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Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by mrtksn on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @06:49PM (#26574014)
EV's may not completely solve the pollution problems because, as I was pointed out, the particles from the asphalt and the tires are actually major pollutants.

Apparently, the dark greasy stuff that you can see covering everything close to vehicle roads is not coming from the fumes but from the asphalt, tires and brakes.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by cronix on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:07PM (#26574224)
Tire pollution is also what's been attributed to killing a LOT of fish on the west coast, and likely elsewhere in the world where it rains and washes the tire particles from the roads into the streams, rivers and eventually oceans.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6525/185

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by sp332 on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:15PM (#26574298)
Fortunately that's been tracked to one specific chemical which can be replaced much more easily than getting rid of cars.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by megablast on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:05PM (#26574776)
Tires are still going to produce micro plastics that pollute out waterways.

It makes no sense environmentally to keep private cars around.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by rootusrootus on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:22PM (#26574925)
However, it makes huge sense economically, so they'll be around for a while.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:56PM (#26575244)
Does it actually? People are just happy to spend $50k on a car but dont like paying for public transport.

If we channeled half that money into public transport, we would have amazing systems and could save the other half. Without cars, many roads in city centers could be reclaimed into public squares, or planted.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by _carbyau_ on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:39PM (#26576345)
With todays Public Transport I couldn't simply go visit my friend 3 hours away on his farm. I can in a car.

Until Public Transport can match the quite amazing "go anywhere" utility of a car, it isn't going anywhere.

With money, engineering and creativity it could be done. And I hope it is. But even if it starts today, I won't live to see it in full action.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by legulere on Thursday March 25, 2021 @01:53AM (#26576953)
There’s always going to be something that is hard or unreachable by public transport. The key here is multi-modality: you reach the edge of the city by public transport and then switch to car sharing.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by _carbyau_ on Thursday March 25, 2021 @11:07PM (#26588386)
I agree with this. If you have self driving cars in particular then this is a quite likely one part of the solution.

I still fantasize about sitting in a standardised car-cabin-like box IE seats(maybe facing each other), aircon, windows, media.

And having it shuttled around like a packet on the network. Automated trains, trams, trucks, cars, drones even - all working in harmony to get you where you want to go.

That way I'd own my space. But all the moving parts can be communal and benefit from best engineering practice for efficiency at economies of scale.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by rootusrootus on Thursday March 25, 2021 @11:37AM (#26581570)
> then switch to car sharing

This presumes the existence of cars, which is exactly what is ostensibly to be eliminated in the public transit strategy.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by legulere on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:09PM (#26596353)
I am a pretty strong car-hater my self and I can only speak for myself, but I think that nobody wants to ban cars everywhere. There are lots of places though that would be much better with no or minimal cars.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by wffurr on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:06AM (#26579735)
I took a bus to a train to a bus to a tiny village in the countryside in England. Nothing in view for miles except the pub at the bus stop and a farm.

You could absolutely go visit your friend on his farm if we had a decent public transit system.

Also how is your specific case a refutation of the GPs argument anyway? Everybody always loves to argue against public transit with some weird special case that's somehow "possible". It's quite tiresome.

How about some imagination instead. Is it such a stretch to image a rural bus route that goes by your friends farm? How about a few mile bicycle ride from the nearest town's train station? How about renting a car ala Zipcar? I am sure there are many other ways to solve this non-problem.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by _carbyau_ on Thursday March 25, 2021 @08:42PM (#26587578)
Weirdly, I think we're largely on the same side here. :-)

Lets break this down:

1. I took a bus to a train to a bus to a tiny village in the countryside in England. Nothing in view for miles except the pub at the bus stop and a farm.

1A. Cool. I can't do that. I did write a convenience comparison [train, all day regional bus, unknown last mile effort] vs [car] but it was lengthy with predictable results, especially when travelling with wife and toddler.

But I am absolutely not against trying to make it better.

2. You could absolutely go visit your friend on his farm if we had a decent public transit system.

2A. Ok.

3. Also how is your specific case a refutation of the GPs argument anyway? Everybody always loves to argue against public transit with some weird special case that's somehow "possible". It's quite tiresome.

3A. I didn't think I was refuting? I like the idea of decent public transport for all. I mean, there wasn't even any specifics mentioned. Just a general "goodness" of it. I like goodness!

But many people take for granted the miracle of convenience a car provides. It certainly isn't some weird special case.

It is a huge task to match that with Public Transport, just via engineering and technically. Let alone doing it in such a manner that it is socially accepted by the public at large.

4. How about some imagination instead. Is it such a stretch to image a rural bus route that goes by your friends farm? How about a few mile bicycle ride from the nearest town's train station? How about renting a car ala Zipcar? I am sure there are many other ways to solve this non-problem.

4A. I did say "With money, engineering and creativity it could be done." And it really isn't an all or nothing endeavor either.

But it is a HUGE endeavor to match the convenience of a car. And my example was merely trying to demonstrate that.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by bluGill on Thursday March 25, 2021 @07:24AM (#26578864)
Forget about the farm. With todays public transit you are lucky if you can get to work, which is the easiest transit market to serve. If you need groceries it is just fine to transit managers if you drive.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by stjohnswarts on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:51PM (#26584591)
Well given my experiences on public transportation in a couple US cities (being threatened by some delusional guy and sitting beside people who smell like they haven't bathed in weeks) I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's gonna be a while. I think autonomous private rental cars/vans will be much more doable.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by tonyedgecombe on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:06AM (#26577882)
Yet areas that have been able to limit their use always seem so vibrant.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by stjohnswarts on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:49PM (#26584568)
Well that's been the fact for thousands of years if you can get enough humans in a centralized location, specialization and trade starts happening so it's kind of orthogonal to modern life. Not everyone wants to be told where to live and what to do.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by stjohnswarts on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:47PM (#26584553)
It does when you don't live in an autocracy and people still like cars. Unless you plan on herding all the rural people into cities.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Robotbeat on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:06AM (#26579728)
EVs have must less brake dust because they rarely use the brakes. But EVs don’t fully solve tire dust yet. HOWEVER, they make it a problem worth solving. When you’re comparing to diesel particulates (which are actually an enormous problem...) and fossil fuel smog to tire dust, solving tire dust doesn’t seem very pressing. But it would if we switched to EVs.

And there are possible solutions to tire dust. Changes to tire formulation, better road maintenance and mitigations, possibly relying more on tunnels (which we should do anyway in cities, even if it’s more expensive... and EVs make it much easier). Once fossil fuels are solved, it makes tire dust the next problem we can tackle.

So don’t use tire dust as an excuse to not transition to electric vehicles. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the much better. (And public transport can also generate particulates... tire dust, dust from rails, brake dust, and especially diesel particulates from buses.... we need to electrify everything.)

EDIT: And I don’t want to use this an excuse to NOT do public transport, only to argue it actually has much the same problem, but in case you don’t believe me on the rail dust thing: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1996-... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896971...

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by xnx on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @06:57PM (#26574124)
I'm optimistic that self-driving cars (in addition to primarily being electric) will be better maintained (tire pressure, lubrication, etc.) and better driven (fewer hard stops and starts) and that will reduce tire, brake, and road wear.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by mrtksn on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:02PM (#26574181)
Or, you know, implement mass transit systems underground like those in Europe and Asia.

If it's a densely populated place, I don't think that "less polluting cars" is the answer.

This underground train thing doesn't have to be called train as I understand trains are considered communism in the USA. It is actually a sharing economy of connected electric vehicles, atmospheric pressure hyper-loop if you wish. Many of those are autonomous too, like level 5 autonomy without LIDAR. They are often used with a loyalty card(called "Osyter card" in London, for example) and even work with your mobile phone if you prefer not to carry a plastic card!

You can always say that in 2 years it would be pressurised and run at supersonic speeds!

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by aaomidi on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:21PM (#26574367)
We essentially need to do both. US cities have unfortunately been designed with cars in mind, and restructuring cities would be even more devastating to the environment.

We need to work with the current conditions, and that means BOTH public transit and better EV/road infrastructure.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by coliveira on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:40PM (#26574545)
Exactly, European cities have been designed around public transportation, the way sane cities should be designed. American cities are the result of an experiment where everyone needs to have one or more cars to survive.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by mrtksn on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:45PM (#26574588)
Actually, the biggest European cities were designed to withstand medieval battles.

All the things attributed to the American car-centric lifestyle were a thing to some degree everywhere. Then people got tired of it and changed it. Probably Europe not having much petrol also helped, which also explains the tendency of the European cars having significantly smaller and efficient engines.

There are plenty of cool videos of European cities that used to be traffic hells that turned into bicycle friendly walkable places. Though admittedly the hell part still exist for those who choose the to drive the cars.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Qwertious on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @10:04PM (#26575770)
European cities used to be designed to withstand medieval battles. Sadly, they were not designed to withstand carpet bombing due to WW2 and had to spend a massive amount of money on rebuilding over decades.

That said, like you mentioned: that didn't stop them from making traffic hellholes. Designing a city to need cars is a choice.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by andrepd on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:52PM (#26574652)
What? European cities are mostly between hundreds and thousands years old. Nearly all of them weren't "designed for public transport".

Cars are a huge problem in Europe as well.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by cmrdporcupine on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @09:35PM (#26575548)
The core of European cities were built around foot and horse travel, and then that template fit for expansion outward, even after the influence of the car.

Take Mainz, Germany; where my father is from; the core of the city is a walkable old city (which my Opa knew every corner of having worked for the city for decades, and he toured me around all over it when I visited...). But then around it are a whole bunch of villages which grew into suburbs, and are connected by freeway. But it seems to me that because each of those villages, towns, and the central city already had a tradition of walkability, the connectivity between the towns, villages, suburbs took that into account when the post-WWII reconstruction happened.

In Mainz I was able to take a streetcar out from the centre of town to a small village in under 45 minutes and go walk in a forest. Here in southern Ontario -- where we have similar density and population to the Frankfurt/Rhine corridor -- such a thing requires a car.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Robotbeat on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:08AM (#26579748)
...and Europe uses LOTS of cars, still. As does Japan. I don’t understand why people argue for public transport as a reason not to electrify cars. Like, we HAVE to electrify cars. Is this just more excuses to justify buying a nice new combustion vehicle?
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by xnx on Thursday March 25, 2021 @10:58AM (#26581085)
New underground transit lines in the US are ridiculously expensive in dollar costs (which means they also have large environmental costs). In terms of lowest emissions per passenger mile, our best bet might be fleets of lightweight self-driving vehicles.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by samatman on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:05PM (#26574781)
Sure, the London Metro is a fine system. Add half a billion more riders per year, and run trains at night, and you'll be at parity with New York!

The snark is unwarranted, it is unwelcome, and it is against the guidelines for this site.

America is absolutely enormous, sprawling, and suffers from a relatively recent inability to build things, which is very frustrating indeed.

If we were to cram our entire population into, say, Michigan†, I doubt we would have given over our extensive rail network to freight. But, we did, and Los Angeles tram system was bought out in a shady backroom deal, and there were other various and sundry sins. But mostly, we invented jet travel, and trains just don't cover the 4500 kilometers between New York and Los Angeles in an appropriate amount of time.

Admit it: if you were going from London to Istanbul, you could take a train, but you would fly. Well, London to Istanbul and back, that's the distance from New York to Los Angeles. Which you can do by train! But, people don't.

California, that notorious bastion of communism, voted in a high speed train between San Francisco and Los Angeles, and is still waiting for what they paid for. LA has added quite a lot of Metro in the last 30 years, but with a mere 150km of rail, 93 stations, and only a hundred million yearly riders, there's a long way to go. Meanwhile SF can't get the BART to circle around the South Bay for love or money.

† The size of the entire UK, and there are ten states larger.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by mrtksn on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:29PM (#26574994)
I don't see why you are so defensive, it's a well-spirited comment IMHO intended to emphasise the problems with a way of thinking that I do not agree with but my apologies if you feel bad.

As the "densely populated area" remark should give it away, I do not claim that USA should build metro lines between cities. What I say that cars in cities are not the solution.

Funny enough, I am in Istanbul since a while. I flew from London to Istanbul, it took me about 8,5 hours I guess. 30 minutes to Heathrow, 2 hours at Heathrow, 5 hours in the plane(did not take off immediately) ,1 hour at Istanbul Airport, 1 hour on a bus to my destination. Definitely better than the train but only because there's no direct line. The trains in Europe are great but expensive. If there was an overnight train to Istanbul from King's Cross at reasonable price I would have taken it.

The mass transit in Istanbul is horrendous but wherever available, the metro is much much better than the Istanbul traffic. Admittedly, the car could be better if you are in an S class Mercedes and being chauffeured.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by cromulent on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @09:54PM (#26575703)
The UK invented jet travel.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by masonic on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:26AM (#26577638)
Indeed they did... as well as passenger jet in-flight breakups. There's a reason square windows aren't used anymore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by tonyedgecombe on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:09AM (#26577905)
Self driving cars will most likely make it all worse. If you are assuming a taxi like service then they will drive to you empty and away to their next pickup empty so that means more miles. Then you have the problem of a long commute becoming more acceptable if you can relax and read the paper during your journey.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by itsoktocry on Thursday March 25, 2021 @08:34AM (#26579427)
Also, thinking that these cars will be "better maintained" flies in the face of reality. They will likely be minimally maintained.

Believe it or not, a substantial proportion of the population takes pride in their car ownership and the maintenance thereof.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by agumonkey on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:10PM (#26574811)
Somehow I don't think they will be better maintained, but I can see manufacturers trying to improve tires and others parts now that all the combustion engine complexity is gone and they can spend resources on marketing other parts of the car for competition.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by RangerScience on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:22PM (#26574379)
AFAIK EVs actually start/stop harder (Teslas do, at least) - it's the EV torque thing.

Brakes get less use tho, due to regenerative braking.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Robotbeat on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:10AM (#26579776)
They don’t stop harder. If they accelerate faster it’s because people buy them as sports cars because Tesla took the strategy of making electric cars more than glorified golf carts so that people would actually want them.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Pokepokalypse on Thursday March 25, 2021 @01:18PM (#26582845)
easy software fix.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by sokoloff on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @06:53PM (#26574072)
Mostly true, but some is fluid leaks, of which there are fewer in a typical EV (fewer fluid systems, more constant pressures in them, and EVs are newer and less frequently in disrepair; that last point is a downside in some ways as almost no one will be driving a 2015 Tesla in 2070 while there are tens of thousands of 1960s era Mustangs still operating).
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by amatecha on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:20PM (#26574362)
Yeah, when I lived in an apartment facing a pretty busy street, the white railings on our balcony always got a nice thin layer of black grime, the smell of which I recognized as brake dust. Nice toxic particles floating into our windows and onto our balcony and outside walls 24/7, I guess.. :(
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Robotbeat on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:11AM (#26579794)
EVs produce about an order of magnitude less brake dust.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by amatecha on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:56PM (#26585256)
Nice, that's great to hear. I'll look into this as I saw this mentioned elsewhere, so now I'm curious :)
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by danans on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:36PM (#26574514)
Even brake pad wear is greatly reduced with EVs, thanks to regenerative braking.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by tszymczyszyn on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:00AM (#26577854)
OECD published a report[1] on EVs lately. I haven't read it but according to various press sources it claims that EVs might make things worse, e.g.[2]:

"The report assumes that diesel and gasoline-powered cars are going to be replaced with electric vehicles, eliminating tailpipe emissions, but that problematic PM emissions will remain or even increase."

[1] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/environment/non-exhaust-partic...

[2] https://www.treehugger.com/electric-cars-wont-save-us-from-p...

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Robotbeat on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:12AM (#26579803)
I’m very skeptical of that claim.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by agumonkey on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:11PM (#26574822)
Maybe a good time to fuel research into new material ?
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by danans on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @08:26PM (#26574972)
A new material for what?
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Robotbeat on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:12AM (#26579809)
Tires.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by agumonkey on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @09:01PM (#26575286)
brake pads
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by danans on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:20AM (#26577063)
Perhaps I missed something, but if we are using brake pads even less because of regenerative braking in EVs, why do we need a new material for them?
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by agumonkey on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:04AM (#26577868)
to get to even lower particule levels nothing else
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by jeffbee on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @06:56PM (#26574102)
EVs do nearly eliminate brake dust, which is a large component of vehicle particulate emissions.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by briefcomment on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:50PM (#26574637)
I've heard that the increased weight of EVs results in more tire particulate matter than ICE cars. Is that true? Probably an ok tradeoff to reduce combustions PM and brake pad PM.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by jayd16 on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:37PM (#26576328)
Model 3s weigh about the same as a a BMW 3 series. We're talking about 100 pound or so difference.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by itsoktocry on Thursday March 25, 2021 @08:41AM (#26579495)
Batteries are heavy, period.

If you selectively choose the smallest Model 3 vs the heaviest 3 Series BMW, maybe it's 100lb. If you choose models with comparative ranges, it's as much as 800lbs. That is a massive difference.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by tonyedgecombe on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:38AM (#26578091)
The Jaguar i-pace weights about 800 lbs more than the f-pace despite being about the same length.

The model 3 and BMW aren't really that close either depending on which model you pick.

Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by jeffbee on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @09:51PM (#26575682)
Depends a lot on the tires. Weight is bad, of course, as are high-performance tires like those on a Tesla. Other electric cars often have rock-hard high-efficiency tires that don't shed as many particles.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by GordonS on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:10PM (#26574252)
I haven't heard this before - how does that work?
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by gambiting on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:13PM (#26574281)
Tha car slows down by using its electric motor to generate electricity instead. So actual brakes are only used for really heavy breaking. I see the same effect in my PHEV which uses its electric motor to regenerate power - after a year of ownership the brake pads are like new, there is no wear on them at all.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by WalterBright on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:14PM (#26574289)
Regenerative braking where the braking charges the battery, rather than just converting the speed into heat.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by stjohnswarts on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:47PM (#26584544)
EVs + autonomous (true autonomous) driving are going to be a god send if it ever comes to fruition.
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Draken93 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:35AM (#26577709)
Correct me if I am wrong, but fumes from tires should not be a problem with EV's ?
Re:Pollution from fossil fuel combustion deadlier than previ... by Kbelicius on Thursday March 25, 2021 @07:26AM (#26578887)
Why wouldn't they be? Are they using different kinds of tires to ICE cars?