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Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by EricE on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:32PM (#26653983)
Your first mistake was thinking that you are the user they care about serving :p
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by retsibsi on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:42PM (#26654085)
Oh I know, I am pretty cynical and not exactly outraged here. But although they don't care about what's good for us, they do care about what will keep us on the platform. And if it gets harder to find good stuff and filter out the dross, that could conceivably have negative consequences for YouTube in the long run.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by EricE on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:49PM (#26654148)
I'm not outraged - I'm amused. The ultimate admission the only way they can spread their messaging is through force, not honest competition of ideas. How superior.

Nothing proves you have a worthy argument better than outright hiding from dissent.

Again, they don't care if you stay on the platform. If they did, they wouldn't touch it. The disagreement buttons were added in the first place because they increase and maintain engagement. After a few decades it's now all the sudden a problem?

Ha! The real problem is their desired narratives are being soundly rejected and it's embarrassing. So here we are.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by bobthechef on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:14PM (#26654410)
> The ultimate admission the only way they can spread their messaging is through force, not honest competition of ideas. How superior.

> Nothing proves you have a worthy argument better than outright hiding from dissent.

I don't know the general trends across YouTube or why they would do this. Certainly, they've also been silencing views they and certain influential groups advising them don't like, and I've seen videos put out by connected establishment and moneyed milieu downvoted into oblivion. But value and truth are not determined through popular vote. It might coincide, or it might not.

So the only way I can understand your comment is to suppose that downvoting of "preferred" YouTube content has gotten so severe that the company wishes to prevent the communication of exactly how much disapproval there really is for the "official narrative" (while potentially keeping track of it themselves) because once someone knows he's not alone in his disapproval, he might just have more confidence to resist or leave a comment that spreads a message unfavorable to them. So yes, dislikes might increase engagement, but it might not be the kind of engagement they want to facilitate.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by da_big_ghey on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:49PM (#26654786)
> downvoting of "preferred" YouTube content has gotten so severe that the company wishes to prevent the communication of exactly how much disapproval there really is for the "official narrative"

This is exact reason. Go to you tube home page and every day there is bar of "official sources" news on coronavirus (clips from news stations). Here are first four for this day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USE5USAodiI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4kqSV1p3T8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmOL9ek7Tys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpzcMZPTqA

Noticing here, each and every has more dislike than like.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by WillPostForFood on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:26PM (#26656342)
There is a political angle as well. Official Whitehouse videos have been getting 10x the downvotes as upvotes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynG4j-BsRhI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBpYZnmPz3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16p2PcPgB5M

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by retsibsi on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:53PM (#26654189)
> Again, they don't care if you stay on the platform.

Why not? Even if you're right that they care more about propaganda than money, what's the point of propagandising to an empty room?

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by bobthechef on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:18PM (#26654454)
People won't leave that easily. Nobody compares to YouTube. Facebook had no way of voicing disapproval for a long time and membership still increased. They are testing various options which might mean they're weighting the relative benefits and damage. And besides, they may be in a position where they have no choice if propaganda is more important than money.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by asiachick on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:27PM (#26655165)
facebook still has no way to voice disapproval.

They have like, love, care, haha, wow, sad, angry

Angry != disapprove because in the context of the other "emotions" it does not distinguish between disliking the post itself, or what it's referencing. If you post "Candidate X did Y" are you angry because the candidate did Y or because your friend posted something anti candidate X?

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by EricE on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:13PM (#26654409)
If logic were involved we wouldn't be having a discussion about removing dislikes in the first place, no? :)
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by retsibsi on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:32PM (#26654593)
Come on, I'm trying not to dismiss your perspective just because it sounds a bit conspiratorial, but this is not convincing. Are you saying the YouTube execs (or whoever is leaning on them) are just acting emotionally with no strategy?
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by EricE on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:39PM (#26655292)
There is absolutely a strategy - there is a particular point of view they favor, and anything counter to it is removed.

Dislikes are embarrassing to, for lack of better terminology, their pet causes. Simply disabling them on certain videos or channels calls even more attention to them - so why not just remove them entirely.

The only thing surprising to me is that it took them this long.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by jasonfarnon on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:11PM (#26656240)
It doesn't need to be that dislikes are embarrassing to their pet causes. There were a few instances where business partners would, e.g., post an ad campaign that got so many dislikes the dislike ratio entered the news cycle. I'm sure google gets pressure from their business/ad partners when that goes down.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by yjftsjthsd-h on Thursday April 01, 2021 @01:09AM (#26656869)
Wouldn't business partners be a trivial subset of their pet causes? It's not just a political set.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by markdown on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:25PM (#26656336)
What a silly conspiracy theory. If the wanted to hide embarrassing downvotes on certain videos, they'd just remove those downvotes, not the entire feature.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by EricE on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:07AM (#26678565)
When it's only the same kinds of content that has to have special treatment, that special treatment still calls unwanted attention.

So hence why the whole feature is pRoBlEmAtIc and must be removed :p

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by lawnchair_larry on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:58AM (#26656809)
They do that too
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by markdown on Thursday April 01, 2021 @05:23PM (#26666239)
So why would they remove the feature if it worked better manipulated?
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by AshWolfy on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:13PM (#26655898)
what narratives are being rejected?
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by kbenson on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:47PM (#26654757)
To be clear, they aren't removing the button, or a way for users to register their dislike or track that they already disliked a video (I assume), just the count of how many other people disliked it. As a matter of engagement, I'm not sure how much that statistic brings to the table. I agree it might make filtering out crap content somewhat harder, but I'm not sure how good it ever was for that. It might be that the vast majority of the time it indicated anything to the viewer it indicated that some campaign was underway, which generally is counterproductive as a viewer.

Personally, I upvote if I liked something, and I don't indicate anything if I didn't find it all that interesting or useful. Rarely if ever have I disliked something that youtube has recommended to me. The few times I have it's probably been because of some outside source noting it because it's objectionable. How useful of a signal is that to youtube or the creator? In that case it indicates what people that don't care about their content and aren't likely to watch any more of it think. That seems a poor source of feedback (and if we're talking about hat being useful to indicate to them that they shouldn't have done whatever they did, that's obviously served already by many other mechanisms, including comments).

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by drdeca on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:24PM (#26655143)
Personally, I have frequently wished that the downvote button on youtube _comments_ wasn’t fake. (Last I heard, it currently doesn’t even send a packet to any servers when you click it. It used to, until google+ iirc [edit: see correction/update provided by voussoir in the reply. Turns out it does now. Thanks for the update/correction.])

The inability to downvote substantially alters what is said/ranked highly, I think.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by voussoir on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:19PM (#26655582)
> Last I heard, it currently doesn’t even send a packet to any servers when you click it.

Just tested. It makes a post to

  /youtubei/v1/comment/perform_comment_action
with a parameter ?key and a payload containing "actions" both of which are long alphanumeric strings.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by drdeca on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:58PM (#26655822)
Oh! Thanks! I'm glad to hear that this has changed.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by city41 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:15PM (#26654422)
A while back they significantly increased the number of ads and also now show YouTube premium popups constantly. I would imagine it's had very little if any negative impact. Google knows YouTube is the only game in town.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by tachyonbeam on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:47PM (#26654751)
For now, but if they keep treating users like shit, it creates a bigger and bigger opportunity for competition to pop in. You might be thinking it's super hard for someone like you or I to create a YouTube competitor. That's probably true, but what about Amazon or Netflix? Can you imagine if Netflix had a YouTube-like platform where, if you're a subscriber, you get no ads?
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by city41 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:56PM (#26654857)
That's a good point. Who really knows, but possibly Google just doesn't see that coming, or at least not any time soon. A true competitor to YouTube would really do consumers and creators a lot of good though.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by tachyonbeam on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:53PM (#26655780)
Seems like it should be a market inevitability. There are just so many things wrong with YouTube. The main obstacle is the bandwidth cost, and that's not an issue for any major tech company.

I think Facebook could actually properly compete with YouTube if they wanted, it's just that their insistence that you have to be logged in to access content makes it much less appealing as a platform, because you can't just link people to videos easily.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by plerpin on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:20AM (#26656653)
>The main obstacle is the bandwidth cost

...hence the ads? How would competitors be immune to the need to pay the bills?

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by tachyonbeam on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:56PM (#26663077)
Netflix charges a monthly price. They could have an open YouTube-like service (no subscription required) which adds value to their offering, and tries to bring people into a paying Netflix subscription.

It's not just the ads that are the problem with YouTube. It's also the way they can just demonetize anything that doesn't please advertisers, and the way their recommendation algorithm works. They don't even show me a lot of the videos from people I subscribed to on the app's homepage. Wtf?

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by AshWolfy on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:24PM (#26655963)
This is unlikely, because youtube has one thing that no other platform does, creators. How many youtubers would actually be willing to post on another website, let alone exclusively? How many fans would actually follow them? For already risk averse youtubers this is unlikely.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by Sebb767 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:07AM (#26656598)
Many, actually. There are quite a few active alternatives now, such as Nebula for science YouTubers and Odyssey. Last I heard Linus Sebastian was working on an alternative as well.

It seems that most content creators are quite worried about the way YouTube handles (de-)monitization and copyright strikes. Many CCs are also streamers and use YT only as a side channel. Sure, YT still has a large footprint, but it's not as solid as it used to be.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by AshWolfy on Friday April 02, 2021 @12:07AM (#26668943)
There are, but generally for specific interests, and not nearly enough to challenge youtube's market domination. Without something dramatic youtube effectively has monopoly control of supply and demand.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by jacurtis on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:15PM (#26655548)
Yeah you seriously have to decline YouTube premium popup basically every session. So its not surprising to get that thing multiple times a day.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by jacurtis on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:13PM (#26655527)
> they do care about what will keep us on the platform

Yes they do. Watching 2 useless DIY videos and then a 3rd DIY video that finally helped you out, just kept you on the platform 3x longer than if you had filtered out the badly rated one and watched the helpful video first.

Checkmate. YouTube/Google/Alphabet Wins! 3x the ads. 3x the money. 3x the evil. Do not pass go, Google collects your $200. Time to hide the dislike counts... case closed.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by RandallBrown on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:40PM (#26654677)
They probably think that dislikes aren't actually a good signal for whether or not a video is relevant to a uer.

Crappy videos could automatically be filtered out of their search and recommendations because people abandon them early. They may have determined that's enough to help user's find what they need.

It also helps the issue of dislike brigading since you won't be able to "dislike" a video at all.

Not sure if that's the right move or not but I don't think it's necessarily a bad one.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by CyberRabbi on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:48PM (#26654141)
They hate us. The little guy. No criticism allowed
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by rz2k on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:09PM (#26655881)
YouTube premium never shows me adds, and downvotes have reliably gotten the AI to stop suggesting a musician or autoplaying a song that I don't like, regardless of their rough membership in a genre I otherwise want to hear.

It makes me feel guilty to downvote someone or their work who's probably a good person, but it's the only reliable way to tune the AI. I get a lot of enjoyment out of music on youtube premium, but would stop using the service if they started airing ads on the pay service, or began serving music in such a way that I couldn't tune the suggestions and automatic play queues.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by jlebar on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:19PM (#26655922)
The tweet is clear that you can still downvote videos to tune the algorithm. Dislikes just won't be shown.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by youeseh on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:12PM (#26656248)
Perhaps they should let paying members see counts.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by pushrax on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:38PM (#26656419)
Surprisingly, that would be the tipping point that would get me to pay. Dislike ratio is very useful to avoid wasting time.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by tomcooks on Thursday April 01, 2021 @02:45AM (#26657308)
That's what YouTube wants eh
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by rapferreira on Thursday April 01, 2021 @10:05AM (#26660653)
Just going to stop using Youtube at some point.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by qiqitori on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:34AM (#26657988)
I guess this might be the reason they're getting rid of the downvote functionality.

The YouTube community usually doesn't take downvotes as "not interested", but rather as an explicit expression of "this is crap".

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by ma2rten on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:18PM (#26655919)
When you see the suggestion you can select "not interested" instead.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by 252452d on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @11:37PM (#26656415)
Which does nothing, of course.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by epivosism on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:14AM (#26656634)
For me, on youtube premium, "not interested" has massive, immediate effects on what is shown in my feed. Try it and see.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by Retric on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:06PM (#26654325)
Perhaps, but this is the last Google product I still use. If they break YouTube like they did search, chrome, cellphones, and email, I guess I am off to find something else which must hurt their bottom line eventually.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by darepublic on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:27PM (#26654557)
sorry, couldn't help myself.

courtesy of youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwcJNsoY50E

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by kaszanka on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:26PM (#26654550)
The cold reality is that most users won't care.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by bogomipz on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:03PM (#26654937)
>"If they break YouTube like they did search ..."

I'm curious what you mean by search being broken? Do you mean the quality of search results or something with search functionality. I ask because lately I've found the quality of certain search results to be increasingly disappointing. I'm not sure if that corresponds to some known change they've made recently though.

Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by 8note on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:00PM (#26655455)
Nebula seems like an obvious alternative
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by benhurmarcel on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:53AM (#26660529)
It's only for a handful of channels though.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by ma2rten on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:29PM (#26655193)
Right, according to the tweet this is done based on feedback from creators.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by jacurtis on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:20PM (#26655583)
Yeah it's mainly to discourage dislike trains.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by ironmagma on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:56PM (#26655423)
I guess Tron wasn’t clear enough, it should have been “fight for the end user.”
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by 8note on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:57PM (#26655432)
That's still the advertiser, isn't it?
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by ironmagma on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:04PM (#26655477)
The phrase is defined as “a person who ultimately uses or is intended to ultimately use a product.” When YouTube was created, it was intended to show videos to users. There were no ads yet. So the intention is for the viewers to be the users.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by jp555 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:46PM (#26655741)
As long as it's still 2006.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by ironmagma on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:12PM (#26655897)
The core intention of YouTube is to have a platform to advertise on. Without the viewers, the advertisers would have no interest in the platform. If there were no advertisers, that would not sway the viewers from having interest in the platform. The ads are there as a means to the end, it’s not the end itself.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by jp555 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:28AM (#26660237)
If there were no advertisers, they would not be able to pay the expenses required to deliver something that meets user's expectations, and they would lose interest.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by ironmagma on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:15PM (#26662462)
Not necessarily. There are other models that could work for YouTube, like the subscription model, and they could always go back to YouTube being an unprofitable arm of Alphabet like it was.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by mancerayder on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:50PM (#26654157)
.. combined with the idea that there's much of an alternative. If the content creators I like are there...
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by retsibsi on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:55PM (#26654208)
In the short run they can get away with ~anything. In the long run though, anything that upsets users makes the rise of a true competitor marginally more likely.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by pmiller2 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:44PM (#26655327)
Something something pay for it something something you are the product.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by paulcole on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:55PM (#26654211)
Can you clarify this for me? I have always assumed that since I’m the one watching the video I’m their customer/user?
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by DrSiemer on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:03PM (#26654294)
You are not paying, right? So you are the product. You are targeted with ads tailored to your viewing pattern; your data is what creates value.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by xiphias2 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:21PM (#26654485)
I am actually paying to get rid of advertisements, not to get rid of useful features. This will just get me to stick with my channel subscriptions, as the recommendations are already often better and better scams.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by blihp on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:52PM (#26655392)
Unfortunately even then Google doesn't view you as the customer in any substantial way. Advertisers have been, and continue to be, who they want to keep happy. The reality is that, in aggregate, most users are willing to take a fair amount of abuse as long as it's free.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by xiphias2 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:57PM (#26655434)
It would have been an interesting experiment to show dislikes for premium users and see how many people pay for those feature, but I think that would have been too controversial compared to the ads that are accepted practice already.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:14PM (#26655048)
Cable television subscribers originally payed to get rid of ads. Then the channels realized they could get you to pay and watch ads. You will be monetized in every way possible.
Re:Testing a few new designs that don't show the public disl... by kube-system on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:02PM (#26654266)
The vast majority of YouTube users don’t meet the definition of “customer” — that would be their advertisers.