaking from experience, on their scheduled HN break
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by newsclues on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:53PM (#26798209)
I don’t know, with a good pair of headphones and podcasts, it could be tolerable
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by bombcar on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:28PM (#26797777)
It seems that there's also some lack of defense-in-depth going on - if the centrifuges need power to power down, why isn't that built into each one?

It's interesting that the Manhattan project had to build everything themselves - which if Iran was NOT using off-the-shelf parts and instead was developing everything in-house they'd be less susceptible to certain types of attacks.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by TedDoesntTalk on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:08PM (#26799339)
> and instead was developing everything in-house

This article says they used air-gapped Siemens industrial control systems:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/revealed-how-a-secret-du...

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by hctaw on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:34PM (#26797880)
My understanding is that Iran needs high performance centrifuges to enrich Uranium as they do not have an abundance of the stuff, unlike the Manhattan Project. They were able to pile up 50 tons of uranium and light up a lightbulb while other experiments were carried out in parallel to enrich uranium and synthesize plutonium.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by torginus on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:37PM (#26798924)
I used to work at a small company that manufactured medical equipment. One of the products we made was a pick-and place robot that handled urine samples.

It needed a coordinated 3-axis motor servo motor control, which we initially planned to use PLCs for, however after looking around and seeing the price tag of the stuff that matched our required feature set, we decided to build our own. We were up and running within 2 months, and I can tell you, writing code in C for the control loops is infinitely preferable to whatever monstrosity PLCs can be programmed in. I'd say this is a much more complex scenario than running a single motor at a certain speed depending on some sensor readings.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by marto1 on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:52PM (#26798188)
In a lot of conflicts today the Kalashnikov is the highest tech used in combat so these simple systems are more the rule than the exception.

High tech combat gear with VR and exoskeletons is more of a gun dealer's wet dream(e.g. costs a ton, breaks often) than anything that usually gets deployed.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by akiselev on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:00PM (#26798317)
The Kalashnikov looks low tech because it was designed to be cheap to manufacture but I'd argue the AK is one of the technical milestones in the 20th century on par with the assembly line (as horrible as the effects have been). It's carefully designed to operate reliably despite crappy manufacturing and ammunition tolerances after taking a beating in the field, made using whatever crappy metal is available for the receiver and barrel.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by lovedswain on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:27PM (#26797770)
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by devoutsalsa on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:44PM (#26798057)
This sounds like how the Galactica survived in the 2003 BSG reboot. All of the critical systems (fire control, navigation, life support, etc.) were standalone & not networked. The baddies took out all of the new ships & defense networks with a computer virus, and the old Galactica couldn’t be hacked that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(fictiona...

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by heavenlyblue on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:50PM (#26798156)
What does it even mean to “not be networked” and on a Galactic spaceship?

I can imagine all of those systems need to communicate within their domain somehow, so they need to be connected. You could make a point that they have “not been connected to the internet”, but then it only takes one node to become a bridge between WAN and LAN and you are Pwned.

It’s even worse now because there’s a tendency in software development to discount security this way: “we don’t need to think about security because we have a firewall”.

I don’t think this is a valid scenario.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by monocasa on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:55PM (#26798237)
I always took it to mean fixed purpose control signals rather than sitting on a common bus.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by heavenlyblue on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:08PM (#26798460)
It takes only one buffer overflow within a fixed purpose control signal handler to convert any bus into a general purpose bus.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by monocasa on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:15PM (#26798585)
No buses, only fixed purpose control signals.

It's pretty hard to buffer overflow

  if (read_gpio(Ignition_Enable_Pin)) {
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by nitrogen on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:38PM (#26798934)
But if that GPIO triggers an interrupt, you might be able to get the processor to do interesting things by oscillating the signal faster than the processor can disable interrupts and run the ISR.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by monocasa on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:49PM (#26799079)
That's almost always explicitly handled for line glitch reasons.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by nitrogen on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:50PM (#26800475)
Haven't there been mod chips for consoles that worked by glitching the lines at just the right time?
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by monocasa on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:25PM (#26800883)
The one I know of that glitched lines at the right time (the xbox 360 reset glitch hack modchips) worked by glitching the reset line at the right time via a CPLD that had been attached in such a way as to bypass the analog filtering.

I agree that this scheme doesn't protect against hardware implants modifying lines, but the threat model discussed thus far was around propagation of software implants throughout a system.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by jfengel on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:19PM (#26799465)
They're talking about a TV show[1], where one early episode revolved around the fact that they had avoided connecting the computers to keep the bad guys out. (Sorry if I'm telling you something you already knew; the question you started with made it unclear.)

The show created an aesthetic like an old submarine, even using set pieces salvaged from other submarine movies. That was an aesthetic choice, making everything look cluttered and cramped and slow, increasing tension in exactly the way old submarine movies used to. In those movies, the computers weren't connected because they didn't exist. Actions were coordinated by phone.

It's a bit contrived that they had computers but not networks. It was just a conceit of the show, and actually it was really mostly just in that one episode. But the aesthetic carried through and made for great atmosphere.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(2004_TV_...

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:06PM (#26798415)
I think the various ship subsystems were isolated and they used analog voice telephones to request various ship operations from crew in those sub areas.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by markus_zhang on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:38PM (#26797949)
The problem is that many Iranians do not agree with the current government or the revolutionary guard. Some of them have access to key infrastructures such as the building that contains the centrifuges.

Reverting to old methods might not work so well when you face that situation.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by rowanG077 on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:30PM (#26797813)
I think it would be easier to own the stack. Don't use third party network equipment. Formally verify every layer of the stack. In the end this is probably cheaper then going back to computerless.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by kingkawn on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:43PM (#26798045)
https://collapseos.org/ (i'm not affiliated with this project in any way)
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by raverbashing on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:18PM (#26798637)
You can have low powered processors running the show, it's probably very feasible. Or even analog control is doable.

"Kids these days etc."

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by lmarcos on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:46PM (#26798090)
This is the equivalent of: let's not use a frontend/backend framework in our next project ;)
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by aswanson on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:25PM (#26797750)
Analog is the future. Steampunk nuke ops.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by HenryKissinger on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:33PM (#26797853)
There is truth in this comment.

Parts of the Russian government have reverted to using mechanical typewriters in lieu of computers, which are too susceptible to malicious hacking.

Also, the US Navy started instructing enlisted seamen how to navigate at sea by the stars, in case GPS stops working.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by philwelch on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:05PM (#26798399)
> Also, the US Navy started instructing enlisted seamen how to navigate at sea by the stars, in case GPS stops working.

Is the threat model there that someone hacks the GPS signal, or that someone shoots down the GPS satellites? Lots of countries have ASATs these days.

Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by sharikous on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:50PM (#26799809)
Even an idiot can jam GPS. A little more sophisticated attack would be spoofing it, still doable (just a Google search away)
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by monocasa on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:33PM (#26798870)
Probably jamming. GPS signals are very faint, and on fixed frequency bands.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by formerly_proven on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:03PM (#26798373)
But then again the Russians themselves famously placed very difficult to detect bugs in the mechanical typewriters of the American embassy.
Re:Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by c... by philwelch on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:13PM (#26798567)
And the Americans put one in the Soviet embassy’s Xerox machine.

I think a potential lesson of the story is to use technology that you understand at least as well as your enemy does. The communist bloc maintained registries of typewriter fingerprints so they could identify which typewriters were used to reproduce samizdat; I think it’s fair to assume that the Russians understand typewriters very well.