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Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by zapdrive on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:01PM (#26278440)
This is a mere eyewash to keep your votes in your pocket. If you really think Biden admin is going to have a concrete change in the middle East policy (regarding arms sale, etc.) I have a bridge to sell to you.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Bud on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:04PM (#26278474)
Um, merely declassifying this report already is a major change in US policy. Furthermore, Biden is reportedly refusing to even speak with MBS, as reported in the NY Times article about this:

"Ahead of the report’s release, Mr. Biden spoke to King Salman of Saudi Arabia. Although the official White House description of the call did not say that the two men discussed the report, other officials said the purpose of the discussion was for Mr. Biden to explain why he was releasing the findings and outline the administration’s next steps. The administration has made clear that Mr. Biden will speak only to King Salman, his counterpart as head of state, and will not speak directly to the crown prince.

Whether the new administration’s attempt to bypass the 35-year-old crown prince and deal only with his 84-year-old and often ailing father will succeed remains to be seen."

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by dionian on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:08PM (#26278530)
let's hope they dont screw anything up. we just started solidifying the Abraham accords, to the detriment of Iran and China especially.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by kgog on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:04PM (#26278471)
> The Biden administration has paused arms sales to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates as it conducts a wider review of agreements worth billions of dollars made by the Trump administration, sources familiar with the matter told CNN Wednesday.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/27/politics/us-pauses-saudi-uae-...

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by newacct583 on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:06PM (#26278501)
Simply not lying to us is a very large step in the right direction, though. You don't have to be in the tank for the Biden administration to recognize that it was VERY BAD that the previous administration engaged in (or at least acceded to) a coverup of a state-sanctioned murder.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by objektif on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:49PM (#26279055)
Secret: Obama lied about a lot of things.

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/501365/

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by hourislate on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:06PM (#26278495)
The Biden foreign policy so far is exactly what the Trump policy was. As a matter of fact I would bet it will escalate in violence.

Where is the outrage? All the social media platforms are silent.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by arkitaip on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:08PM (#26278532)
He's only been in power for a month - what do you expect, a miracle?
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Jasper_ on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:11PM (#26278568)
And in that month, Biden's already gave the thumbs up to bombing Syria, killing 17 people.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by cmorgan31 on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:18PM (#26278647)
So complain to Biden, no one is saying we shouldn’t stop bombing people in other countries. It’s also not a shock to anyone in the US that Biden is effectively a conservative to every other western nation. I didn’t put my hopes on him fixing things. I wanted the clown in chief to stop breaking things for four years. If Biden keeps breaking things I’ll vote him out too. I just won’t do it to the benefit of more far right demagogues.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by mindslight on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:39PM (#26278922)
Exactly. I'm a libertarian who had never voted for a major party federal candidate and yet I found myself voting for the conservative option of Biden this time around. I want to go back to hating the government a normal amount. The military-industrial-surveillance complex is evil, but at least it has a vested interest to not wantonly kill half a million Americans.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by ALittleLight on Friday February 26, 2021 @03:07PM (#26279271)
I personally think Trump is dumb, indecent, and a liar - but it's not fair to suggest he's responsible for killing half a million Americans. The US seems to have had a somewhat typical response and outcome to the virus with fewer per capita deaths than Germany, France, UK, Spain, and others[1]. Surely all these countries weren't also run by regimes trying to kill their population.

Trump's opponents didn't seem to be suggesting noticeably better strategies to deal with the virus and Democrat led states don't seem to be handling the virus much better than Republican led states [2].

1 - https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

2 - https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Tarsul on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:21PM (#26280558)
Germany has 80 million people, 70.000 died through covid. US has 320 million (so roundabout 4 times as much), 500k died of covid (so roundabout 7 times as much). Thus, more people per capita died in the US than in Germany. https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.h...
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by perl4ever on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:50PM (#26280803)
Germany, and Europe as a whole, have lower rates, but over 160 million people live in European countries with higher per capita death rates than the US, specifically:

  Gibraltar
  San Marino
  Belgium
  Czechia
  Slovenia
  UK
  Italy
  Portugal
  Montenegro
(from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)

And, do you really think that Belgium has all of whatever bad characteristics you like to apply to the US government? Or is it maybe more a consequence of being a small and densely populated area that people travel a lot to and from, like NYC? It's not as simple as good policy response meaning lower deaths.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by mindslight on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:28PM (#26281462)
Responsibility is shared jointly. If you merely drive the getaway car for a bank robbery in which a bank guard is killed, you yourself are fully on the hook for murder. If Trump had taken Covid seriously and advocated common sense mitigations like wearing masks, socially distancing, and refraining from unnecessary activities, our position would be significantly better. As a public figure, downplaying the problem while advocating irresponsibility is at the very least gross negligence. This puts him on the hook for the entire outcome. I agree many other politicians are responsible for their part as well, but that's besides the point.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by jasonwatkinspdx on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:47PM (#26281936)
While you cannot attribute every single death to the Trump administration, it remains true that in the most critical time period of the virus emerging, they were actively hostile to taking the necessary actions. They continued to be actively hostile to scientific consensus about the virus until removed from power.

The administration was overtly spreading misinformation and speaking against straight up correct medical advice. They made overt statements in national media that assistance vs the virus would be treated as a quid pro quo for political loyalty. They threatened governors that criticized the administration with denial of federal resources in a (&()^) epidemic. You cannot whitewash the blood on their hands.

It was craven politics born of an early idea that the virus would be worst in left leaning coastal cities, and hence would help Trump for re-election. Obviously a virus doesn't give a crap about political parties, so it didn't go that way.

It's entirely reasonable to believe that the number of covid deaths in the US would have been an order of magnitude less with more sober decision making.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by munk-a on Friday February 26, 2021 @03:36PM (#26279567)
I agree with saying that Trump can't be blamed for the existence of the corona virus and a lot of deaths related to it - but there were expert suggestions to shut down travel much earlier and more aggressively than what Trump did and, honestly, the US per-capita deaths are quite high - we're somewhere in the top ten globally - so I don't know if it's fair to say that Corona virus' extreme impact is entirely disconnected from Trump either.

I prefer to focus on more concrete and demonstrable failures but I think in a few years when we can really parse this data we'll find that Trump's actions directly led to hundreds of thousands of avoidable deaths... but, I'm not certain.

The biggest failure I think we pretty clearly made in handling the virus was not quickly building up some nationalized vaccine production facilities. If ever there was a time for some good old state capitalism it was this pandemic and a few hundred million invested in setting up facilities we know we'll eventually need would have paid off handsomely.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by hourislate on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:14PM (#26278610)
You probably mistaken my comment as anti Biden instead of anti involvement. I predict the Biden administration as the Obama administration did, will in fact escalate every conflict we are currently engaged in. Lets wait a little and see what happens, I hope I'm wrong.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by duxup on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:03PM (#26278450)
Middle East nations have at least since the Obama era largely been left to their own devices (more than in the past), and operate happily that way. They're not looking to the US or anyone for approval.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by hourislate on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:09PM (#26278545)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/peace-p...

Almost six years later, Mr Obama has approved military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and now Syria.

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (BIJ) estimates the Obama administration has launched more than 390 drone strikes in five years across Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia – eight times as many approved during the entire Bush Presidency.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by duxup on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:11PM (#26278573)
That doesn't seem to relate to what I said.

Obama making decisions on his own doesn't have anything to do with middle east nation's interest in US approval for their own actions.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by hn8788 on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:21PM (#26278696)
Killing people in other countries because their government isn't doing enough to fight extremism doesn't sound like they've been "left to their own devices".
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by duxup on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:24PM (#26278738)
"left to their own devices" doesn't mean that the US (or anyone else) would be uninvolved in things.

I'm addressing what those middle east nations choose to do and who they consult with, get 'approval' from / etc.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Grustaf on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:26PM (#26280599)
> "left to their own devices" doesn't mean that the US (or anyone else) would be uninvolved in things.

What? That's exactly what it means.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Shivetya on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:21PM (#26278691)
and less than a hundred days into his Presidency Biden is bombing the Middle East; a guy who claimed he would use military power responsibly and his supporters mocked Trump supporters that claimed otherwise.

The simple fact is we have very little justification to criticize the actions of other nations when we cannot even go an Administration without attacking another nation.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Chris2048 on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:41PM (#26278948)
1) what makes the bombing a non-responsible use of military power?

2) Why is the US not allowed to "attack[] another nation"? esp given it was a response to attacks on American/coalition personnel?

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by the_reformation on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:13PM (#26278593)
The series of Arabic states opening diplomatic relations with Israel was definitely American-led.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Animats on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:28PM (#26278786)
Not clear. Israel getting along with the small rich Arab states probably reflects a shared interest in making money.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by duxup on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:33PM (#26278861)
There's a lot of indications of many of what seem like one off actions taken by Israel that might have had cooperation from other Arab states that have an interest in a group or etc.

Israel's usually pretty opaque military and other actions allow for a lot of unexpected partnerships.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by flyinglizard on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:42PM (#26278977)
Money is not the main issue. Iran is, and the Gulf states made the leap when they could maximize their ROI, just before the US elections.

The Abraham accords are the legacy of the Trump admin and I think it’s a very good one.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by duxup on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:18PM (#26278650)
Any influence /= as much influence as before / countries looking to the US when they take their own actions.

As alliances shift in the middle east it's not surprising that Israel would be involved. Relations / tensions are pretty wild in the Middle East. I think 'unlikely' alliances are almost inevitable, and maybe not as unlikely as we think. There area lot of strangely conflicting incentives out there.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by zikzak on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:26PM (#26278757)
Surely, some of it was also political theatre to give the US administration a win in the region (Mission Accomplished, all over again) in exchange for the sale of advanced weapons systems. Just my two cents.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by duxup on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:29PM (#26278805)
Maybe but despite the fact that they might celebrate it... I really doubt the value of "hey someone opened up diplomatic relations with Israel" is all that valuable to a given US politician... same goes with the state that chose to do so.

I think whatever horse trading happened behind the scenes was likely more valuable than PR.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by zikzak on Sunday February 28, 2021 @12:38PM (#26295129)
I don't disagree on the reality, I am just saying that in my personal reading of various subreddits, forums, etc. I have seen countless posts and pundits saying what a great Job Trump and Kushner did on these agreements. It was clearly being used to show off their accomplishments in the region, real or not.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by wavefunction on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:27PM (#26278771)
Two countries is a series? Can't really count Morocco or Sudan as 'Arabic states' unless you're really stretching that definition and it seems you are.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by Grustaf on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:27PM (#26280607)
It's easy to get Morocco to accept Israel when you sacrifice Western Sahara.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by LatteLazy on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:21PM (#26278686)
Sadly I think you're right, there is no sign of a return to the Iran deal even, let alone an actual change of policy there. This is housekeeping at most.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by emilsedgh on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:25PM (#26278746)
As an Iranian (living in US) who follows this very very closely, you are wrong.

There are many signs of Biden administration going back to the deal. They are both dancing around it but there's definitely been a policy change regarding Iran.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by flyinglizard on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:40PM (#26278936)
What are your thoughts on the deal?
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by emilsedgh on Friday February 26, 2021 @04:36PM (#26280105)
It's a good deal for the whole world except for Saudi Arabia's regime, Israeli's hardliners, American Hawks and Iranian hardliners.

For stability of the region, commerce, peace and moderate forces in all parties, it was a good deal.

It wouldn't have resolved all the issues the world has with Iran, but the idea of having a "deal" in place that resolves all issues is childish.

Eg can the US have a "deal" with Saudi in place to resolve all the regional and human rights issues with them? Of course not. But those who argue against the JCPOA claim the US could've had a "deal" with Iran that resolved all issues.

It would've been used to rebuild some trust between both nations and help resolving other issues in long term.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by jasonwatkinspdx on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:43PM (#26281921)
I just wanted to extend word that no matter how comments go on this website, there is a sizable fraction of the US that understand the deal was about creating an imperfect detente to limit the hardliners on various sides, to create space for progress. We'll see how things shake out, but I just wanted to say that there are plenty of people over here to see this in that way.
Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by emilsedgh on Friday February 26, 2021 @09:35PM (#26282124)
I appreciate your understanding.

Although right now the deal is hanging by a thread, I still think its possible that in long term it will be considered a major victory for all parties involved.

The fact that the hardliners couldn't kill it off despite years of effort (while being in power) may be later judged as a strength of it.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by LatteLazy on Friday February 26, 2021 @03:14PM (#26279351)
I hope you're right. Last I heard Biden wasn't willing to lift all sanctions and wanted to return to negotiations. Then there were statements about losing patience...

That's better than nothing I guess. But it's not the "we're back, let's make this work" announcement I'd hoped for.

I'm very supportive of engagement with Iran. In a generation they'll be the main power in the ME. Its time to get on board or be left behind I think. The Saudis are yesterday's news.

Re:US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing by emilsedgh on Friday February 26, 2021 @04:38PM (#26280123)
Again, there's a dance involved. Biden administration gave a lot of positive signs and a lot of carrots. But is also willing to show some sticks. That's understandable in all negotiations.

Both sides are dancing but there have been very positive signs. I expect the parties to return to deal in 2-5 months.