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Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by mey on Friday February 26, 2021 @04:39PM (#26280140)
Every-time this comes up, I feel compelled to bring up Mazda's stance since at least 2019 to purge touch screens from their cars.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...

Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by rsj_hn on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:33PM (#26280657)
I'm really impressed with Mazda, they seem to be staying on the right side of several trends where the industry is going in the other direction. They still make cars that are a bit more responsive whereas the industry is making either luxury floaters or crazy horsepower monsters. Good handling, they avoid CVT and have a very practical approach to tech. If anyone is a fan of MotoMan, he's done some cool deep dives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMke4Fl4gyw

(Sorry if this sounds like an ad, I'm not affiliated with them but have been scouting for a car recently.)

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by justintoon on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:19PM (#26281419)
I drive a base model Mazda 3 which has needed no major repairs whatsoever and runs like a top. Meanwhile my wife drives a Nissan Murano (by all accounts a much “nicer” car) and we had to effectively replace the entire steering system at a cost of several thousand dollars.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by benhurmarcel on Saturday February 27, 2021 @06:19AM (#26284106)
> they seem to be staying on the right side of several trends where the industry is going in the other direction

Except electric cars. They have been avoiding doing anything electric for years, pushing ICE instead.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by mey on Saturday February 27, 2021 @12:22PM (#26286310)
Yeah, the most they have done is a capacitor attached to an oversized alternator for regenerative braking. They have pushed ICE pretty far out there with skyactiv-x but they aren't bringing it to the US market soon. It's over in Europe for now. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339942/mazdas-gasoline-...
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by katbyte on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:18PM (#26281007)
have a 20 year old mazda miata that has been abused and needed next to no work, drives super well still. Next car would be a mazda but i want a manual truck to offroad in so i'm going toyota.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by rsj_hn on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:24PM (#26281445)
You have a gem! Congratulations! But how is it for daily driving?
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by supersour on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:50PM (#26281632)
I have a 29 year old Mazda miata (it's older than I am FYI) and it's been really great! I drive it year round in pretty harsh winters and I find it no less capable than the econobox I used to drive.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by culopatin on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:12AM (#26285296)
1989 Miata checking in. I drove it daily for 2 years. Now I have a newer car and I still pick to drive the Miata every time I’m alone or I’m not going to Home Depot (I’ve taken it to Costco though with great success).

I’m getting a bunch of turbo components tomorrow so that may change things.

The only things I’ve HAD to repair are... the top. $250 and 4hs later I have a new one on that’s been great. Everything else has been track oriented upgrades and tinkering out of boredom. It’s even running on an old Megasquirt ECU I put together as a teen, so it’s not even Japan reliable, and it’s still more reliable than many of my friend’s cars.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by katbyte on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:37PM (#26289891)
Fantastic, and great on gas. I would keep it around for city driving but as I live in a downtown core it just doesn’t make sense.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by andrepd on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:09PM (#26280941)
> they avoid CVT

Is that a good thing?

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by rsj_hn on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:52PM (#26281639)
I don't know about "good" or "bad", but they tend to be less responsive and create more of a spongy, floaty feel. In terms of creating a more connected driving experience, the best would be either manual or dual clutch systems. Obviously you can create good or bad transmissions in all of these categories and you may prefer a softer ride - there are customers who pay a lot of money for a softer ride or even be driven along, it just depends on what you want.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by sojournerc on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:21PM (#26281023)
Good question. I have a CVT on a 2011 Subaru with ~100k miles, and never had an issue with it.

It still has a manual mode, even paddle shifters, but in regular drive, the lack of hard shift is really pleasant.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by formerly_proven on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:09PM (#26281360)
> but in regular drive, the lack of hard shift is really pleasant.

I sometimes drive an US-designed car with, I assume, an US-designed automatic transmission (traditional planetary sets + torque converter) and I was actually surprised it doesn't shift very smoothly, worse than a good driver on a manual and much worse than dual-clutch transmissions. With the latter it's pretty much impossible to tell when it is shifting if you cannot hear the motor rev.

(When you switch that car to 4L... oh dear, every shift feels like a learner driver learning to shift with the entire car jerking around. Everyone nods in approval!)

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by rsj_hn on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:11PM (#26281743)
> I sometimes drive an US-designed car with, I assume, an US-designed automatic transmission

regular Automatic transmissions (not CVT) have been commoditized and are usually subcontracted out to dedicated vendors that make transmissions and sell them to auto manufacturers all around the world, so the nationality of the car vendor isn't going to tell much about transmission quality.

For example, the largest market share of car automatic transmissions belongs to (Japan based) Aisin, which sells transmissions to Ford, Toyota, BMW, Skoda, Chevrolet, Suzuki, Volvo, Hyundai, and many others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aisin_transmissions

A lot of the bus and truck transmissions are made by (US-based) Allison and they are sold all over the world and have the largest share in duty engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Transmission

There is large variability in perceived transmission quality, depending on everything from how the software controls it to form factor (real wheel or front wheel) to issues of reliability and build quality, but there are excellent US transmission vendors as well.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by cowkingdeluxe on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:06PM (#26281349)
They added a fake hard shift on outbacks newer than that. I've had a 2010 (first CVT), 2011, 2013 and 2018.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by ogre_codes on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:11PM (#26282265)
If you value fuel economy, CVT is good. If you value driving performance, it is bad. Choose one.

(Or just buy electric and don't worry about fiddly transmissions)

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by rsj_hn on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:50PM (#26288496)
Even in the world of PEV there is a trade off between fuel economy and performance, so this has nothing to do with transmissions.

The fact that you use energy stored as electricity does not get around the laws of inertia or air resistance -- accelerating a mass quickly will always require more energy than accelerating it slowly. And in the PEV world, since re-charging can take an hour instead of a minute, the consequences of draining the battery more quickly are going to be more of an annoyance.

Transmissions come up in that this is how some automakers meet efficiency requirements -- by taking away some control over acceleration from the driver by using a transmission that is programmed to shift gears in the higher rev ranges, with no manual override. But this makes the car less responsive.

Here, Tesla's brilliance shines, not because it doesn't have a transmission -- they can and do put in software that limits acceleration, so they could have done the same thing to improve range, but onlike others that improve efficiency by making the car less responsive to the driver, they improve efficiency by having a more efficent engine or a lighter car, while keepig the car very responsive to the driver. The real brilliance of Tesla is in building cars that are fun to drive (read, responsive), and indeed most of the innovation of electric cars that has been successful in the market was based around improving acceleration and adding more torque, making the car more fun to drive. That's why models like the Tesla or the old Ferrarris with electric assist are much loved by drivers, even though models like the Leaf and Bolt are not. Drivers care about good handling.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by ogre_codes on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:42PM (#26290175)
> Even in the world of PEV there is a trade off between fuel economy and performance, so this has nothing to do with transmissions.

CVTs are not efficient because they control the rate of acceleration. You can over-rev a CVT and get as much acceleration as your engine (and it's transmissions losses) will allow. CVTs are efficient because they allow the engine of the car to operate in its most efficient power range more of the time.

EVs run into this same issue, but the way Tesla anyhow solved for it is pretty wild. Dual motor Teslas have 2 different motor/ drivetrain gear ratios. The rear wheels are most efficient at lower speeds and when you are driving slower, they get most of the power. The front wheels are most efficient at higher speeds and when you are driving faster, they get the most power. This way the most efficient motor is always doing the most work at any time. This is likely why the AWD Teslas have so much more range than the single engine/ RWD models.

There is a good article talking about EV transmissions here, the bit about Tesla's 2 gear ratio setup is about 12 paragraphs in.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/22/ev-transmissions-are-co...

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by nerdponx on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:17PM (#26280989)
I can't speak for nowadays, but my experience with early non-hybrid CVT vehicles was negative. I test drove a Nissan Versa and the engine was sitting at around 4k RPM doing 60 MPH on the highway. It was very loud for a small hatchback, and generally unpleasant to drive.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by sebastien_b on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:08PM (#26290039)
That’s what I used to have (2008) and it wasn’t like that for me.

Your experience sounds like the overdrive was off. Or the transmission was dying/defective.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by nerdponx on Saturday February 27, 2021 @11:01PM (#26290566)
I think I tested the Versa in 2008. I specifically raised this concern with the car salesman who was sitting in the passenger seat; he insisted it was normal. Weird!
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by sebastien_b on Saturday February 27, 2021 @11:53PM (#26290788)
Yeah weird, cause mine ran in the normal RPM range at those speeds.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by sebastien_b on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:23PM (#26281037)
I had a CVT car, and that never gave me any problems (over 180K kms).

My newer car has a traditional automatic - the only reason I didn't go for a CVT is simply that the model I have doesn't come with that option (otherwise I would have opted for it).

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by philsnow on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:00PM (#26281680)
They're supposed to be more fuel-efficient, I guess? I've only driven one or two, but my perception is that they're slower to respond.

My minivan has a 9-speed automatic transmission and the engine spends 99% of its time either off, idling, or around 1.9k rpm, so it seems like it's efficient enough.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by OneLeggedCat on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:16AM (#26285324)
No. It's like when some some old farts try to tell you that 24fps is just great for movies. The reality is only that people are accustomed to the lower temporal quality of 24fps movies from childhood onward, and don't like the change to something better.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by P_I_Staker on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:28PM (#26281470)
They're a very unpopular feature among users. I'm not super thrilled with mine, and wouldn't mind going back.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by JoBrad on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:10PM (#26281737)
Unless you have some evidence proving me wrong, my feeling is that the people who don’t like them are very loud is saying so, while the rest of us simply focus on other things. Some manufacturers like Nissan just did a really bad job tuning their CVTs at the beginning, but I hear this has since been addressed. I never had a problem with the CVT in other vehicles.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by OneLeggedCat on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:19AM (#26285343)
Exactly. Properly implemented CVT's are superior in most ways.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by mrtksn on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:01PM (#26280373)
I just wanted to see how the things evolved and apparently in 2021 some new Mazda's DO HAVE touchscreen infotainment: https://youtu.be/eIfP2vcZD7M?t=582

Other Mazda's don't: https://youtu.be/z5k5Oqfyn2Y?t=510

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by feross on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:37PM (#26280680)
On the Mazda MX-5 2020 the touch screen only works when the car is not in motion. When in motion, you have to use their "Command Controller" knob that's near the shifter.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by ryandrake on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:23PM (#26281039)
This is an annoying misfeature because it doesn’t allow the passenger to manipulate the touchscreen either. I hit this all the time. We get started with my wife driving and I want to input the address or browse to some music but NOPE you need to be fully stopped for even the passenger to do anything. Thoroughly stupid.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by jessaustin on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:20PM (#26281795)
Every new car has a sensor in the passenger seat to turn on the passenger airbag when it's occupied. It would be no issue to also turn on the touchscreen.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by mey on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:37PM (#26281892)
This is how my 2016 CX-5 operates. The touchscreen aspect stops working above 5 mph. It does suck if you have a passenger co-pilot, as it's impossible to enter detailed nav directions without stopping. Thankfully Mazda offered an Android Auto/Apple Carplay upgrade after manufacture that allowed you to use better voice control then their built in solution. (Touch in Android Auto is entirely disabled even when the car is stopped)
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by thedrbrian on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:29PM (#26280615)
That’s because the 6 is the old/current 6 with the old nav/infotainment whereas the CX-5 is new. Once the new generation mazda6 comes out I assume it’ll get updated to the new dash/infotainment.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by seniorgarcia on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:39PM (#26280711)
As someone currently shopping for a new car, the current CX-5, the current MX-5 and the Mazda 6 come with a touchscreen setup.

*EDIT: Also all the VW models in the Golf and Passat Range come with a touchscreen, the low-end Fiats are the same, Mercedes is no different, even the low-end at Dacia comes with a touchscreen. If you can find a car manufacturer that does not think a touchscreen is the way to go, I'll be surprised.

\EDIT2: Since I looked at everything else in my neighborhood as well... Audi does a touchscreen center console for everything. You can get the Renault Twingo without any electronics but if you take the climate control you also get a touch screen. Honda and Hyundai will include a touch screen with everything as well. The only cars I got offered without a touchscreen center console is the Mitsubishi outlander and there it is only 1 model.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by olyjohn on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:48PM (#26281216)
All new cars are mandated to have back-up cameras. This means they have to put a screen in the car for every new car. It probably doesn't add much to make it a touch screen... but the irony here is that we added backup cameras for safety, and now we've got a dangerous distraction piece on the car.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by hiisukun on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:44PM (#26281922)
My mazda 3 has a touchscreen too - but its disabled while the car is moving. Every function is quite accessible from the physical controls, and they're in a good location, good tactile feedback and different sizes of buttons to knobs etc.

It is clearly designed away from "touchscreen", but if you are parked it functions fine with touch.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by CraigJPerry on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:25PM (#26280592)
That's optional touch - which is ideal, best of both worlds but there is a BMW iDrive still controller between the passengers for the screen, you can see it later in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=582&v=eIfP2vcZD7M&feature=yo...
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by heywire on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:38PM (#26281546)
I love my Mazda CX-5. The navigation wheel works wonderfully, even with Apple CarPlay. I definitely miss it when I drive my wife’s Hyundai Tucson.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by not_knuth on Friday February 26, 2021 @04:45PM (#26280215)
Great thread. Looks like HN has decently chewed on this topic before. Thanks for sharing!
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by hyperrail on Friday February 26, 2021 @04:57PM (#26280333)
According to Consumer Reports, Mazda's non-touch-screen infotainment controls are actually not good at all:

* https://www.consumerreports.org/infotainment-systems/how-to-...

> Despite selling some vehicles with high ratings in other categories, Audi, Honda, Infiniti, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Subaru, and Toyota all joined Lexus at the bottom of our satisfaction ratings when it came to ease of use for in-car electronics.

* https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/mazda/3/2021/road-test/ (requires subscription):

> The infotainment screen mounted in the center of the dash isn’t a touch screen; users must adjust audio and infotainment features using steering wheel controls or the rotary controller and buttons mounted between the front seats. Unfortunately, some steering wheel controls are hard to see and difficult to use because they have silver text on a silver background. The rotary knob and buttons in the center console are also challenging to use since many of the buttons are difficult to see at a glance, and the lack of an easy-to-decipher menu structure forces drivers to spend too long looking at the controls instead of the road.

As can be seen from your first link, the main control method is a jog-wheel knob at your knee next to the gear shift lever, mounted facing up, so you turn it left and right to select things and push in to "click"/confirm. CR says that with this control system, and the menu hierarchies that Mazda's UI makes you go through, you end up more distracted than with the better touch-screen systems they review.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by pdimitar on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:24PM (#26280581)
That X is not good does not automatically mean that Y is better.

Touchscreens in cars are really distracting. I had to yell to an acquaintance of mine once -- they were trying to change the music while going with 40-50km/h in a suburban area and she almost hit a dog. The reason? Cheap touchscreen that doesn't register half the touches. But it wouldn't matter for the poor creature that gets one ton of steel driven through them.

Maybe the car infotainment system's controls belong to the steering wheel? Or a bunch of extra levers? Who knows, but IMO the touchscreens aren't that good as well. The jury is still out on what's the best way of approaching this.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by ntsplnkv2 on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:21PM (#26281022)
The problem is that basic controls got moved into touch screen interfaces.

Before I could turn my fan speed knob by feel. It was "stepped" so I knew what level it was at when I moved it, if it was min/max. Same with heat and cool. Knob to adjust what vents. All could be done with eyes on the road.

Now? OK you can change climate control, go into touch screen, open up controls, tap to change 5 times to different vents, some crap slider to control fan speed, all requiring to look in order to see where to touch. The lack of tactile feedback just sucks.

On a phone yea sure it's great because I'm looking at it when I use it - it's function is to look at it. Not in a car.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by xmprt on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:55PM (#26281263)
A major issue is that the UI of touchscreens is horrible and the hardware used is so slow that it makes the experience dangerously bad. I don't have issues using the Maps app on my phone even though that's a touchscreen. I also don't have issues playing music through my phone (accessibility settings help a lot with this). On the other hand, every time I've had to use a car touchscreen I make sure I'm not moving because I have to look at the screen to find the button location and then keep looking for another second to make sure the press was registered.
Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by thesuitonym on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:03PM (#26280391)
The idea is right, but the implementation doesn't seem great. I can't judge it fairly, because I've never used it, but based on your description, and the article, I completely believe that the way Mazda is going about this is horrible.

>Mazda is looking to add more simple, tactile controls into the cars. A quick tilt of the volume knob to the right or left goes forward or back single tracks

Ugh, if only there were some kind of dedicated control for some of these things that are being moved out of touchscreens. Something you can just tap on, sort of the way you do with touchscreens, but that never moves or changes, so you can tap it without looking.

Boy whoever invents that will be a billionaire!

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by otherme123 on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:38PM (#26280695)
I have a Mazda, and the system works perfectly. You have to get used to it (maybe a week of use), and after that is like using a trackball. Do you need to look at your mouse to locate the buttons or the wheel? The Mazda knob is exactly the same: left is media, central is home, right is navigation.

Obviously, if you only test drive the car for an hour, you cannot get used to it, and you have to look down. Same as you had to look at your mouse the first time you used it.

Re:In-car touchscreens are dangerous by jjoonathan on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:13PM (#26280479)
Advanced tactile feedback technology!