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Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by offby37years on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @07:26PM (#25770045)
As a software engineer your leverage should be higher than near any other profession. This is why SV engineers are paid handsomely. Your productive output eclipses that of any profession without force multipliers. Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by burntoutfire on Thursday January 14, 2021 @04:59AM (#25774428)
I think it's just a story that software engineers like to tell themselves to feel better about earning more than almost everybody else. Meanwhile, there are plenty other "force multipliers", who are paid a pittance. Even a cleaner is a "force multiplier" - they enable people not dying from diseases coming from dirt - that's much more in terms of multiplying output than we do (without cleaners, everybody dies and there's zero profit).
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by benhurmarcel on Thursday January 14, 2021 @06:08AM (#25774957)
Salaries are never based on any of those concepts. They are simply determined by how much it would cost to replace you. It doesn't matter that you generate billions if somebody else would accept to do it for less.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by alkonaut on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:46AM (#25772999)
It’s based on value but if my value is X and there are many developers who can do my job for my salary Y then it’s not X but Y that’s the pay.

There is a scarcity of talent here too but in order to take advantage of it you typically have to actively seek higher pay. I just don’t want to switch jobs, it’s not that I don’t want higher pay.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by yulaow on Thursday January 14, 2021 @06:49AM (#25775265)
Based on this premise any teacher should be payed an incredible amount of money considering they are literally creating the bases to allow professionals like us to generate our "force multipliers".
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by wreath on Saturday January 16, 2021 @06:01AM (#25801501)
I absolutely agree that they should be payed the same way as SW.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by hbt on Thursday January 14, 2021 @05:01AM (#25774455)
based on your output and how many people can also create the same output.

that's what drives down the price. as long as other people are willing to create the same output for less money, you will be paid less

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by anoncake on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:29PM (#25771074)
> Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

Why?

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by MAGZine on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:37PM (#25771137)
Because people pay for output, not input. They don't care if you bought a pencil from someone else or grew the tree, made the paint, etc all yourself. They buy a pencil.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by anoncake on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:09PM (#25771362)
That does not answer the question. Why should someone's income depend on their output? Why is that the ethically correct outcome?
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by drdaeman on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:54PM (#25771743)
Because otherwise outputs go down, with people naturally making effort to do whatever it takes to qualify for the best compensation, rather than actually doing something productive (as high outputs is not it). As the result, the whole economy (and thus, society) struggles.

Check history of the Soviet Union - it was a glaring issue there.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by anoncake on Thursday January 14, 2021 @02:22AM (#25773229)
Have you considered that in a discussion about the USA a modern Europe the Soviet Union might possibly be completely fucking irrelevant? But yeah, my bad, I keep being naive and assume that people try to interpret what I say in a reasonable manner instead of shouting COMMUNISM!! SOVIET UNION!!!

Which famously struggled because it didn't overpay its software engineers enough. So instead of doing productive work like optimizing ad impressions and creating DRM they all became garbage collectors and cleaners.

No, I'm not trying to engage in constructive debate right now. Apparently I lack whatever skill is needed to debate liberals without triggering their COMMIE!! reflex.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by dang on Thursday January 14, 2021 @02:57AM (#25773466)
Please stop posting flamewar comments to HN and please don't take threads on generic ideological tangents. We've had to ask you this before.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by drdaeman on Thursday January 14, 2021 @02:29AM (#25773290)
Please keep the discussion civil. I haven't said anything that you imply I had and no one called you a commie (or any other slur) or even used word "communism" at all.

I've just mentioned Soviet Union as prominent and well-documented example. Don't put words I haven't said in my mouth. Thank you.

Heck, this issue is not even specific to communism.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by xyzelement on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:36PM (#25771561)
>> That does not answer the question. Why should someone's income depend on their output? Why is that the ethically correct outcome?

Because anything else is wishful thinking at best and destroys society at worst.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by filleduchaos on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @11:08PM (#25771854)
As opposed to the current system, which is...not destroying society?
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by xyzelement on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:20AM (#25772431)
>> As opposed to the current system, which is...not destroying society?

I guess people can have different definitions of "destroying society."

I grew up in the USSR where you literally lacked physical stuff in your life that people in the rest of the world took for granted decades prior. A huge contributor to that was that people's work was rewarded on a metric other than their productive output, as measured by what society was willing to pay for in the free market.

To put it another way - we need people to produce. And we need them to produce the right stuff. The best system we have to deciding what's right is what other people use their dollars for.

If we paid people on some other metric we'd end up with a lot of bullshit work, no aspirations, and physical shortages.

I am sure your definition differs.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by filleduchaos on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:47AM (#25772593)
> I grew up in the USSR where you literally lacked physical stuff in your life that people in the rest of the world took for granted decades prior.

Define "rest of the world" because for the time period when the USSR was in existence, my part of the world was either actively being colonised or foundering in the neocolonialist wake of independence.

And that's the crux of it, isn't it? The world's foremost capitalist states (and the imperialist states that preceded them and laid the foundation for their current success) aren't less destructive than the USSR or than Maoist China. They simply had/have the dubious luxury of externalising the destruction and misery (and hiding it where it exists at home, in the poor and marginalised). The West built (and still builds) its abundance of "physical stuff" on the sweat, tears and sometimes literally blood of the developing world. Today's "free" market runs on the back of sweatshops, destabilisation and child labour - there has to be inequality and suffering elsewhere for companies to afford to put up the prices that consumers have become entitled to.

But hey, that destructiveness is not in your own backyard, so I suppose it doesn't exist.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by xyzelement on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:31AM (#25772895)
Ma'am, this is a a Wendy's. the question was whether people should be rewarded by the value of their output to which the answer is obviously yes.

I am not sure the crazy town you are taking this to. But in case it somehow helps you understand - the USSR was horrible to its own people and to neighboring countries, forced labor and all, and still wasn't able to provide basic shit to anyone but the party elite.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by concreteblock on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:20PM (#25771450)
Why did you automatically bring "ethics" into this discussion? The person you replied to was probably using the word 'should' in reference to some other objective.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by anoncake on Thursday January 14, 2021 @02:01AM (#25773093)
I automatically bring ethics into this discussion because I try to be a decent human being and actually care about the society I live in.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by concreteblock on Thursday January 14, 2021 @02:25AM (#25773248)
Someone said, roughly, that X should be like Y. You immediately asked them why this was ethically optimal.

To me that seems like a non-sequiter.

There is no reason to suspect that the optimization (with respect to whatever objective you desire, e.g. total happiness) of a large, complex, chaotic, system (such as a society) can be best achieved by using 'ethical correctness' as the only criterion for decision making.

At least, that's my opinion. I hope that doesn't make me an indecent human being.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by winston_smith on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:37PM (#25771568)
Ethically, everyone deserves all the blackjack and hookers they want, because we're all beautiful and precious creatures.

Practically, giving someone a direct incentive to do worthwhile things works out far better than some central planner deciding how much they should produce and how much they deserve. Somehow it always turns out that the central planner deserves way more than everybody else.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by tomcam on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @11:25PM (#25771995)
I’m willing to do without the blackjack but that’s my final offer
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by samtho on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:37PM (#25771130)
Compensation, in a perfect world, should be based on how much value you bring to the company.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by batiudrami on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @11:51PM (#25772189)
It is clear that your perfect world and my perfect world are quite different.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by Der_Einzige on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:11AM (#25772740)
Not again! The labor theory of value is rearing its head out of the grave again! Oh no! /s
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by anoncake on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:06PM (#25771348)
You did not answer the question, you just repeated the initial claim.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by oneplane on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @11:15PM (#25771903)
You seem to be dodging the obvious: the "why" is because a company has no value when you are risk-free and comfortable because it gets nothing from the inputs towards you, only from your outputs. That doesn't mean it is exactly that black-and-white; your input and output are related. Then there is the availability thing; people with skills and experience are not easy to find so you often want to retain them at the company, and compensation is a great motivator.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by offby37years on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:25PM (#25771483)
If you need a hole dug by tomorrow and you have $1k to spend, you can either:

- Pay one person ($1k) with an excavator

- Pay ten people ($100/each) with shovels