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Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by cletus on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:18PM (#26549315)
I actually blame Johnny Ive for this clusterf*ck. Ive famously pursued a crusade for thinness. It's said that design is the art of compromise. Well, Ive took a no compromises approach to thinness and it showed.

Look no further than the 12" Macbook. One port (also needed for power), lower power CPU and (I believe?) the start of the dreaded butterfly keyboard. IIRC the butterfly keyboard's raison d'etre was to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of a Macbook. That's... it. Oh and that same crusade is probably a big part of why we lost the MagSafe adapter.

Compare the 12" Macbook to the (2010 and onwards) Macbook Air. A good compromise of thinness, power, ports and price point. For years, many (including myself) just wanted an upgrade to the Macbook Air with a retina display (and more modern ports). But we didn't, we got the "no compromises" Macbook instead.. until that was (thankfully) killed and the macbook Air came back.

And sure Ive designed the 2008 Macbook Air and he deserves credit for his design but... he clearly went off the deep end at some point after that.

The M1 Air even got rid of the stupid touch bar (thank God).

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by TheRealSteel on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:00PM (#26550119)
I don't believe the Air got rid of the Touch Bar -- it never had it. It was only on the Pro. What's so "Pro" about replacing the useful function keys (including the escape key) with a bar that does nothing but pick emojis is beyond me.

I strongly dislike the Touch Bar. I'm typing this on a 2019 MacBook Pro whose Touch Bar died yesterday, leaving me with no escape key, no volume buttons, no keyboard brightness buttons, and no play/pause button -- leaving me to do all of those in software -- including escape.

I never found a single useful purpose for the Touch Bar's main mode, so from about two weeks after I bought it, it's been set to simply show function keys ("expanded control strip"). This means I have function keys that accidentally activate when I'm trying to type numbers, that timeout and disappear to save battery, that can't be 'hovered' (touching without pressing) and that have no tactile feedback, slowing you down by forcing you to look away from the screen. And now - I've lost the entire row.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by harha on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:54AM (#26551567)
The touchbar as a more complex, expensive and easy to break part is such a poor design choice. Though so is the rest of the butterfly keyboard. It shouldn’t cost so much to replace such a simple part that is directly used everyday.

This is also why I dread having to get a new car with all the fancy electronics, they might be cool and useful now but apart from touchscreens being inferior to handle without looking on them (something I prefer to avoid while driving), that’s one thing that will both break and in general be worse than my phone, probably already when it comes out and by the next generation at the latest. (Quite ironically Bluetooth as the interface to my car was the first thing that broke and would cost EUR 900 to replace, which makes me happy I didn’t take the navigation)

I wish I could just pay a premium for longer lasting design. It also shows how silly it is when companies say they want to be net zero on emissions, then produce something that could easily work well for almost a decade were it not for some ridiculously expensive part breaking.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by Noumenon72 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @02:13AM (#26551647)
Just yesterday I finally found out why Word on the Mac kept selecting text while I was typing! After weeks of thinking the touchpad was ultra sensitive, I figured out that my finger hovers over F8 when I type the letter 'y'. F8 activates Extend Mode in Word, so my typing got captured to expand my selection to the next occurrence of each letter. I never felt myself touch the key at all.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by Jyaif on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:33AM (#26553788)
That brings back memories! I kept accidentally playing/pausing music with this stupid Touch Bar. I worked around the problem by removing most buttons and keeping the right side of the Touch Bar empty.

The physical keyboard eventually became totally unusable so I now use an external keyboard 100% of the time, which solves the problem once and for all. Thanks Apple!

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by ayyy on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:02PM (#26550129)
Protip: remap capslock to escape. It's supported in the OS settings.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by TheRealSteel on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:06PM (#26550157)
That's what I've done, but I hate having to adjust my typing habit. It's annoying enough that thanks to the touch bar I'm now incapable of typing escape on any other computer (because I'm in the habit of merely touching escape, not pushing it), now I have to adjust again and I'm going to be in the habit of pushing caps lock.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by zests on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:19PM (#26550654)
GNU Readline has destroyed my ability to work on non-readline editors. It's worse when I am using a machine where caps lock means caps lock. I have it bound to control (on hold) and escape (on tap). When I typo on a different machine and reflexively type ^A^K to kill the line, it comes out as capital "AK" instead. Repeat multiple times.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by ayyy on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:22PM (#26550264)
That's actually a good habit to build.

Here's a windows utility you might find useful: https://github.com/susam/uncap

And here's an editor that's accommodating to your newly trained typing skills ;) https://www.vim.org/

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by 650REDHAIR on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:38PM (#26550382)
Long play to plug vim.

Good work.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by wildrhythms on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:43PM (#26550409)
I had to break this habit as well, and also as a result of the touchbar. I empathize with this struggle, it took me a couple of weeks to get used to capslock escape, but it was worth it.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by behnamoh on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:53PM (#26550898)
Believe me, you'll love using Caps Lock instead of ESC very soon. I switched the two using Karabiner (for mac) and I wonder how I used computers all those years before that. If you use vim (or vimium on Firefox), you'll absolutely like this change.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by piva00 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @02:45AM (#26551820)
Caps Lock as ESC on short presses and Cmd+Opt+Ctrl+Shift (Meta key) on long presses has opened up a lot of shortcuts on IDEs and OS for me.

It's been so many years that I can't remember how it is not having these combos.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by tomduncalf on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:06AM (#26552303)
You can switch it in keyboard preferences under “modifier keys” now, no need for Karibiner any more. Can’t remember when this was changed but it was a few years back
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by harha on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:58AM (#26551577)
I feel like that’s where the control key needs to be, I use that way more than escape, especially in combination with other keys and so it’s best when I can reach it easily.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by zests on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:16PM (#26550623)
My MBP has a tactile escape key. A much needed improvement over the full touch bar.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by d1zzy on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @08:21PM (#26562052)
Indeed I noticed the 2018 Macbook Pro became a much more useful machine for work and I was a lot more productive once I started using it clamshell-mode only with external keyboard/mouse/monitors.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by gogopuppygogo on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:58AM (#26552261)
The new 2019 MBP has a physical escape key. The touch bar is fantastic for my needs. I love being able to adjust applications with a touch panel slider. I do audio/video work from time to time.

I can see programmers hating it though.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by SpelingBeeChamp on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @05:46AM (#26552956)
I produce video, and I have to tell you... the touch bar? I love the thing. I suspect you may not be part of its target audience.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by artursapek on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:01AM (#26551308)
Never occurred to me that they could die, lol. That really sucks.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by germinalphrase on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @06:49AM (#26553425)
It always should have been on the screen.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by SilverRed on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:24PM (#26549366)
I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps. Saw the dell xps had HDMI, USB-C _and_ USB-A and was sold. Its nice to be able to bring my laptop in to a meeting room and just be able to plug in the hdmi cable without needing an adapter. Its also really nice to be able to use all my usb c accessories but without having to go usb C only.

And its not noticeably thicker than the macbook either. I can understand the pursuit of thinness or at least weight reduction in mobile devices. If the iPad was any heavier, you wouldn't be able to use it while standing. But on a laptop there is a lot more room for weight and thickness. As log as its comfortable to carry, that's good enough.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by Goosee on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:40PM (#26549477)
I use to have the same thought process as you: instantly sold on devices with native hdmi, usb a & usb c. By that metric xps beats macbook.

Recently I tried to convert to a windows laptop from my 16 inch mbp. Upon switching I was constantly annoyed by the fan noise & using my pinkie to press the 'control' key opposed to macbook thumb on 'command' key.

The point is, I realized native port selection was not a metric to consider when purchasing a laptop. I am fine bringing an adapter to the meeting room.

I guess it comes down to what you value. I am just trying to play 'devil's advocate' with my anecdotal experience compared to your experience.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by SilverRed on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:51PM (#26549561)
I found the fan noise to be horrific on the 13in i5 macbook I was using. The thing was overheating constantly and since I use linux and windows at home, having the cmd key different only while working was a huge annoyance for me. On my dell xps 15 I almost never hear the fans at all and there is usually only a quick burst of fan noise when running a webpack compile or something compared to non stop 80% fans on the mbp.

There are far more things that made the dell xps a better choice and ports was just one of them but still a very important one. USB-C adapters are pretty cheap but USB-C hubs are $100+ and have been a constant source of frustration when they keep failing unless you buy the most expensive ones.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by arcticbull on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:50PM (#26550033)
The M1's are dead silent, cold to the touch under all circumstances and dramatically faster. That was Intel, as it turns out, so if that was a big decision driver, I'd take another look!
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by mszcz on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @05:06AM (#26552680)
I recently upgraded/switched my dev machine from a desktop (Intel NUC Hades Canyon) to a Lenovo Legion 5-15 ARH "gaming" laptop with 32GB, 2xM.2 and Ryzen 4800H (more mobile, more pandemic friendly).

It's a big laptop by XPS13 standards sure, but one that's appropriately cooled. I hadn't been aware, up to that point, how much the fans bothered me. This thing is quick but at the same time real quiet. After some time I turned the NUC on for some reason, the funs launched into overdrive and I suddenly got annoyed.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by mssundaram on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:53AM (#26551560)
Use Karabiner Elements on macOS to switch the command key to what you want. And actually, I'm pretty sure it's possible in the built-in macOS settings, but I've always used that app for complex programmatic mappings.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by brailsafe on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:47AM (#26552571)
Aren't all good hubs quite costly though? I just use a shitty little USB-C adapter + usb cable, and my monitor acts as the hub. I agree about the fan noise.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by ActorNightly on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:58PM (#26549624)
The thing with "windows" laptops is that you can install and run Linux seamlessly out of the box, even distros that Mimic the look of OSX, and remap the keys to your hearts content.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by quesera on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:03PM (#26549672)
> even distros that Mimic the look of OSX, and remap the keys to your hearts content

Sadly, they mimic the macOS UI very poorly, and it remains not-possible in Linux to universally remap keyboard shortcuts to match macOS built-in sanity.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by airstrike on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:35PM (#26550364)
> to match macOS built-in sanity.

Yeah, I really wish I could map Alt+Down to open files in Nautilus so that I can then use the Enter key to rename them like any sane person

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by rbreaves on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:42AM (#26679056)
You should really take a look at https://ubuntubudgie.org.. it does not mimic the UI poorly at all.. the welcome app easily gets you to a dark mojave looking theme and then you can change the layout to cupertino for the global menu. Also open up budgie-settings to set the overall system theme to dark and that is literally all you have to do..

Also use waterfox instead of firefox if you want the browser to give you a proper global menu, or use chrome.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by DanAtC on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:38PM (#26549942)
https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto is pretty good on the keyboard front
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by nikanj on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:24AM (#26552050)
What people in the OSS land don't seem to understand is that the button shapes and control colors are not the killer feature of MacOS.

I can get a "looks like OSX" theme for KDE easily, but KDE will still be weirdly unstable, and have tons of impedance mismatch between it's components. You can't make a Ferrari out of a Ford by painting it the right shade of red.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by ActorNightly on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:45PM (#26596724)
I dunno if you have never used modern linux, but the current state of it is that you can install Pop OS on a laptop and hand it to your parents and they will figure out how to use it, without ever touching the terminal.

I also don't understand how people say Macs are stable. I get the spinny thing that locks up the entire system about once a week.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by boogies on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:07PM (#26549703)
The XPS line in particular has had Developer Editions with pre-installed Ubuntu, and IIUC significant effort by Dell to provide good Linux drivers, for years.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by fiddlerwoaroof on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:52PM (#26549579)
Yeah, also USB-C is pretty obviously the future: having a single connector for all my external devices makes it hard to go back to packing multiple connectors. And, instead of dongle adapters, I just buy cables with the appropriate connector pair: e.g. HDMI/USB-C for my TV
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by deergomoo on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @08:36AM (#26554279)
> Recently I tried to convert to a windows laptop from my 16 inch mbp. Upon switching I was constantly annoyed by the fan noise

Jesus, how loud was the Windows laptop? I just sold my 16" MBP for an M1 Air almost entirely because the fan noise on the 16" was unbearable.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by 650REDHAIR on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:45PM (#26550424)
My XPS 9550 had two batteries swell and the 2nd time it broke my upper case and trackpad.

I replaced the case, trackpad, and keyboard, but Dell won't sell me a battery and their batteries have DRM so you can't use a 3rd party unit.

My top of the line, i7, 32gb ram, 2gb gpu, 1tb nvme drive laptop is now no better than a paperweight. When plugged into shore power you can't get max CPU or GPU power and it's an annoying mess to deal with so it's just sitting.

I now own an X1 Carbon 7th gen and a 2020 i5 MBP and love them both. I'm traveling more than ever (bought a camper van to get out of the city center) and they are typically more abused than the XPS ever was. No problems at all. Shit, my 8 and 10 year old MBPs are still running after giving them away to friends in need.

I have a thin Anker dongle that has type a ports, ethernet, hdmi, and type c and a couple cheap backups in various bags. It's a small price to pay and all of our devices save the iPhone are type C now so I am slowing moving to one cord for everything.

Anyway...I'll never buy another Dell for the rest of my life. End rant

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by InvaderFizz on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:29AM (#26551442)
> Dell won't sell me a battery and their batteries have DRM so you can't use a 3rd party unit.

Are you sure you can't use a third party battery? Plenty of hits on Amazon for Chinese branded ones.

I replaced a XPS 9570 battery with a Chinese one a few months ago, seems fine to me.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by 650REDHAIR on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:19AM (#26631977)
Missed this previously, sorry!

Yes. I've tried flashing older BIOS versions. Multiple new chargers. I've tried 5 different batteries from Amazon and eBay. 2 have worked for a hot minute before failing to be recognized. I've popped in the swollen battery to test to make sure something else wasn't working and the swollen battery stays recognized.

Reading Reddit/talking to others in similar positions it's hit or miss whether the specific machine will work. I can't find a pattern with BIOS version, model, dates, etc. To date I've probably spent 30 hours troubleshooting and I've given up :(

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by SilverRed on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:33PM (#26550777)
This is a horror story and its bigger than just dell. Replacing a macbook battery is virtually impossible as well. IMO this is a problem that needs government action. The right to repair laws should include that ALL consumer electronics which use a battery have a serviceable battery and that parts be sold for x years.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:46AM (#26551524)
I had the same problem with a 9550. Luckily I was able to remind them of Samsung enough that they were willing to fix it for free.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by protomyth on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:12PM (#26550597)
Dell won't sell me a battery and their batteries have DRM so you can't use a 3rd party unit

Dell is horrible for this type of stuff. Had to retire a server early because of this type of policy. I wouldn't recommend them at all.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by midrus on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @02:04AM (#26551601)
I understand some people do need all these ports, but in my experience (and opinion) an XPS is worse in every other metric.

The trackpad is terrible, the sound is terrible, the screen is worse, the webcam is not as good. I cannot use windows so I have to use Linux, which brings a good bunch of its problems such as external screen with different resolutions, having to setup scaling for many applications individually, and always being the last guy to join meetings because every day I have a different problems switching to my usb headset, etc. I ended up going back to a macbook pro. The XPS hardware might look as good in the specs, but it won't last for more than 2 years, it crackles everywhere and the paint (in the trackpad, for example) wears off pretty easily if you use it every day.

So, yes, I'd love macbooks to have more ports, but by no metric that problem alone would lead me to prefer it over an XPS.

Just my preference/experience anyway.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by nightowl_games on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:03AM (#26551918)
I have XPS's and MacBooks in my house. For the record, none of the XPS's have HDMI or USBA. They have for several years. That's a shame. But in addition, none of the other things you mentioned are worse on the XPS.

I bought one cause I prefer Linux, my wife got one because it was 1k$ cheaper than the comparable MacBook. She's a designer and the screen is 100% Adobe RGB coverage.

The XPS and MacBook, from a hardware perspective, are basically equivalent. Its a shame they both took the ports out.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by 2muchcoffeeman on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:30PM (#26550323)
I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps. Saw the dell xps had HDMI, USB-C _and_ USB-A and was sold.

Enjoy it while it lasts, the current XPS generation is USB-C only.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by darkwater on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @05:53AM (#26553015)
> I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps

Which XPS? My XPS 13 9300 has just 2 USB-C ports and a micro-SD slot (I don't mind carrying a small USB-C to everything adapter TBH, you can even have ethernet and VGA with that)

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by philliphaydon on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:22PM (#26549826)
Work gave me an XSP And I gave it back. One of the worst laptops. They used to be really good but the thing runs so hot and loud compared to my Lenovo. And still nothing beats Lenovo keyboard.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by bborud on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @06:01AM (#26553079)
You can probably use the Ive/Jobs combination to describe evolution. Ive was the mutation source, Jobs was the selection filter. What makes evolution work is selection. Without selection you get crap. Mutation is just the noise you need to have something to apply (recombination and) selection to.

It is hard to say how much post-Jobs was really Ive. But it was clear that Apple got really lost. And it does suggest that Ive was rather mediocre all along. After all, he sinned against one of the most basic principles when you design something: it has to deserve to exist.

In the latter half of the 2010s it got really bad and dare I say: Apple didn't do very well in designing laptops. They really lost touch with reality.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by 2muchcoffeeman on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:21AM (#26553673)
I find this an uncharitable view point. All sorts of creative work goes through a filter. Writers have editors, musicians have producers, actors have directors, programmers have other programmers. And when the filter fails (or dies), the result is bad.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by bborud on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:54PM (#26561861)
What matters is whether or not it describes observable facts.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by odiroot on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @06:34AM (#26553312)
> You can probably use the Ive/Jobs combination to describe evolution. Ive was the mutation source, Jobs was the selection filter.

So they were a kind of a subtractive synthesizer, one could say.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by bborud on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:45PM (#26559490)
That’s actually a nice ANALOGy.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by jghn on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:52PM (#26549574)
YMMV. My 12" retina MacBook was perhaps my favorite machine I've owned. I have a M1 Air now, I like it as well. There are some pros and cons to both. I do still miss the smaller form factor.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by mercantile on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:16PM (#26549775)
I agree — the 12" is still Apple's best ever form factor. I even considered buying another one as the line was winding down. (Though was glad I didn't after the M1 came out.)

But to be fair, the comment you're replying to is talking specifically about the 12" MacBook's keyboard, which is indeed awful. I'm typing on one right now, and even after years on the thing, it's a perpetual reminder of how they're slower to type on, and kind of make your fingers hurt.

Remove the butterfly keyboard, add a second port, and the 12" MacBook gets unequivocally better.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by Nextgrid on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:19PM (#26549795)
Surprisingly enough I quite like the keyboard. Its reliability is shit (though better in the 2017 model - haven't had to replace mine yet) but the feeling of it is fine; it took some time to get used to but after that I don't mind it at all!
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by jghn on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:20PM (#26549801)
I didn't mind the keyboard so much. I'll admit that when I switch back to that machine that I don't like it as much as on the MBA, but it was fine. Granted, I've always had weird keyboard preferences in terms of tactile feel, travel distance, and the like.

Once in a while I'd wind up with the sticky keys, but was lucky enough to avoid anything permanent.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by Mindwipe on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:33AM (#26553789)
Agreed. The small form factor is amazing, but ultimately the keyboard will always be awful.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by Nextgrid on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:18PM (#26549787)
Same here. I've got the M1 Air and while it's good, it's definitely bigger and heavier than the 12-inch, which is a bit of an inconvenience once you're used to the former.

It's a sad coincidence they decided to discontinue it before their M1 CPU was ready because the M1 would've been right at home in the power & thermal envelope of the 12-inch Macbook.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by Mindwipe on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:32AM (#26553782)
I hope there will be a 12-inch Macbook successor at some point.

The 13 inch Air is too big. But I suspect we're going to see chassis redesigns for everything given the new thermal windows, so maybe that will be the opportunity.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by spinningarrow on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:12PM (#26549747)
Mine too! I loved how incredibly light it was. I never had to think twice about taking it somewhere with me. I rarely used the port for anything other than charging, so it wasn’t too much of a hassle. Definitely disliked the keyboard though (I had the first generation).
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by jghn on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:21PM (#26549807)
I kept mine instead of trading it in for the post-pandemic era. Similar to you, I could throw it in a bag and not even notice it was there. It was perfect for carrying around, traveling, etc.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by sjwright on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @12:05AM (#26550975)
I have exactly the same feeling about the form factor but even with the maxxed-out spec (2017 with i7 and 16GB of RAM) it feels underpowered even when doing fairly basic tasks. And though I'm sure it's mostly psychological, the keyboard feels delicate.

The M1 Air is a bit bigger, but that two centimetres of width does go to good use with a bigger screen (with more pixels), a bigger trackpad, and a bigger battery.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by shp0ngle on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @02:15AM (#26551653)
I have 2017 MacBook retina, and... it is just way too slow. Can open 2 or 3 electron apps at the same time at max. Trying to run 3 electron apps and an IDE, it becomes unusable.

And nowadays everything is an electron app. So... I am considering updating.

I love the form factor though and I don’t really care about the ports or the keyboard. (it broke once, I fixed it)

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by cehrlich on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:00AM (#26552272)
I mostly agree with you, although I'd make one pedantic argument:

The 12" MacBook made a great set of compromises (other than keyboard reliability) for the goal it intended to achieve. I had one for several years and loved it.

The mistake was taking the compromises from the 12" and applying them to the rest of the lineup, where they made no sense at all.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by ramraj07 on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:43PM (#26550414)
Is it really his fault though? Apple from the beginning pushed the boundaries multiples faster than any other company by asking the engineers to create the impossible, and more often than not they delivered. The butterfly keyboard did work, it just had reliability issues (I loved typing on the butterfly as long as it worked). The problem was that they tried to never take the complaints seriously in the open while secretly trying to fix the design with bandaid after bandaid before finally giving up. That’s the problem, owning up to mistakes (remember the audacity with which Jobs spoke about antenna gate asking the people to hold the phone correct) not the excessive push towards thinness. We reap the benefits of the dogged pursuit by the crazies in the company which just means once in a while they also screw up something.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by PhantomGremlin on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:07AM (#26551943)
We reap the benefits of the dogged pursuit by the crazies in the company which just means once in a while they also screw up something.

All companies screw up. Much worse than Apple screwing up is that they continued to obfuscate and prevaricate and deny.

Repeatedly. For years.

In other words, they doubled down (actually tripled down, 3 editions of butterfly) on stupidity.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by irjustin on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:36PM (#26549933)
FWIW, I enjoy the touch bar.

I have a few custom keys, one which runs a script that finds my airpods, connects, turns on eq (boom), starts spotify, sets volume my normal level, hits play.

I do hate it when the touchbar crashes and requires a reboot, but I've gotten so much milage out of my script keys that I'd rather keep it.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by spicybright on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:51PM (#26550044)
Touchbar is useless without BetterTouchTool for me.

I have buttons to open notes files, open my jira with tap, a strip with scrollable weather, screenshot buttons, automated settings control (like the security screen) and finger gestures.

Swipe left and right with 2 fingers for volume control, 3 for brightness, 4 for keyboard backlight. It feels so smooth and natural to change the volume that way.

It can do a ton though. best 7 bucks I've spent, and makes me want a touchbar on all my laptops from now own, surprisingly.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by soheil on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:02PM (#26550533)
Please don't say that publicly, you might give Apple ideas to bring it back. F*ck touch bar.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by gnicholas on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:02AM (#26552284)
> I do hate it when the touchbar crashes and requires a reboot

I don't even want to consider the possibility of my keyboard crashing. Imagine if that happened on iOS! Input devices have to be 100% rock-solid.

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by robinsonrc on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:34AM (#26551463)
I like this general idea and indeed do similar things, but I’d personally much rather use regular keyboard shortcuts powered by something like Alfred than rely on the Touch Bar
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by jordache on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @10:54AM (#26555768)
ive is a one trick pony w/ myopic perspective on design - One that is purely focusing on useless aesthetics. Hope apple products going fwd will have superior hardware design that balances usability w/ style.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by onelovetwo on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:57PM (#26550093)
Johnny Ive is probably the best thing to Apple since Jobs. Be aware hes not doing the engineering (which is the problem in this case)
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by marshmallow_12 on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:22PM (#26550265)
complain as much as you like, and you may be mostly correct. But you overlooked one absolutely brilliant piece of Apple technology: the ipod nano 7. (insert hysterical laughter). Make fun if you want, it's obsolete, only 16gb, poor battery, old bluetooth etc. You are right, but i challenge anyone to show me anything comparable, with such a good touchscreen, that is slim enough that you don't feel it in your pocket. Every mm matters, and the nano 7 has no parallel afaik. We will look back in 20 and speak with hushed awe about how well packaged the nano 7. You rail against ive's crusade, but it isn't all bad news.

Rip iPod

Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by d1zzy on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @01:34PM (#26570390)
My wife liked it so much we bought a couple of new ones when the product was retired just to make sure we'll have at least one working for decades to come. Still using one every day.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by kube-system on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:11PM (#26550590)
What do you need pockets for? Did you forget the 3rd gen iPod Shuffle?
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by marshmallow_12 on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:24PM (#26550701)
I fail to see any point in the Shuffle. Way too much money for something without a screen. The 7 otoh could have had better specs, but as far as the screen, casing, buttons etc are concerned, it is perfection itself. When i hold it i am aware that it is the most complete product in it's class. For all time. Period. And also, the Shuffle has a clip i think. That pointless, dumb thing that ruined the 6. I doubt ive had much to say about that clip.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by dencodev on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:43PM (#26550849)
My dream smart phone is nano 7 dimensions but with an edge to edge screen
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by 2muchcoffeeman on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:31AM (#26553772)
The 6th Gen was the best! Super small, built in clip.
Re:MacBook Owners' Butterfly Keyboard Lawsuit Gets Class Act... by marshmallow_12 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:07PM (#26557344)
I hate that clip. even Though it would have been hard to hold without it, it's a horrible compromise.