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Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by A-Train on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:43PM (#26481054)
To all the people saying 10k is low. What he did and the way it got acknowledged can net him millions of dollars in the future income. He could start a company saying that "from the guy who reduces GTA V loading times 70%". I think that what he did is amazing and I'm sure it is not the last time we hear from this guy.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by that_guy_iain on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:51PM (#26481182)
> What he did and the way it got acknowledged can net him millions of dollars in the future income.

I think people over estimate how valuable reputation is. It can open doors but that is all. Being the guy who reduced loading times in GTA may get some VC interest but that doesn't automatically equate to making any money. It may get you a job and get you paid a few thousand more than usual. But honestly, I've never seen one of these famous devs make lots of money. They'll get offered CTO roles but that's been the max.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by colonwqbang on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:59PM (#26481291)
Maybe not millions of dollars, but I can see a successful consultancy specialising in optimisation of games.

> Does your game take forever to start? Your lazy devs say there's nothing to be done about it? Just give us a call! As seen on hackernews.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by smnrchrds on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:21PM (#26482312)
How many times can one person perform a miracle?
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by colonwqbang on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:12PM (#26483043)
It's not a miracle, this programmer was just smart enough to see something that nobody at Rockstar had seen. Or nobody in the engineering org cared to look. These could both be good reasons for somebody higher up to hire a "star consultant", no?
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by that_guy_iain on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:40PM (#26483419)
> It's not a miracle, this programmer was just smart enough to see something that nobody at Rockstar had seen. Or nobody in the engineering org cared to look.

Or more likely, no one had time to look. I keep see people acting like not fixing something is because the devs don't care. More often than not it's because we're being told to do something else instead.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by colonwqbang on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @05:25PM (#26496969)
Sure, I'm not saying the Rockstar devs are stupid. I was addressing the idea that it was some kind miracle that happened here, rather than just competent engineering.

"I don't have time to do it myself" is probably a very common reason why consultants are hired.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by smnrchrds on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @06:20PM (#26483955)
Do you honestly believe that the person can look around any code base and find significant speed increases? Do you think he can significantly increase the speed of Firefox, or Excel, or SQLite? Maybe he is the solution to Mozilla's woes—just hire him for a month, he will increase Firefox's speed by 70%, and everyone flocks from Chrome to Firefox for the increased speed. At least, until next month that Google hires him and he increases the speed of Chrome and everyone flocks back. With such a valuable resource, it is unethical to monopolize—there should be a waitlist so every company can use his genius. By the decade's end, every piece of software will be running more than twice as fast.

Or maybe this was a case of a rare low-hanging fruit lying around for someone to find. Maybe the entire software industry is not one giant low hanging fruit waiting for the right genius to emerge and pick.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by detaro on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @06:46PM (#26484217)
I don't see how you think that's what the parent commenter is believing. For starters, the modder didn't make "GTA V 70% faster", he made one small (but noticeable) part 70% better.

And yes, there are many code bases where performance isn't prioritized in all areas, and one totally can expect a skilled engineer coming in to look at performance to find nice speed increases here and there. Not because they are magically better than everyone else, but because a) they are given the freedom to spend time on it where nobody else has been and b) because they are possibly more familiar with approaches and tooling than a dev that hasn't had the opportunity to prioritize performance. All your examples likely do have such people available, and thus bringing someone in is less likely to find something really juicy, unless they have some blindspot. Large game projects for sure have performance experts, but maybe they primarily spend their time on in-game performance and initial resource loading was a blind spot. Maybe that's a common blind spot. And outside games that's commonly waaay worse - performance isn't prioritized, and to be fair the fact that slower-than-necessary software usually sells just as well makes that understandable economically for a long time. But also makes it difficult if it gets to the point where it should/must matter.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by d1zzy on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @08:02PM (#26484892)
> Do you honestly believe that the person can look around any code base and find significant speed increases?

In my experience, YES! It is often the new set of eyes (especially if they are on a a smart head with lots of time, energy and will available) that finds new solutions, optimizations and bugs we never thought about. And the people I work with are the smartest people I have ever met and that still is nowhere near enough to ensure that the large scale software projects we work on have had all the possible large optimizations done already.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by hilbertseries on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:13PM (#26483053)
Yeah, the answer in this case is that there was some low hanging fruit he was able to find. There's not always a simple solution to latency and performance problems.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by slightwinder on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:22PM (#26481575)
And reputation can even backfire, when people start to have to high exceptions about your results.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by michaelcampbell on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:58PM (#26481277)
Indeed, look at the bevy of Twitter posts from authors of a given tech/stack/framework being turned down by companies to work with said tech because of "lack of experience".
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by csunbird on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:10PM (#26481427)
Reminds me of Max Howell, creator of homebrew, when he applied to Google.

His tweet:

Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but you can’t invert a binary tree on a whiteboard so fuck off.

https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?lang=en

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by camjohnson26 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:19PM (#26481543)
He later walked that Tweet back and said he shouldn’t have sent it. Seems like he has a very strong skill set in building projects, but Google needs more focused skill sets for lower level developers, so just wasn’t a good fit. https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin...
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by sva_ on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:28PM (#26481663)
The example of the OP also reminded me of Max Howell, but the only other similar story was the one of the guy who was prompted to implement fizzbuzz, and attempted to do so in Tensorflow[0]. In the latter case, I can totally understand that he might've been turned down with such a cocky (though funny) attitude, if the anecdote is true.

Are there other notable cases of people who got turned down in spite of - or because of - their extensive knowledge in a case like this?

[0] https://joelgrus.com/2016/05/23/fizz-buzz-in-tensorflow/

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by xiphias2 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:07PM (#26481390)
The guy who decreased GTA loading time by 70% understands the difference between O(n^2), O(n*log(n)) and O(n). That's exactly what a big company is looking for, not a successful product.

The other person was much better match for a small company / startup.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by sva_ on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:33PM (#26481722)
I'm very sure that the GTA devs understand the difference between O(n^2), O(n), etc. They just didn't catch this particular way in which the compiler/standard library changed the complexity time dramatically. The reason for why they didn't catch it is up for debate, but it's surely not because they don't understand basic "Big O" concepts.

edit: actually, nevermind. I realize you're probably referring to the hashmap lookup part, rather than the strlen() part?

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by dogma1138 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:12PM (#26482201)
Most likely because the bottleneck for loading was somewhere else when they tested it originally quite likely the slow HDD of the consoles of the time.

GTA V came out 8 years ago, it had to run on the base PS4/Xbox One not to mention the PS3 and 360 these were the systems it was first validated on.

It also had much much less content at the time.

As the game released on PC and the amount of content grew the loading times didn’t regress but they also didn’t improve.

So when your benchmark is a console that loads a game in 5-10 minutes no one probably spent any time investigating what the bounds on a modern PC with PCIe storage should be.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by xiphias2 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:01PM (#26482086)
I was writing about the person who couldn't ,,invert'' a binary tree. It's totally fine, he can be a great programmer, even a great CEO, he's just probably not the best fit to Google SWE role.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by michaelcampbell on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:14PM (#26481493)
> The guy who decreased GTA loading time by 70% understands the difference between O(n^2), O(n*log(n)) and O(n). That's exactly what a big company is looking for, not a successful product.

I haven't been at any that have cared (none of my past jobs' have been FAANG, but several have been in the over 10k employees size.)

*SOME* potential colleagues care, and a VERY FEW managers care that you know that, but I have found that to be the exception.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by xiphias2 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:18PM (#26481540)
I was working on the Google Ads backend, and we had a strict 20ms timeout. The managers didn't care about the algorithms themselves, but my change had a 0.1ms impact on latency in the experiment arm, for launching that you need director level exception approval.

My tech lead actually helped me by saying that the trick is that instead of trying to speed up my own code base (which was really hard), it's easier to find something to improve outside my change to balance for the 0.1ms impact inside the same experiment.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by cloverich on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:46PM (#26484745)
> It can open doors but that is all.

Opening closed doors is frequently THE thing that changes a persons circumstances. Anyone who's been ghosted by an application process can attest to that. You can (interview) prepare all you want, but if you can't get in front of someone it won't matter.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by Voloskaya on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:50PM (#26481946)
How is this different from the meme about designer not getting paid but instead being rewarded "with exposure"?

What he did can, maybe, potentially, eventually, net him a lot of money if he does this and that. Sure, but maybe he doesn't want to start a company and spend his time looking for customers? Or maybe he has an actual need for real money right now and not hypothetical money in the future?

What he did was worth a fuck ton of money to rockstar, so yes 10k is very low, and the fact that he might maybe make up for it in the future if he lives like you want him to does not change that.

In my opinion the only argument that can be made for that 10k, is simply that rockstar never asked for any help and never had any bounty open, so anything they want is fair.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by path411 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:57PM (#26482041)
As a developer almost anything you do is worth far more than what you are paid for. I agree "exposure" is never a proper payment, but I think acknowledgement from Rockstar is a bit more legit along with the 10k cash, which I bet he never imagined he would get.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by jfrunyon on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:03PM (#26482095)
> What he did was worth a fuck ton of money to rockstar

[dubious - discuss]

Remember, this is an 8 year old game that has already been purchased by 2% of the global population[1]. How many people do you think are gonna go out and buy it - or spend more on microtransactions - because it loads faster?

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/09/take-two-ceo-grand-theft-aut...

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by Voloskaya on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:18PM (#26482273)
> How many people do you think are gonna go out and buy it [...] because it loads faster

Probably not a lot, although this game is still selling at a staggering 20M copies a year, so there is probably something to be said here.

> How many people do you think are gonna [...] spend more on microtransactions - because it loads faster?

Probably a lot. GTA is raking an enormous amount of cash from microtranscations, more than 500M$ a year and it is still growing. That 2% of the population already bought the game is irrelevant, what really matters is what percentage of the current player base will come back, or simply play more thanks to this patch? Even if you think it's just 1%, that's a huge boost in mostly recurring revenues, and I would bet hard that there isn't just 1 gamer over 100 that would be bothered by 3-7 minutes loading time to the point of not (or barely) playing anymore, I know I cannot stand that.

You can also do a search on the GTA Online subreddit for anything related to loading complaints, you will drown in results.

So yes, I think this is worth a fuck ton of money.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by jfrunyon on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:34PM (#26482521)
> is still selling at a staggering 20M copies a year

Looking at their 2020 sales numbers and assuming they will be the same in 2021 is a very bad idea....

> That 2% of the population already bought the game is irrelevant

You have a very strange definition of irrelevant.

> what really matters is what percentage of the current player base will come back, or simply play more thanks to this patch

Indeed, that is what really matters. That was kinda the point of my whole comment.

Your own point, that it's making so much money despite the loading times, is the problem with that theory. If people were so upset by the loading times - why did people keep buying and playing the game so much?

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by Voloskaya on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:41PM (#26483421)
> Looking at their 2020 sales numbers and assuming they will be the same in 2021 is a very bad idea....

Look at that number how you want, they are selling more now than ever, and even if we assume that 2021 will be equal to their worst year, that's still 10M copies of the game. Do you really think that single improvement won't be responsible for an increase of sales of more than 0.0033%?

> Your own point, that it's making so much money despite the loading times, is the problem with that theory. If people were so upset by the loading times - why did people keep buying and playing the game so much?

You seem to be treating "people" as if we are talking about a single person. People are not a coherent set, some have better hardware and have a loading time of 1 minute, some just like the game so much that they are willing to deal with 7 minutes of loading time, and some are so annoyed by that they stopped playing or only bother launching the game if they have more than 1h to play.

The fact that the game is making a ton of money today does not mean it can't make more tommorrow, and it does mean than even incremental improvements are now worth a lot: any improvement that result in 1% more play time probably translate almost directly into 1% more microtransactions. For those people that had 7 minutes of loading time, even if we assume a generous average continuous play time of 2 hours that is already +6% playtime.

If it really wasn't worh anything like you are trying to picture, then they wouldn't have bothered rolling out a patch with that change.

Again, just go look on GTA's subreddit, there are tons of post of people complaining that they are giving up on this game because of the loading time, so despite what you say, those people exists, and it's not just 1 guy.

Big software companies routinely invest millions for incremental improvements that are less significant than this, for product that make less money that GTA Online. I think you severely underestimate what this changes mean over that amount of money and such a large potential player base.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by jfrunyon on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @11:01PM (#26499334)
> You seem to be treating "people" as if we are talking about a single person. People are not a coherent set

Nope. We're talking about an extremely large group of people. A few outliers in a sea of lemmings is not relevant.

> Again, just go look on GTA's subreddit, there are tons of post of people complaining that they are giving up on this game because of the loading time, so despite what you say, those people exists, and it's not just 1 guy.

Yes, because people complaining on Reddit obviously means everyone's quitting the game.

It's quite clear that you have no idea how users behave, so... bye :)

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by neals on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:51PM (#26481968)
It's different because Rock Star was doing fine without this guy and they didn't ask him to do anything.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by meowface on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:52PM (#26481200)
Additionally, their bug bounty program, like most/almost all, is designed for reported security-related bugs. They made an exception here, which they had no obligation or expectation to do. I'm sure the modder wasn't anticipating any kind of financial compensation when they embarked on this.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by karaterobot on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:46PM (#26481889)
I agree with you, but for a different reason. I struggle to put a value on how much money he "should" get, since I have no way of knowing how much money his work will save, or make, for Rockstar.

Loading times in GTAO have been slow for years, and despite that it's been hugely successful. People (e.g. me) have bought multiple copies of the game, on multiple platforms, despite knowing it loads slowly in multiplayer. I'm not sure I would have bought more copies, or more DLC, if it were any faster. It's entirely possible that people don't care enough about load times enough to not give Rockstar their money. So how much is it actually worth to them?

I'm not saying $0. I'm not saying $10k. I'm saying I don't know, and I suspect nobody else does either, as of right now. So, for people saying he should get more money, what is the basis for determining that value?

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by jfrunyon on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:05PM (#26482118)
To all the people saying $10k is low... how is $10k low?! Even if you're making $120k/year that's a month's salary. For something he did for his own, personal enjoyment, not expecting to make anything.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by nprz on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:12PM (#26482191)
Considering how much this game made, 10k is nothing.

> Extensively marketed and widely anticipated, the game broke industry sales records and became the fastest-selling entertainment product in history, earning $800 million in its first day and $1 billion in its first three days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_V

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by jfrunyon on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:16PM (#26482238)
Ah. So we're expecting people - rank and file worker bees - to be paid based on how much revenue (not even profit) their employer (or in this case customer) makes, rather than how much value they provide or another sane measure?
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by ryanmcbride on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @04:31AM (#26487970)
You are right on the cusp of realizing that any company making a profit has by definition underpaid its workers for the value created. You are SO CLOSE to figuring out that all profit is stolen from workers. Yes even the "rank and file worker bees" that for some reason you think don't deserve payment in relation to the company's income.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by jfrunyon on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @07:04PM (#26497895)
I realize that. However, I do not run Gamestop, nor any business for that matter. And that still doesn't explain how you expect a company to pay their employees based on revenue, instead of profit or some other measure that wouldn't immediately bankrupt the vast majority of companies. Thanks for playing.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by nprz on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:41PM (#26482633)
Significantly improving the loading time, an allegedly huge gripe for many players of the game, and given no other dev was capable of improving the load time, that is a huge amount of value provided. And yes, given how successful the game was Rockstar should provide him with a larger reward.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by hartator on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:56PM (#26481258)
Yes, these sweet exposure bucks. /s

I don’t think this point is valid anyway. He got exposure prior to actually got the acknowledgment and money. And he probably won’t have got either if the story didn’t get so viral.

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by howaboutnope on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:21PM (#26481562)
The same would be true if he hadn't received such a low amount, so that's not an argument for it not being low.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by codezero on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:46PM (#26481886)
Rockstar isn’t going to check in on that and correct it if it doesn’t play out that way.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by onlyfortoday2 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:09PM (#26481422)
not really lol
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by spurdoman77 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:46PM (#26481100)
This. People underestimate the value reputation like this can have in the industry. And anyway, the guy is smart, he just has to work on his monetization strategy. The business model where you do things for free in hopes that some kind corporation will pay you just doesnt work.
Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by nawgz on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:57PM (#26481273)
I enjoy the juxtaposition between your comment and the sibling comment wrt “the value of reputation”

Personally I am not so convinced this persons reputation will earn them millions, but I can imagine it to be a reasonably valuable resume point

Re:Rockstar pays $10k to modder who fixed GTA Online loading... by varispeed on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:11PM (#26481440)
You will never get rich working on a salary because of progressive taxation. Different countries are also legislating to tax your business the same as employment on a whole revenue if you want to go self-employed (for example changes in IR35 (it already passed and goes live this April) regulation in the UK will make it next to impossible to run software development as a small company, as all the money you receive from clients will be taxed on the whole without realistic possibility to deduct business expenses. You also have to pay national insurance and employer's insurance that means you'll effectively have to part with over half of the revenue). I think it's a cool entry in the resume, but won't get much money flowing in.