I like the yearly rankings they do over at Reddit to try and find shows I've missed. (example: this years https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/kqnefi/results_...)

It's quite interesting if you look at The Expanse. Started barely top 100, then top 40, then top 20, and now this year people are ranking it #2 all time behind Breaking Bad. Seems like it took a bit for the word to get out about it, but people who take the time to watch it, seem to really enjoy it.

Never heard of those ratings but asking for any kind of recommendation in /r/scifi guarantees you a recommendation for The Expanse. Years of this practice were bound to produce results outside the sub.

I also encourage people to read the books / novellas. They are excellent.

As a counterpoint, while I consider the shows to be oscillating between enjoyable and watchable (though admittedly only barely if we are talking about season 3), I found the books to be completely unreadable (well the first one at least - I'm not a masochist. I stoped there).

Abraham and Franck's prose is at best unremarkable when it's not plain bad and they have a bad habit of relying on characters acting, well, out of character and contrary to their interest when the story is stuck (which actually happens quite often and is something the show can't entierely escape sadly).

Season 3 was the absolute pinnacle of the show and some of the best scifi ever on tv. It completely blew my mind, and I’ve watched my share of Star Trek, Stargate, Babylon 5, Farscape, BSG, etc over the years. It completely pays off for the buildup of seasons 1 and 2.

I agree, S03 was awesome, but I'm finding I like S05 even more. I'm really sorry to see Bezos cancel it after next season. I was hoping for many more.

Book 6/season 6 is the end of the "original" Expanse; book 7 takes place decades later. If they want to make books 7-9 into Expanse: TNG they might want to recast the actors. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the novellas made into pseudo-standalone movies.

Rumor is that is exactly what they are planning. A clean "break" at the show level and doing it as two "separate" shows would help simplify marketing and budgeting and contracts, especially with a recast.

This makes perfect sense to me. A time-skip of several decades would be tough to pull off.

I don't see an issue with using the same actors, people seem to live much longer lives anyway and some make-up will make them look older. I really want to watch the last three books as a big budget series. Jeff, if you're reading this, you should have the time and money now to make it happen. Please?

Blue Origin launching a streaming service would be so 2021.

Expanse but actually shot in space

Some of the novellas were actually part of the show.

Canceled it, then resigned as CEO, he knew what he was doing

Expanse enjoys the benefit of tighter plotting, modern special effects, better acting, and an almost total focus on the season's narrative arc as opposed to individual episodic stories (which have only minor world- and character-building). Still, I think B5, despite its many flaws, will always be the definitive TV space opera in terms of narrative arcs. Expanse has a tendency to get preachy, like BSG did, about politics. I found B5 a lot purer and more universal, but maybe that's just my selective memory/recollection.

I wish someone would remake B5 eventually, true to the original but dropping all the unnecessary material (and useless arcs), pulling in the TV movie plots, and addressing the telepath war.

Those other shows? I liked some individual episodes, but I think they're all a step down.

I’ll concede on B5’s story arc and also DS9’s, even if it stole from B5. But I do still think Expanse S3 rivals any season from any other sci-fi show, while allowing that it benefits from the modern tv format and special effects. B5 done today would have been amazing.

> Expanse has a tendency to get preachy, like BSG did, about politics. I found B5 a lot purer and more universal, but maybe that's just my selective memory/recollection

I agree but it's not fair to rate these series on that basis. BSG was really preachy at some points, but they got some of the other things so right, that it doesn't really matter.

> Still, I think B5, despite its many flaws, will always be the definitive TV space opera in terms of narrative arcs.

I think we would agree to disagree. Bears, Beets, BSG

> I wish someone would remake B5 eventually, true to the original but dropping all the unnecessary material (and useless arcs), pulling in the TV movie plots, and addressing the telepath war.

I'm actually curious as to what you think was unnecessary material. There was definitely some in S1, but the vast, vast majority of stuff spanning the first four seasons was important I'd say. Obviously the fifth season was different, but that wasn't really the fault of the show creator.

It was plotted and written in the era where a plot of the week had to carry an entire episode. Main characters can no longer be allowed to get entangled in a non-critical event for a full episode just to reveal something important about them for later. Writers have to be more clever than that. There's no room for "this time on B5, a rebellion/alien/telepath problem/encounter."

With 22-episode seasons like the original, I bet a good writing team could do something like this:

Season 1: building up the world, revealing the Shadows at the end

Season 2: Shadow war

Season 3: proxy wars

Season 4: Loose ends & Consequences, including Thirdspace and the telepath war. If there's enough material, maybe even move the telepath war to a 5th season. I always wanted to see what happened to the Vorlons' favorite telepath.

There should still be room, in seasons 1 and 2 especially, for some cute but essentially irrelevant subplots like Green vs Purple.

Damn, I can't believe I never watched Babylon 5, and I'm a big sci-fi fan. Still not too late, I guess, I rewatched Stargate SG-1 recently and it's just as good as I remember.

I envy you. That you can watch B5 fresh.

It has some dated CGI (Not bad for that time though) and some hammy, exaggerated acting. But the character development and story arc are phenomenal.

You will find many story lines are very topical _now_.

Well ahead of its time.

I agree, and I’m a bit disappointed by season 4 and 5. While they are enjoyable in their style, they are too much character focused compared to the perspective opened previously. Didn’t read the books, hope the story goes back to discovery and exploration after.

This does reflect the books. If they manage to continue, it'll... change in tone. Personally, I feel the material for season 4 and 5 was indeed among the weakest in the books.

I hope that you will continue to watch, so we get to see how they do the rest.

I must admit to having a completely opposite view to yours. I started with the show, and then read the books after having finished season 3. I absolutely devoured them at about 1 book a week until I caught up.

They're also quite different. The difference looks like two different groups of people playing the same published DND adventure: the worldbuilding is the same, the main events are the same, but the characters and their choices are very different, in my opinion (and it makes both the show and the books equally interesting).

And it should be made very clear that both writers of the books (they write under a single pseudonym) are heavily involved in the writing and production of the show. Character and story changes are done to accommodate the TV medium, or to better support a future storyline not originally thought out.

which is what tripped up some viewers with Season 5 as the books its based on were very individual character story driven.

how they handled the Cas Anvar (plays Alex) issue did require a change from the books but they did it at end of season so its not disruptive and gave the character a good exit (which the character deserved, not the actor)

Spoilers follow:

I'm pretty sure that they digitally removed him from some scenes on Luna at the end.

I just watched that and was wondering why they killed Alex. But then remembered there was some kind of scandal with Cas Anvar. Too bad, the character is great in the books, was looking for his deepening relationship with Bobby.

It certainly switches from an almost procedural detective noir in space genre to a more gritty space opera.

One of my preferred parts. Even better that each story arch worked on itself, in the same world, and nicely connected together. And that worked in the books and the show.

During the transition there's an episode or two of glorious Space Gothic Romance as well. The genre shift is very impressive.

Same. Struggling through the 5th season, though.

Feels like it's lost its narrative drive.

I feel that Season 5 works a lot better if are a book reader. I totally get why the shift away from the gates is a bit confusing.

The Expanse was never a planet-of-the-week show. Exploring the impact of the new planets on the solar system and its people is also important.

One thing I'm a bit disappointed is the fact that they drop part of Mars storyline.

I have to second this. The parties motives, Mars and Inaros, make so much sense. Hard to convey that level of detail and complexity in a TV show. They managed to explain most Mars motivation rather well so, in the arc where Bobbie is chasing black marketeers.

I could imagine, so, that season 6 will answer most of these questions.

Yes, S5 is basically only good because of the by now known actors and overall production quality. It's a much less interesting story than any of the previous seasons and keeps rehashing narratives and tropes.

S1 was completely mindblowing, film noir in space in a well fleshed out world and awesome production quality, S2 OK, S3 was a "must see" but then it went downhill.

For what it's worth, every season follows the books pretty faithfully.

Except for a notable character death in Season 5.

MotherF... I just watched the episode. Edit my previous comment to say two notable deaths in season 5 that didn't happen in the books.

Well, after some searching, aparently the actor was accused of sexual misconduct.

And a much more fantastic rescue. Kinda mad that the book rescue wasn't in the show.

But it mostly was, no? Apart from Naomi repeatedly going out of the ship to signal with lights.

Or am I missing something?

* book spoiler *

Bobby riding a missile like a surfboard is much more fantastic that what was in the show. It is one of the "big scenes" that I wanted to see on screen. It is explained in the book that her suit thrusters don't have the range to reach Naomi in time. So she mag boots on to one of the remaining missiles that were orbiting the Razorback (also missing from the show) and Alex flies the missile remotely to Naomi.

It's only cool until you think about the physics of it. Thrust needs to be applied towards the center as mass if you want to move forwards. Apply the thrust off-center and you start spinning. The scenario in the book is a great way to start spinning really fast without going anywhere. You'd need to huddle around the missile to align your own center of mass with it (the thrust vectoring can adjust for minor errors), but that's not very cinematic.

It's been a while since I've read the books, I completely forgot about that (so much so that I have to take your word on it). I do remember the missles though.

While I'm sure they could have CGI-ed it, that rescue might have just been too wild/insane to show on TV (it might cause the casual viewer to think the show is too crazy to continue watching).

I'm the same - loved the first 4 seasons, but season 5 feels slow like they're really dragging things out. Also feel like some of the dialogue and acting are not very convincing. And it almost feels like a series of short stories, instead of one storyline.

Book 5 is pretty disjointed with 4/5 stories happening at the same time. So, your feeling is accurate to the book.

You're not wrong. The parts on Earth from season 5 was from "The Churn", a novella.

The parts on Earth are from book 5. "The Churn" novella is the story of Timmy becoming Amos that happened before Amos was on the Cant.

You're absolutely right.

Ah, I haven't read the books, and didn't even realise the series was based on books until this thread!

For a while I thought this was an unpopular opinion, but now I'm seeing more people agree. Relative to season 1-4, season 5 is extremely anti-climactic and at times even annoying (e.g. the looping Naomi transmission really got on my nerves). It's hard to believe season 6 will be the last after the complete disappointment season 5 has become.

Conversely I see hate for season 4, but I really liked it. I really love plot-lines around mysterious aliens or ancient technology. It's one of the reasons why Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 are some of my favorite Sci-Fi series.

Yeah the 5th season is a struggle for me, too. I stil love watching it but it's a bit slow. It feels it's all character build-up, with little story progression. Amos' prison & planet escape storyline makes no sense in the grand scheme of things. Sure it's a nice story, but it doesn't have much to do with the Expanse universe, the prison/planet escape could've been part of any generic movie, specially because it doesn't really explore the story of Baltimore all that much.

I still enjoy watching it and would've been happy to watch these episodes if the Expanse was like one of the half dozen star trek shows that ran 170-180 episodes each. But not in a 50 episode show like the Expanse is.

It also feels like the character building is a little too late. Exploring Amos' upbringings (maybe 10 minutes before the prison visit after which it's all wiped away) or Naomie being a parent in the second to last season, I don't know. Would've been good to integrate much of that sooner. Feels like we're kind of stuck building up characters as filler to not run out the story too fast. That's okay if it was more spread out over the seasons.

As others have mentioned, it makes more sense in the context of all 8 (eventually 9) books. The show is only around book 5 so far.

Wow really? I love season 5, so much depth to the world building and big actions. If it follows the book it builds to an amazing pay off IMO.

Stick with it! Its building into something magical if it follows the books.

Also, read the books they are incredible!

Unfortunately, Season 6 will be the last Season of the series :( They've stated they are sticking to book 6 and not trying to cram the last 4 books into 1 season. The speculation is there will be "movies" for each of the final 3 books, but that's not confirmed in any meaningful way.

Ok, thanks - I'll give it a shot

I feel the same. I've fallen behind in terms of the episodes being released and don't feel any particular need to catch up.

I'll watch them eventually, but it's just not exciting enough for me to make it a priority.

I’m not a book reader and agree, although I’m only three episodes into season 5.

Amos was one of my favorite characters but am a bit put off by how his role has, to an extent, become fan service.

I appreciate that he’s a tough guy, enjoyed that aspect of earlier seasons, and want more of it. But don’t give me, the viewer, instant gratification just because I want it if it will erode my suspension of disbelief.

Feels like the characters and narratives are trending towards more traditionally defined arcs with characters getting in fights to show the audience they’re invincible or otherwise saved by cheap deus ex machina tricks.

I abandoned the show after season 4. The fourth season was disappointing and sounds like the fifth might be a let down as well. The first 3 seasons were absolutely fantastic.

5th season is based on the 5th book which is easily top 3 of the whole series.

the 4th season and the 4th book are widely considered below average for the series.

if you liked the first 3 seasons, you'll feel right at home with s5.

I disagree. Most of S5 so far has been personal stories, not space opera. I'm still finding it entertaining, but I wouldn't recommend the show to anyone on the basis of season 5.

Just finished the season finale. Keep watching, it’s worth it.

I was bored by the cookie-cutter Scary Alien Machine Planet and weird physics in S4, but season 5 is a great improvement. It brings the story back to Earth and the Rim, with real people making consequential decisions.

Exactly. 4th season felt superfluous/boring. 5th gets back to basics. Maybe a little repetition (razorback, nuke, Mrs.) but it is fun.

That's not at all how I feel, Season 5 is the best of all of them IMO. 4 was definitely a let down but 5 has been fantastic.

Many people have said this, but it really does reflect the book material.

The upside is that we can expect the last season to pick up again.

Fifth one is better then 4th and I would say also better then 3th.

For me 4th was boring and even more disappointing considering that, after all they suffered to open the portal, all that they found was a ruined, minefield piece of shit planet.

Fith is being a little more entertaining but also turning the back to the portal.

Edit: also there's sound in space. IIRC that wasn't the case in the first seasons.

> Edit: also there's sound in space. IIRC that wasn't the case in the first seasons.

I haven't noticed. I usually interpret the sound in space as sound that ship makes inside, the one that came to you through comm or something etc.

Nah, it's systemic. At some moment there were some missiles. There's no way to explain that, unless you believe the missiles make a transmition to the ship that launched them, to say in their noisy missile language that they're pursuing the target :)

Just want to add on that:

Amos: "I'm that guy"

... was the line of all 4 series. Haha. Loved the build up to that moment. standing ovation in the cinema audience kind of a moment

Last nights episode made S5 worth the space-opera vibes. Really happy it’s getting back to sci-fi and hopefully leaving game-of-thrones-in-space behind a bit

If you liked the show I highly recommend the books.

Rich, emotional, textured. More extensive world building.

And somehow made me appreciate the show more.

Yeah, I really enjoyed it even though there were some slower parts like the slugs (and I found the Holden character irritating).

Somewhat tangential, it's wild to me that Devs was suggested alongside The Expanse in that Clubhouse Elon chat. I thought Devs was unwatchable. There's a point in the first episode where they're just saying fibonacci out loud to show how 'smart' they are. I looked up some of the plot after that to see what I was missing and it didn't look like it was going to get better.

Are the protagonists mainly women? I have a hard time relating to shows without male protagonists.

The main protagonist is male but there are plenty of female protagonists as well.

As far as relating goes for most story lines you should be able to relate as much as one possibly could to a space opera.

Protagonist means "the main representative". So there can be only one protagonist.

By the way, it seems to me Expanse does not have a protagonist.

Actually, that's one of the good things about it: everyone's equal. Gender doesn't matter, only the character does. Just as it should be.

I prefer fiction where the women are defined purely in terms of love interests or other traditionally gender specific roles.