hbt
Western media often aligns with Israeli perspectives due to strategic alliances, lobbying influence, and media ownership dynamics, framing Israel’s actions as defensive while sidelining broader Arab or Palestinian views.
Online, pro-Israel narratives are reinforced by organized digital campaigns and moderation practices that shape public discourse. Meanwhile, pro-Palestinian voices lack comparable resources and organization in Western spaces, limiting their visibility. This creates a media and digital environment where Western audiences are exposed to narratives that don’t fully represent the global spectrum of perspectives.
Plain, straightforward speech has immense value. It promotes clarity and honesty, ensuring ideas are communicated without the need for high-EQ code. Restricting political discourse to high-EQ speech to avoid offense stifles genuine expression and hampers robust debate. This not only limits free speech but also degrades the quality of political dialogue, making it more about adhering to social norms than addressing real issues.
We need to value pluralism and strive for inclusivity in our discourse, ensuring that all voices, regardless of EQ, can be heard and respected.
Being a free speech absolutist ensures that all ideas, even those clumsily expressed, get a fair hearing. It fosters an environment where truth and innovation can thrive, unhampered by artificial constraints on how thoughts must be articulated.
Speech shouldn't require constant PR massaging to be accepted / "legal"
Look, I'm not apologizing to a zionist. But I do sincerely apologize for degrading the thread with off-topic stuff. I will do this stuff outside of HN.
>> There's another problem: you've been posting about nothing but this one topic for months. That's not what HN is for >> I know the topic is important... not because those conflicts don't matter (of course they matter, more than basically everything on HN)
Yes, other topics don't seem as important at the moment, so I don't comment.
>> Using HN primarily for political battle and similar conflicts is against HN's rules,
The level of naked censorship, open complicity, and coordinated attacks on this topic make me more angry than I would be otherwise. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/chilling-effect-pro-palestini... (tip of the iceberg)
It "gratifies my curiosity" to understand how power and influence is wielded especially since this topic seems to make it clearly visible to everyone.
This is not treated as a "political battle or similar conflict" in our society nor in the tech community. What is happening is extremely abnormal and revealing.
I understand you have some vision for "what HN is for" that you keep purposefully vague ("anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity").
I find nothing wrong with this topic being my exclusive topic. It's what I happen to be curious about at the moment and I explained why.
Are you evil yet?
We cannot question their allegiance?
If an Iraqi did the same thing when the U.S invaded Iraq, you wouldn't question their loyalties?
Arab countries are within their right to question the allegiance of their population when their local population is conspiring (or suspected) against their national interests.
Do I need to remind you the Japanese internment camps in the United States?
It's 1956, it was before the mass surveillance era, internment and expelling was a valid solution when you stop a literal terrorist plot.
Yes and what a glorious state it will be. Here is how much land Palestinians have now (Famous image shown to Obama)
https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/...
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-...
Here is the prompt:
``` "Please analyze the given article to determine if it exhibits a pro-Zionist bias. Consider the following factors: the author's background and affiliations, the language and tone used, the presence of one-sided arguments, the sources and evidence provided, the framing and context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and any potential biases or gaps in the article's viewpoint. Additionally, compare the article with other sources presenting different perspectives to gain a more comprehensive understanding. Based on your analysis, provide a clear assessment of whether the article can be considered pro-Zionist or not."
```
Your comment:
``` ``` Bizarre is viewing Israel as "oppressor" for disengaging entirely from Gaza, dismantling is own Israeli settlements despite massive protests by the seller movements, and only imposing a blockade once a terrorist group took absolute control (and threw Gays and Fatah opponents off rooftops to their deaths) Not to mention the "blockade" is in fact Israel closing its own borders and Gaza has a third border with another country (Egypt). ```
GPT response:
``` This comment appears to be a Zionist talking point. The comment is trying to justify Israel’s actions in Gaza by portraying it as a victim of terrorism and a benevolent actor that has disengaged from Gaza and dismantled its own settlements. However, this is a misleading portrayal of the situation.
Firstly, Israel’s disengagement from Gaza in 2005 was not an act of benevolence. Rather, it was a strategic move to consolidate Israel’s hold over the West Bank and to avoid the demographic threat posed by the Palestinian population1. Moreover, Israel’s disengagement was not complete, as it continued to control Gaza’s borders, airspace, and territorial waters2.
Secondly, Israel’s imposition of a blockade on Gaza was not a response to terrorism, but rather a collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza3. The blockade has caused immense suffering to the people of Gaza, who are denied access to basic necessities such as food, medicine, and electricity4. The blockade has also severely restricted the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza, which has had a devastating impact on the economy and the livelihoods of the people5.
Finally, the comment’s reference to Egypt’s border with Gaza is misleading. While it is true that Gaza has a border with Egypt, this border is also subject to restrictions imposed by Israel and Egypt. Moreover, Egypt’s border with Gaza is not a viable alternative to Israel’s blockade, as it is also subject to restrictions and is not equipped to handle the volume of goods and people that need to pass through.
In conclusion, the comment is a Zionist talking point that seeks to justify Israel’s actions in Gaza by distorting the facts. The reality is that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is a collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza, and has caused immense suffering to the people of Gaza. It is important to recognize this reality and to work towards a just and lasting solution to the conflict. ```
I'm seriously thinking of analyzing this thread, flagging all the zionist accounts as it's the same accounts replying and repeating the same lies and debunking those lies via GPT.
Comparing the Gaza blockade to other blockades is ridiculous.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-ma...
Over 60 discriminatory laws exist, here is a few passed between 2009-2012 alone https://www.adalah.org/uploads/2009-2012_Discriminatory_laws...
You can read more about the systemic 2nd class treatment of "Israeli Arabs" here https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-... Most links refer to zionist newspapers and laws in case you need more references.
2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the UN reported 1,385.
2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the UN reported 2,251.
2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the UN reported 256.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-death-toll-records-1.7010...
I'd say Hamas numbers have been reliable based on past conflicts. So, I don't know why you're dismissing them.
>> Given that context, the IDF for sure can still lie, but most likely they will eventually be found out.
Tell me more about the accountability and the cost of those lies and crimes by the IDF. How many IDF soldiers rot in prison for the crimes they committed and the crimes that have been documented by HRW? It's zero.
Even when the crimes are fully recorded, they get a handful of months and a commuted sentence.
Israel tried to do in Gaza what they did in the West Bank. Carve it up, control key resources, create settlements through terrorism and encroach daily on Palestinian territory.
Their settler-colonial crimes are well documented in the West Bank but Israel didn't have enough people and resources at the time to carry crimes both in the West Bank and Gaza.
I have more trust in those organizations as well as former IDF soldiers (who overcame the brainwashing, grew a conscience and spoke up) than the repeated lies in the zionist controlled media (40 babies? who lies about stuff like that?).
You can read more about resistance under international law and how it's defined by the U.N charter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_resist#:~:text=Based%....
Again, I will take that definition over the definition of a resistance movement by a military occupation.
if living under a blockade or under military occupation is your idea of peace, no wonder people are resisting.
Israel is not interested in peace, they're interested in submission.
the same way the French resisted against the Nazis or the algerians against the French occupation.
I don't hear french resistance being called terrorists despite sabotage operations, assassinations of nazi personnel and executing collaborators.
they carried a successful military raid, captured hostages and exchanged them for Palestinian hostages.
I completely reject the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group by countries that won't even join the international criminal court to protect their war criminals.
the level of inhumane treatment approved and supported by the west is what woke a lot of people up.
you can support post zionist voices in the Israel Knesset advocating for reform while still condemning Israel apartheid state and the zionist lobby influence in western countries.
You can support the Palestinian Resistance against the military occupation while still condemning terrorist tactics.
The notion that the population of Gaza deserves this because they voted for Hamas once in 2007 has been repeated by both Israeli and Western officials and corporate media. The same exact argument used by Bin Laden to legetimize targeting civilians because we voted for known war criminals and are "democratic societies".
It went viral on tiktok and people were shocked that the letter enumerated arguments about middle-east interference (war crimes) and Israeli conflict (war crimes and genocide) despite being written in 2002. People started making the "wrong conclusions" about their elected representatives, the values we pretend to uphold and the fact norms and values are often overshadowed by the pursuit of national interests with no regard for human rights or morality.
Realpolitik and power politics are a cancer.
I'm sorry zionists thought that they could steal people's land, force them out of their homes, kill the ones who resist, put the rest behind a fence, treat them for generations with no humanity and act surprised when they hop the fence, return to their homes and still have the house keys to massacre the intruders and thiefs occupying their property. Unlike Israel, Hamas doesn't have a prison system where they can lock up Israeli children and show them the same level of "humane treatment" your government shows to Palestinian children caged up.
I'm also sorry I can't keep going back and forth like this because I don't believe I will be changing your mind and you won't be changing mine at this point. The footage I'm witnessing is only indicative of a slow methodical genocide happening and no amount of rhetoric is going to convince me that bombing hospitals to plug some tunnel exit hole (or destroy some weapons depot or whatever excuse) is justified. Simple as that.
This level of carnage and punishment on the whole population is not justified. I have no power to stop it but I certainly won't allow Israel to wash off all the blood with empty rhetoric, forgive and forget. This will mark your civilization the same way Germany has been marked by the Nazi regime and in both cases, deservedly so. Except unlike Germans, you will never learn or grow from this, instead you will continue to play victim.
Force is the only thing you will respect and is why Hamas exists. Until Israel starts treating others with a semblance of humanity, there will never be peace.
If you visit Canada, feel free to say hi. Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to go commit war crimes. Only a few weeks vacation to commit atrocities and he will be back. Of course, no one will call him a terrorist or war criminal or hold him accountable; hell, he even gets called "Canadian" despite not hesitating to obey the orders of a foreign government.
All cool and normal.
A lot of people share concerns regarding potential escalation in the region, although I hold a different perspective on Israel's vulnerability to annihilation. There may be retaliatory actions, yet it is evident that the United States is providing support, as demonstrated by the presence of two (or three) carriers ready for engagement. On the other hand, Gaza faces a significant threat of annihilation. I do agree with you that the likelihood of Canada experiencing war is low, with the primary concerns being terrorism within our borders or the possibility of a nuclear strike.
>> We absolutely hate the UN
And, also, the ICC (Internal Criminal Court) apparently. Along with a few countries like: United States , China , Russia , India , Indonesia , Israel , Sudan , North Korea , Syria.
The resolutions are often a response to actions taken by Israel that are perceived as violations of international law or hindrances to peace efforts. It is not a matter of bias against Israel, but rather an attempt to hold all nations accountable for their actions. Although there are many Arab nations, the resolutions are passed based on the consensus or majority vote of the member states, which includes a wide range of nations with different perspectives and interests.
Dismissing the U.N as a biased organization isolates Israel on the international stage. Perhaps it doesn't matter given the emphasis on catering to the United States as the primary base of support and main audience.
>> Israel withdrew from Gaza
I believe statements like this is where you and I will strongly disagree.
When I see snipers shooting children who are fenced up, shooting medical personnel, shooting journalists, all deliberate, done with intent by IDF snipers; I don't call that withdrawing from Gaza.
This is the video I'm talking about: https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=2673 explaining the practice of picking targets and killing them. Explained by General Zvika Fogel
This is a recorded video of the practice and performed by Israeli snipers: https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=2844
This explains how food is restricted or as Israel puts it: "Putting Gaza on a diet" (2006) - Dov Weisglass, an adviser to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=464 by only allowing 4 hours of electricity per day (cannot store food) and watching the caloric intake requirements to avoid malnutrition.
This was all filmed in Gaza around 2018/2019. You are welcome to watch the rest if you find the time; I hope those short segments change your perspective.
We have many problems with indegenous tribes in Canada (long history) but they are not fenced up, blockaded, shot at and bombed. This is what Israel snipers remind me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0DqnUk90lo and why Israel is condemned internationally.
While I may not fully endorse Hamas, I hesitate to label it as a terrorist organization without further examination. Instances of violence, as depicted in the video mentioned and recognized by numerous U.N resolutions, involving IDF soldiers and the actions of "settlers" in the West Bank, are acts of terrorism.
When you watch those video segments, do you still believe Israel is a nation interested in peace? Because all I see is a nation interested in the degradation, humiliation and brutalization of people. Israel certainly doesn't get to act outraged when Palestinians resist and fight back against that type of oppression and occupation.
A few definitions so words still have meaning because they easily get distorted in this conflict:
``` A terrorist is an individual who engages in acts of violence, typically targeting civilians or non-combatants, with the intention of instilling fear, spreading terror, and advancing a particular political, ideological, or religious agenda. These acts are usually carried out as a form of asymmetric warfare, where the perpetrators lack the conventional military power to engage in direct conflicts.
A terrorist state, also known as a state sponsor of terrorism, refers to a nation that provides financial, logistical, or ideological support to terrorist organizations. Such states may offer safe havens, training facilities, weapons, funding, or even intelligence to terrorist groups, enabling them to carry out their activities. This support can be motivated by various political, ideological, or strategic interests.
```
Since no international governmental body can, I genuinely hope Israeli individuals can hold their government accountable through democracy and better access to information/education.
Again, I'm 100% open to new material if you want to share your perspective and change minds.
First, I didn't know you were Israeli. I live in Canada, far from the conflict and although it has been going on for decades, this moment feels different. It feels we are witnessing collective punishment on a large scale (and it's only beginning) and no one is attempting to de-escalate or even consider the future and its ramifications.
Having said that, I don't live under an "iron dome" and my life is not at risk; so, I can sympathize but will not be commenting on that as I have no lived experience of that level of stress and anxiety. No one deserves to live like that.
In Canada and many western countries, the media is biased towards Israel and the double speak to hide the truth and remove context is off the charts. When comparing the coverage with the Ukraine conflict, there is a silence similar to the Saudi's genocide in Yemen. You don't hear from Yemeni people, you don't see coverage from their perspective. It's the same thing now with people in Gaza. Compare this to Ukraine where we had the stories/experiences of individuals constantly relayed in the corporate media.
>> it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace
I completely disagree with that. Again, I see little to no good will from Israel. There are no humanitarian corridors open. People cannot escape. People can go south but even the Rafah (Egypt's border) area was bombed and they also bomb the south of the city in general. I will spare you repeating the talks of dehumanization, eradication from your democratically elected government officials as you've already expressed more empathy than any of them towards civilian lives.
But, I completely reject the notion that this violence is happening in a vaccuum and that Israel didn't play a role in causing this. Again, not alone here, as there are at least 15 U.N resolutions condemning Israel in 2022 alone and of course, vetoed by the U.S.
When I read about the lives of people in Gaza (before October 2023), I'm not surprised a movement of resistance like Hamas emerged. Gaza is under a blockade, their movement is restricted, their trade and goods are restricted, electricity, food etc. and it has been like that for years. It's why it's compared to a prison and Israel is its warden, literally. Israel shows little regard for Palestinian lives and they are treated more like a pest to be managed than the long distant cousins they are.
The lie is: Gaza has been left alone and the people/government have failed to make something of themselves. Meanwhile, I read/watch the lives of people in Gaza (very little footage as many journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza by Israel and are accused of being propagandists) and I can't even imagine how I would live my life under those circumstances without resorting to violence, radicalization or desperation.
Here are two videos that influenced me:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw4CH-Jg6lY This was filmed before October 2023 and shows the reality of the blockade, the lives of people in Gaza and their resourcefulness despite the safety/economic constraints.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZSaKYmP2s This was filmed in 2019, mostly in the west bank (which is a whole other disaster) and convinced me about Israel's intent and its so called "good will". I watched it when I heard Abby Martin on the Joe Rogan podcast. I haven't watched since.
Feel free to educate me if you have good material / videos / projects / initiatives you'd like to share that would change my perspective and help put an end to this conflict.
My wish for you is to find security and peace, and I hope that it will not come at the expense of many lives.
From the foreign press: https://www.ifj.org/media-centre/news/detail/category/middle...
If you are wondering why, here are the absurd reasons used:
- lack of electricity / internet. No one heard of generators and starlink satellites?
- Israel wants to prevent fake news and propaganda. This backfires as when a hospital gets bombed, we can't know who did it since there are no independent journalists on the ground. It sure doesn't help when your high officials brag about it on twitter.
"Initial posts on X sent by Hananya Naftali, a digital aide to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, aroused suspicion. “Israeli Air Force struck a Hamas terrorist base inside a hospital in Gaza,” he wrote, but the post was almost immediately deleted."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-na...
- Israel cannot guarantee the safety of journalists. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-journalists-safety-israel... Looks pretty bad when an IDF soldier shoots a journalist https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/11/shireen-abu-akleh-i... Of course, guaranteeing journalists safety doesn't seem to be an issue in conflicts like Ukraine.
Israel is afraid of the international scrutiny and condemnation that would follow if the world saw the true extent of the suffering and devastation in Gaza
So, better hide it.
It's not new. Food insecurity has been an issue for years.
The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵. According to the World Food Program (WFP), more than 60% of households in Gaza are food insecure and rely on humanitarian assistance⁵. The blockade has also affected the availability and quality of food in Gaza, as many products are scarce, expensive or expired⁵.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p...
>> how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it?
I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide:
- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evide...
- https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/28/kilj-o28.html
>> It's not indiscriminate shooting.
The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks and how they use them to traffic weapons, goods and people to circumvent the blockades. That's the source of their power and bombing buildings changes little to Hamas infrastructure or leadership (which is in Qatar/overseas). Even destroying civilian infrastructure like cell towers and Internet does little. Hamas uses hardwired lines and radios as again, the city is small enough to be called a prison and they are fully aware of Israeli digital surveillance.
Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no.
>> If and they give up armed resistance, there could be peace tomorrow. The Palestinians have had many deals put forward and chose to continue fighting.
Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration.
But, I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development.
Any palestinian allowed to work are usually limited to agriculture and construction sector and often restricted to the occupied / settler zones.
I want to define "Grassroots Peacebuilding" clearly because it's something I'm interested in and I believe in the power of individuals: "Prioritizing grassroots initiatives that bring Israelis and Palestinians together for dialogue, joint projects, and community-building activities can help build trust and understanding from the ground up. This approach emphasizes the power of individuals and communities to drive change."
>> Egypt is also blockading Gaza. No one is blaming Egypt, and no one is committing terror acts against Egypt. Why is that?
People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion.
Egypt is blockading Gaza (as evidenced by the fact the border was only open for 23 days in 2022) https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/6/15/the-seven-borde...
The rationale for the Egypt blockade as I understand is:
- Egypt considers Hamas a threat as it is an offshoot of the Muslism Brotherhood which was ousted from power in 2013.
- Egypt accuses Hamas of supporting militant groups in the Sinai Peninsula, where Egypt has been fighting a long insurgency https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co...
- Egypt also wants to maintain its peace treaty with Israel, which it signed in 1979. By preserving the status quo of the blockade until a lasting solution is foudn, Egypt maintains its role as a mediator and is not undermined by siding with one party over the other. It also continues to benefit from economic and military aid from the United States https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co... and avoids fueling the conflict which could spill into its borders as it already hosts millions of refugees from conflicts in Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia etc.
Please note I have to get going with my day but I will reply later.
Thank you
Edit: because I got my links mixed up
keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new.
there is no such thing as eradicating hamas because Israel and its policies are a recruitment tool. This conflict will continue and the children today will be fighting in a few years because what choice do they have than resist.
The palestinians don't hide that their high fertility rate is politically motivated and have structured their society to marry young and have a lot of children as it is an act of Resistance.
not all children make it, the malnutrition rate was around 15%. again, all caused by Israel as they have control major aspects of that open air prison.
I think if you are shooting fish in a barrel and the international community lets you do it, you don't get to complain about the splashes and you certainly shouldn't be claiming the moral high ground.
no matter how much the politicians or corporate mainstream media keep repeating it, Israel and its apartheid genocidal policies don't have international support.
many sectors of the economy are just oligopolies or straight up monopoly in some places