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Re:Justice at Spotify by cratermoon on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @10:29AM (#26477134)
> And Spotify is already paying out 75% of it's revenue to royalty holders

Realize that the royalty holders are not the musicians, but typically the major labels. The musicians get virtually nothing.

Re:Justice at Spotify by disgu on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @10:44AM (#26477353)
The fact that they're showing up at Spotify's offices then shows even more why they're not making money. They seemingly don't understand the business they're in... at all.

They sign shitty contracts that leave them with "virtually nothing" and then complain to someone who is not responsible for them having "virtually nothing".

Re:Justice at Spotify by lux on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:31PM (#26479040)
Unsigned artists don't sign anything with labels but we do agree to Spotify's terms, and those terms take from us and hand it over to major labels.

If a user pays $10/mo and listens to nothing but indie streams, those indies are getting far less than $7.50 (more like pennies) due to the way they calculate their payouts. The major labels pocket the majority of that money.

Spotify have the ability to change this, but not the will to do so, because the major labels own a stake in them. Soundcloud recently launched a payment model that matches pretty much exactly what indies are asking Spotify to do, so we know it's possible but Spotify have been stonewalling indies about how it's too complicated for years.

Re:Justice at Spotify by paxys on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:30PM (#26480884)
If you are an indie artist (no record label deals) and agree to Spotify's terms, how are major labels involved at all? How are they getting the payouts meant for you?
Re:Justice at Spotify by lux on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:33PM (#26481716)
Deezer explains it well here:

https://www.deezer.com/ucps

Re:Justice at Spotify by paxys on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:28PM (#26482419)
Well the size of the pie is still the same in this plan. All it would do is shuffle the money around a little bit, so some artists earn less and others more. The top demand from the linked campaign is for Spotify to pay out >3x what they currently do to artists, which is a completely different (and much more significant) ask.
Re:Justice at Spotify by lux on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:07PM (#26482985)
That's exactly my point. I'm not arguing for the 1c/stream the OP is, rather to follow Deezer's model. Major labels are pocketing money that indies earned (and if you look into it they're not actually paying all of it out to their artists either). With this change indies won't be well paid, but they'll be paid fairly.
Re:Justice at Spotify by number6 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:48PM (#26481124)
and why sign a deal or agree to terms that you don't agree to? Just don't go to Spotify?
Re:Justice at Spotify by lux on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:32PM (#26481706)
Tell that to listeners. Many artists don't list themselves there for that reason, but you're penalized for it because Spotify playlists are increasingly the only way many people access music at all. The do or don't isn't always so black and white.
Re:Justice at Spotify by number6 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:39PM (#26482606)
It's the same problem with the use of WhatsApp. If people want to talk to me there are other means to contact me. It's just that everyone is on WhatsApp. So what choice do I have? Be part of the problem or be excluded from social life.
Re:Justice at Spotify by weddpros on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:14PM (#26480659)
"due to the way they calculate their payouts": yes, I'm sure that's the real issue, but the solution isn't a penny per stream. The solution is definitely to redistribute money according to what people listen to, but I doubt the big labels will accept these terms: they are the ones who negotiated, they are the ones stealing from indies.

Best case scenario: indies will get enough pennies so they stop complaining, big labels will continue as today, Spotify will allocate some of its own money to music creation...

and the problem will remain unfixed at the roots.

remember who forced Spotify and others before it, to negotiate a deal at all cost with the Majors or be declared illegal?

Re:Justice at Spotify by lux on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:40PM (#26481826)
I totally agree, the penny per stream focuses entirely on the wrong thing, further entrenching the real issue by derailing the whole discussion. It also makes it less likely the real issue will be taken as seriously later on after we've just "cried wolf" over this one.

On the plus side, services like Soundcloud and Deezer are adopting the payment scheme that is the solution to this, which opens a potentially more promising avenue through which to pursue the issue ("if they can do it, why can't you?").

Re:Justice at Spotify by afavour on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:15PM (#26478807)
> They sign shitty contracts that leave them with "virtually nothing" and then complain to someone who is not responsible for them having "virtually nothing".

I guess that's what you have to do when you're powerless. Record labels force you into shitty contracts. They have the power. Who has power over the record labels? Spotify.

Re:Justice at Spotify by Hamuko on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:20PM (#26478889)
>Who has power over the record labels? Spotify.

What power does Spotify have over record labels?

Re:Justice at Spotify by tschwimmer on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:53PM (#26479401)
Distribution tends to be the hardest part of any supply chain and it doesn't seem like music is any different. Spotify owns distribution and has almost no competitors anymore (either online or offline) and the future is very clearly streaming. So the labels will end up depending on Spotify for revenue. In 2018, streaming revenue accounted for half of all label revenue[0], and that will only increase.

[0] https://mashable.com/article/major-music-labels-19-million-p...

Re:Justice at Spotify by Hamuko on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @01:02PM (#26479580)
>Spotify owns distribution and has almost no competitors anymore

According to the statistics I have, Spotify has 34% market share while Apple Music has 21%, Amazon Music has 15% and others have 30%. That's hardly "no competitors".

Re:Justice at Spotify by Orphis on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @01:31PM (#26480025)
Spotify doesn't own any distribution. The labels do, and they could just not renew their contract and move to a competitor's service at a whim, destroying the company (who wants a service where 1/3 of the artists are not available?).

They have the biggest share currently, but they're never safe.

Re:Justice at Spotify by core-questions on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @11:59AM (#26478542)
> They seemingly don't understand the business they're in... at all.

Do you know any musicians? Like, real musicians, for whom music is their life and their life's work, not dabblers?

Typically these are not shrewd business types. They don't hold a lot of negotiating power; if they're lucky enough to get a chance with a label deal they often don't push back on the terms very much at all. Labels are notoriously predatory in this regard, particularly mainstream large companies.

All they want is a fair shake. They see themselves and their fellow artists being screwed continually, while people that have nothing to do with their hard work, long nights, and passionate effort make money off their backs. For every artist that learns, there are ten more willing to take their place just for a tiny sliver of a chance at popularity.

The solution here is to do whatever we want to continue the slow work towards destroying mainstream labels. Indie labels still offer a reasonable value proposition in terms of the promotion and recording work they do in exchange for a share of the proceeds; mainstream labels don't. Like most media industries, they're headed by parenthetical elites, cosmopolitan types who have no loyalty to anything but profit, and will squeeze out every drop no matter the impact to the actual working artists.

Fuck 'em. Don't listen to mainstream music. Support indie artists and labels; buy direct wherever possible. If anything, the protest should be to make it trivial to directly host your music with Spotify for a nominal hosting fee, so that all revenue can go direct to the artist, rather than having to go through a 3rd party service.

Re:Justice at Spotify by RHSman2 on Thursday March 18, 2021 @03:13AM (#26500300)
Think you got down voted as you were actually caring about people and not discussing the ins and outs of tech and pricing structure theory. #sadness
Re:Justice at Spotify by robbyking on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:28PM (#26478997)
I think this is the main thing most music fans (and young musicians) are forgetting: historically, musicians have never made money off of album sales, labels have. Musicians make the bulk of their money from touring and merchandise.

Steve Albini does a good job of breaking it down here: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music.

FTFA:

> For the average band, a $250,000 advance (in 1993 dollars) is distributed like this:

> Record company: $710,000

> Producer: $90,000

> Manager: $51,000

> Studio: $52,500

> Previous label: $50,000

> Agent: $7,500

> Lawyer: $12,000

> Band member net income each: $4,031.25

Re:Justice at Spotify by meddlepal on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @01:03PM (#26479591)
Historically this model made a lot of business sense... it was hard to distribute before the internet. The record company took the product and marketed and sold it to a broader audience than the artist or band would ever be able to reach on their own. The artist in turn collected the money on the live performances which, if there product was successful, would yield good returns.

I don't know if it makes nearly as much sense in a world where you can just upload your music to YouTube and do direct marketing via Twitter/FB/TikTok.

Re:Justice at Spotify by conradfr on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @01:12PM (#26479729)
After a pandemic year one might see the problem.
Re:Justice at Spotify by Hamuko on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @10:38AM (#26477255)
Yeah, but that's not Spotify's problem to fix.
Re:Justice at Spotify by antihero on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @10:31AM (#26477156)
Isn't that a problem generally in the music industry?
Re:Justice at Spotify by metajack on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @10:38AM (#26477261)
Music rights are split into two traditionally, the songwriting copyright and the mechanical reproduction right. Previous to the internet, media sales mostly went to the labels who held hte mechanical rights and songwriting copyright was earned directly to the artist. So if you bought a CD the label gets paid, if you play a song on the radio an artist gets paid.

The music industry lawyers were incredibly smart when they passed the DMCA back before online music was much at all, and got internet streaming defined as mechanical reproduction so they got dealt in on streaming.

ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC, et al, which give large blanket licenses to cover most copyrights for songs charged well known quantity for licenses, and early music streaming services paid those. Harry Fox (at least at the time) was the clearing house for mechanical rights and there was actually no set rate or anything. DMCA created a compulsory license that Harry FOx would have to give, but the rates were not known at the time, so everyone was getting VC funding without knowing what anything would cost.

That rate is probably much higher than the songwriting royalties, so the music industry has succeeding in getting ahold of most of the money in a new format that was poised to benefit the artists directly.

I guess we should just be glad it didn't happen like video streaming and there are actually rights clearing houses so companies like Spotify and others can make compelling streaming services with very large catalogs, unlike the city-state video steaming where you need 3-4 services combined to get access to most of the mainstream stuff.

Re:Justice at Spotify by bogomipz on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:32PM (#26484609)
>" Previous to the internet, media sales mostly went to the labels who held hte mechanical rights and songwriting copyright was earned directly to the artist."So if you bought a CD the label gets paid, if you play a song on the radio an artist gets paid.

This is not correct. Mechanical royalties have always belonged to the songwriter. A record label pays mechanicals to a songwriter's publishing company who then passes it on to the songwriter. When a record label sells a record that contains a song an artist owns the copyright to the record label must pay that songwriter a mechanical royalty. When that songs is played on the radio at least in the US the songwriter gets a performance royalty. The songwriter gets paid a royalty in both cases. The label as a mechanical license holder is obligated to pay out a mechanical royalty.

https://www.bmi.com/news/entry/Understanding_Mechanical_Roya...

Re:Justice at Spotify by lukeh on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @02:02AM (#26487136)
Perhaps the GP meant to identify the two rights as the right to reproduce the composition (mechanical) and the master right. The royalty on streaming services for the former is even smaller than the latter.
Re:Justice at Spotify by rsstack on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:23PM (#26478929)
Can you, or someone, share a source for the first paragraph? It completely changes my perception of music royalties and I'd like to be sure before I repeat it :)
Re:Justice at Spotify by bogomipz on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:46PM (#26484743)
You want to read up on music publishing as well as royalties[1][2]. It's important to understand both and it's hard to discuss one without the other. But basically if you understand the these two subject you will understand to a very large degree how the music business works. In the record label model of the music business a label advances you money to pay for your recording and advances you money to pay for your music's promotion(videos, tour support etc.) Before an artists sees a single cent of money from album sales they need to pay the label back all of the money the label advanced them. These advances are paid back via mechanical royalties. It is not until a label recoups every cent from the artist that the artist begins collecting royalties. This is how a lot of artists can sell a bunch of records and yet end up in debt to the record label. S

[1] https://soundcharts.com/blog/how-the-music-publishing-works

[2] https://soundcharts.com/blog/music-royalties

Re:Justice at Spotify by bzbarsky on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:39PM (#26481807)
https://www.royaltyexchange.com/blog/mechanical-royalties seems like a decent explanation, though I'm not an expert in this area...
Re:Justice at Spotify by MomoXenosaga on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:35PM (#26479090)
Well musicians do voluntarily sign the contracts with major labels. And they do get payed for it.

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/07/943818966/bob-dylan-sells-son...

Re:Justice at Spotify by johbjo on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:51PM (#26479373)
The three or four major media companies/rights holders correspond to roughly 75% of streams on Spotify, and probably the entire catalogue of music pre 2010. This gives them the bargaining power to influence playlists, recommendations, and so on. This is what they mean by payola. They can use this to launch new artists.

Independent artists don't like this.

Re:Justice at Spotify by bogomipz on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:13PM (#26484432)
There is no such thing as a "royalty holder." Record labels are copyright holders. The record labels pay out royalties. Royalties are paid to performers, songwriters and publishing companies. For streaming the record label pays two types of royalties - a mechanical royalty and a performance royalty.